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Even on Fathers' Day, Media Find a Way to Bash Men

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posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
It's not a few i've met. In my life i have pretty much alwys had female friends, i get on with them better for some reason, and i have to say that most are like it and lots of them know and agree that they're like it lol. It wasn't an assumption, it's what i've seen, assumption is based on no knowledge or a very limited kind.

I should have clarified: I wasn't trying to imply that a few girls YOU knew were this way. I was trying to say that out of EVERY WOMAN in the United States, the women you've met through your life represents a fraction of the national number.



My womans magazine comment wasn't hypothetical though, it was based on ones i have picked up and read when bored at the dentist or doctor.

I said hypothetical because I was referring to more than one. I meant Maxim, FHM, Stuff, the like.



No i don't think we're as bad as people are claiming but women are getting worse in my view.

This is actually where I started getting sad. I was referencing us, as in, humanity. My comment was, "I'm glad to see so many people looking deep into this issue. Humanity isn't as bad off as people say." The fact that you sprung from there to go into this:



Materialistic gain drives women even more than men i think. Men see it as a success thing women only want those men who've gained lots of material worth. It goes back to the old evolutionary drive of wanting someone who can provide for their children i suppose but i still find it a worrying trend.



It has nothing to do with evolution. MEN ran the society that made money allpowerful. Not women. MEN ran the society that fought to spread religion that oppressed anyone who wasn't them. MEN ran the society that refused to give women the right to vote. MEN ran the ad firms who created those commercials in the 1920's and 30's and 40's and 50's that created this so-called "materialistic drive" that's oh-so-present in women.

If you're going to stick with that old '50's philosophy and assume you know what really drives women, then why don't we just go on and ASSUME what these women are buying. Clothes, furniture, purses, makeup, accessorries!! Things to put on because the society around them (run by MEN remember) continuously tells them that's what they NEED.

What do men frivolously spend their money on? So long as we're assuming! Cars, videogames, strippers, beer, sports, geek hobbies. Dates. All of these things are for self gratification. Women are preyed upon by way of emotional response. Men are preyed upon by way of boredom.

What's fair about that?

I probably assume wrong, though. And so do you.



I'm sorry i sounded so cynical of women, i love women as i said nearly all my friends are women! However it does give me some informed insight i think.

And here's the coup de grace, actually recognizing and pointing out how you sound, then justifying it immediately. If you heard a woman make a general comment about men then said they have some insight because nearly all their friends are men, what would you say? I'd hate to assume that "uppity" would be the first word of your response.



At the same time men are getting lost, unable to discern what their role should be. In my time i've been called a chauvanistic pig for holding a door open for a woman, and another time called an insensitive tosser for not holding a door open. You can't win


You certainly can. It starts with appealing to an individual woman's likes and dislikes, not what you've come to expect all women to appreciate.




posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by joecamel
I should have clarified: I wasn't trying to imply that a few girls YOU knew were this way. I was trying to say that out of EVERY WOMAN in the United States, the women you've met through your life represents a fraction of the national number.


True but i take the women i know as a test sample, just like any good survey
Btw i'm in the UK.


Originally posted by joecamel
This is actually where I started getting sad. I was referencing us, as in, humanity. My comment was, "I'm glad to see so many people looking deep into this issue. Humanity isn't as bad off as people say." The fact that you sprung from there to go into this:


I'm aware you were referencing humanity but i was talking about women so i continued in that vain.


Originally posted by joecamel
It has nothing to do with evolution. MEN ran the society that made money all powerful. Not women. MEN ran the society that fought to spread religion that oppressed anyone who wasn't them. MEN ran the society that refused to give women the right to vote. MEN ran the ad firms who created those commercials in the 1920's and 30's and 40's and 50's that created this so-called "materialistic drive" that's oh-so-present in women.


Wow wow hold on there matey. I was going back to a time when we didn't have money, i was quoting social evolutionary biologists, psychologists and various sociologists. There was a study not long ago that stated women were more likely to cheat on a financially succesful partner, if that partner had a weak body. That way they havea strong genetic offspring from a strong partner, and let the financially well emdowed partner to bring it up.

So it's a deep seated genetic drive by the looks of things which has been translated to the modern age. In the old times it would be the man with the best hut, strogest family and most food that a woman chose to raise her offspring. Now it's the man with the best house and who can provide a playstation.

Not that part was said slightly tongue in cheek don't leap on me over it.


Originally posted by joecamel
If you're going to stick with that old '50's philosophy and assume you know what really drives women, then why don't we just go on and ASSUME what these women are buying. Clothes, furniture, purses, makeup, accessorries!! Things to put on because the society around them (run by MEN remember) continuously tells them that's what they NEED.


'50s philosophy? Man you have no clue about me at all you've just completely taken what i said well out of context, innocent mistake i think but it is a mistake. I'm here favoring equality so don't say my attitude is '50s.


Originally posted by joecamel
What do men frivolously spend their money on? So long as we're assuming! Cars, videogames, strippers, beer, sports, geek hobbies. Dates. All of these things are for self gratification. Women are preyed upon by way of emotional response. Men are preyed upon by way of boredom.


Did i mention what women spend their money on? You could clear the grand canyon with your leaps.



Originally posted by joecamel
And here's the coup de grace, actually recognizing and pointing out how you sound, then justifying it immediately. If you heard a woman make a general comment about men then said they have some insight because nearly all their friends are men, what would you say? I'd hate to assume that "uppity" would be the first word of your response.


Actually i hear it all the time, my friends are women remember
It doesn't bother me in truth because i tend to agree on their view of men, hence why i have more female friends. See there is method to my madness



Originally posted by joecamel
You certainly can. It starts with appealing to an individual woman's likes and dislikes, not what you've come to expect all women to appreciate.


Hey i get it right most of the time but anyone can guess wrong
Although i have to say, fitting yourself around a person seems to suggest you aren't showing the real you, what can i say, i was taught to open a door for anyone not just women, i was told it's polite. Not sure i'll change that.

My point was the role of men has been drastically altered and now men are being attacked as the OP points out.



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 09:03 PM
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I just realised we are taking this rather off thread, if you want to start a new one i'll happily comment on it. Just pm me with the address.



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 10:45 PM
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reply to post by Cowgirlstraitup7
 


Well, the "metrosexualization" of men is quite different from what Grady was referring to, and so is Paisley's song (which is an awesome song, btw, I absolutely love Brad Paisley). Grady was just talking about the imbalance of the portrayal of genders in the media.

Personally, live and let live is my philosophy, and I really don't care how people carry out their lives as long as they're good people.

We all just carry way too much of a chip on our shoulders and the responses to this thread proves it. I agree with you all on an emotional level, but on a practical level, who cares? I like being a "real man" and that's how I do, just as some metrosexual kind of guy does it his way.



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 10:54 PM
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women have been putting up with this crap for hundreds of years. this might just be simple blowback. doesn't make it any more right to do to men...shouldn't be done to anyone...but maybe now at least you all can empathize.

or you might just be being too sensitive...take your example about the man with a burglar downstairs. that's a perfectly possible reaction, much as you all might like to think you're all macho freaks. everyone gets startled or scared, especially woken up out of a dead sleep.

let's not be too sensitive is my overall reaction. makes you look...um not so macho.



[edit on 15-6-2008 by ~Lucidity]



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 11:18 PM
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Actually, let me continue my part in this discussion because this whole topic is something I have spent a lot of time studying and I want to give my overall perspective on the matter.

What I am seeing in this thread, as I alluded to in the post prior, are a lot of sensitive men (and women) who carry a major chip on their shoulder. But more importantly, I am seeing in some people a real belief in the idea of the image and the role. This is not surprising, as all of us want to look good and play a particular role in our lives. We all have something we want to do and be, whether on our own accord or because we were brought up that way. This is best summed up by Rockpuck's position on the matter:



This society has a problem with the male image, male father figures and male status's in relationships.


I am no different. My own father is a person who believes in the concept of "man's work" and "women's work" with the very fiber of his being. I never bought into it, however, and its actually a major point of resentment. Instead, through hearing the lessons of others, I am constantly reminded of the old adage "we cannot have everything we want."

I guess we are all different types of people, but at the end of the day, I am what you call a "Final Score Guy." In other words, as long as we win, as long as the end result is good, I had a good day. I will do my best and give it every effort, but the end result is all that really matters. My own role and my own performance is secondary to that end result. If achieving that end result means that I have to be uncomfortable and outside of my zone for a little bit, so be it.

How does this apply to this situation? Some of you talk about what a man should do and a woman should do. Sorry to disappoint you men, but I happen to be a very good cook. Not just on the grill, but on the stove, with the oven, as well as the microwave. I also happen to clean things very well. That's what happens if you become a firefighter, you have to cook for yourself and clean a building many times larger than your own house. I can also wash my own clothes. I believe any person, man or woman, is responsible for ALL of his or her personal belongings. Its just this whole individual responsibility thing I believe in. A man does not need a woman to make him look good, just as a woman will say she doesn't need a man to tell her how to look. At the same time, I can do any heavy-lifting job, I can paint the house, I can fix many things, I can fish, all of these "man tasks."

What does this amount to? Well, I am basically Indiana Jones. I am self-sufficient. From what some like Rockpuck say, it seems like if there was no woman in your life, your clothes would smell, your house would be a junkyard, and you'd die of starvation. That's obviously an exaggeration, but that's definitely the inference if you put an unnecessary emphasis on images and status.

To me, something like what Rockpuck says is actually the antithesis of the man. A man, in my view, is capable of handling anything life throws his way. If he needs to paint the house, he'll paint the house. If the floor needs to be mopped, he'll mop it like nobody else can. If he's hungry, he can either catch or fix his own meal and it will be sufficient. If the car needs to be fixed, he'll fix it up to be better than it was before. That's a real man. He can do anything he sets his mind to, he can do whatever has to be done. A husband will do whatever it takes for his wife and a father will do whatever it takes for his children.

Going back to the idea of the "Final Score," a real man will never grumble about his role, his status, and his image, as long as his family (and I guess his friends) make it through and meet their needs. Sure, the man's needs have to be met as well, after all he is a human, but a real man will put his image and status second to the well-being of his family and friends. If that means he has to buck tradition and take on some roles a man is not accustomed to, the man will do it. And the man is not ashamed. As long as he has a happy, healthy family behind him, what else could he ask for? Screw that image and status. His family is happy and he happens to be happy as well.

Finally, I want to paraphrase a Marine who was a Vietnam veteran. In one of his books a few years back, he said in his afterword that a real man is not afraid to show his feelings when the time is appropriate. That means he is not afraid to cry when it is time to cry, he will live his life on his terms and not by someone else's, and he is also not afraid to share how he feels about something - just as I have.

To all the men who read this, relax. The media has a funny way of doing things. Its not to be taken seriously, and believe me, sometimes its just more enjoyable that way. Why not enjoy it and learn to poke fun at ourselves instead of proving them right, that we are all a bunch of bitter, bumbling, evil men? Seriously, Home Improvement would not have been as funny as it was if not for Tim "The Toolman" Taylor being the butt of every joke in the show. At the end of the day, its how you look at yourself in the mirror that matters, not how others look at you. Even if its your family. Its a fact of life, we all work around it together.

Those who disagree, you can strip me of my manlihood now.



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 11:21 PM
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Originally posted by ~Lucidity
women have been putting up with this crap for hundreds of years. this might just be simple blowback. doesn't make it any more right to do to men...shouldn't be done to anyone...but maybe now at least you all can empathize.

or you might just be being too sensitive...take your example about the man with a burglar downstairs. that's a perfectly possible reaction, much as you all might like to think you're all macho freaks. everyone gets startled or scared, especially woken up out of a dead sleep.

let's not be too sensitive is my overall reaction. makes you look...um not so macho.



[edit on 15-6-2008 by ~Lucidity]


You get the stars for that post.

I was absolutely amazed when the burglar example was brought up. What a horrible example. This is not the movies, people in real-life tend to be very afraid when faced with a threatening, unfamiliar situation. It would actually be very stupid to attack a burglar without knowing what kinds of weapons he would have - thus proving, ironically, that men may actually be bumbling and incompetent.


Your last line was the best. The oversensitivity of men is more detrimental to our image and status than anything the media could dream up.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 12:36 AM
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Sorry I am replying anonymously, I can't remember my password. (and I'm too tired to mess with getting the reminder. Lol) My normal username is MaMaa.


I see what you mean, but I have a hard time getting worked up about it. I have been treated like I am incompetent, incapable and some how not quite bright enough to do things on my own all my life. If I talk to a guy about my car they talk down to me as if I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about. This isn't unique to men, this still happens to women.

On the other hand I think it is all wrong. It doesn't matter if it is towards men or women, it is wrong. I have four young boys of my own and I am doing my best to do my part with them. I will not raise men who treat women the way I was and still do get treated. But on the other hand I will raise them to be confident and strong in their own abilities despite what anyone says. Too many parents let the little attitudes slide, the little comments towards one sex or the other. Eventually those little comments add up and create an attitude. It is our job as parents to make sure the attitudes we create are balanced and respectful of each other. Basing our feelings and judgments of who someone is based on character and actions, not what their sex is.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 12:55 AM
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reply to post by GradyPhilpott
 


I can't believe this post has been so highly starred and flagged so many times! I have not read the responses because all that I glanced over were jumping on the bandwagon of one sidedness.

Do you not see how commercials portray _every_ one this way? Women are portrayed far more stupid than men... and always have been. A big difference in the portrayals are though, that usually when they portray men as being dumb... it is done as humor...... when they portray women... it is done as merely factual. This thread certainly does not deserve to be so highly flagged and starred........ makes me lose faith in this site.

It goes both ways. It has nothing to do with women having rights and freedoms and individuality as human beings as the first responses and the OP suggested.

That's all I care to contribute to this "poor me" thread. I'm outta here, have fun with the pitty-party.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 01:04 AM
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Reminds me of a Billy Connelly quote: ....."the White Hetrosexual Male is the only thing that can still be made fun out of without complaints or a protest the next day".



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 01:27 AM
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reply to post by dreams n chains
 


Poverty of thought is a tragic condition, as is the refusal to consider the full intent of an idea.

The thread is about a site I visited to find out about the history of Fathers' Day.

Right smack in the middle of that article were links to articles that were highly critical of men.

This seemed like a cruel irony.

It called to mind observations of my own regarding the media and the portrayal of men, so I researched articles by others who have noted the same thing and included those articles as links.

The original post requires some effort to fully understand, although the concept is simple. You have to read my comments and weigh them in the context of the articles which I have cited and in the context of your own experience.

I admit that that takes time and effort, but by making that effort I do believe that the original post will have more meaning.

One of our members thought that it was comical that I would cite a cartoon to support my claims, but this member did not carefully read the material or he would have known that I did not reference the article in question. The article I cited referenced the article in question and what is more, the article in question had nothing to do with the cartoon which he assumed was the case.

You are welcome to move on and refuse to consider the totality of my post. That would be your choice, but you might also try relieving yourself of your preconceptions and read the original article, complete with the links provided and try to understand what the point of the post really is.

Obviously, a good number of members went to that trouble and understood that first and foremost the post was a tribute to our member fathers and an analysis of why in an article explaining the origins of Fathers' Day the publisher chose to include articles that disparage all men to one extent or another and having done so these members saw fit to flag the thread and offer stars to contributors.

You are welcome to disparage my work, but you should at least read the material adequately, so that you don't make yourself look so ill-informed.

[edit on 2008/6/16 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 01:35 AM
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Its truly sad that the "superior" sex STILL has to be portrayed "watered down" to make women and girls feel comfortable and equal. This cannot be tolerated.

Don't you dare get on my case. If this was coming from a Muslim or a woman you wouldn't say anything would you?

My point is this. "Women's Suffrage" in itself is demeaning. As is "affirmative action". Both were made for times PAST, not PRESENT. Get rid of them, and organizations such as NAACP, AICF, ANCF, etc, and let everyone be equal. The only thing organizations like these are doing now is SEPERATING people. Everytime the media tries to do the same thing in television, movies, etc, they are just fueling the fire. NOBODY should be portrayed as an idiot to make everyone else feel "better" about themselves. Its no longer necessary.

As for my opening statement: Everyone should know how ridiculous this sounds in the real world!

[edit on 16-6-2008 by CreeWolf]



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 01:51 AM
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LOL! I litterally started laughing over that. I bet you the author was some moron extremist feminist ( And I mean extremist ones, not the proper ones who are doing an admirable thing ).

It's only the mainstream news - written mostly by a pack of dick heads anyway.

[edit on 16/6/2008 by C0bzz]



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 07:06 AM
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I agree that the stereotypical portrayal of men these days, especially white men, has gone too far. Hey, I like the Simpsons, and Homer sure is funny, but it has also been my experience that many people out there want to buy into that stereotype, and it is getting old. How about the blonde bully in far too many movies from the original Karate Kid to Transformers this last summer. That is another stereotype that has ran its course. Sadly, political correctness has gotten to the point where, now, everything is sacred, which means nothing is sacred.


I certainly get tired of reading articles about how men still don't carry their load when it comes to household chores, when most men I know in families do far more of the work around the house, not only sharing in cooking and cleaning, but yard work, automotive maintenance, and general handiman type work around the house.

When it comes to divorce, the laws in this country are down right pure and blatantly discriminatory. This is swinging back more towards reason, but the effort now seems to be taking as much money as possible from the family to support the court system. The courts seem to be saying to women, you can have it all, and a fat chunk of his future earnings, all you have to do is come to us.

It isn't all bad though. If you ever watch "Sex and the City", a show about women, bascally, by women, if I am correct, men are potrayed as respectfully as the women. The men are every bit the equals of the women in the show, so these issues really go deeper than sexist discrimintation. Then again, it seems to me that most women do not care for "Two and a Half Men", which pokes fun at both sexes fairly equally, and even takes a fair shot at motherhood. I suspect women in general are not as good at dealing with being made fun of as men are. Kind of goes back to the old adage about hanging with the boys, as boys tend to play rough, and that applies to how we poke fun of each other as well.

The thing is, with everyone playing the victim these days with political correctness, the cold hard truth, that can be found in humor, that is kicked around by these one sided opinion pieces, is the baby thrown out with the bath water.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 07:46 AM
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OMG! You mean in a sitcom there is a comic relief? No, you don't say... What's next, a quirky neighbor in tv sitcoms? Or a mean demanding boss? WHat is this world coming to?

Ahem, if your kids learn from TV you have a lot more problems then the men/fathers being the comic relief in TV shows.

BTW, making men look dumb in commercials and tv shows is not like Earth shattering or anything. The wife/mother is always uberhot, as is the eldest daughter. One son will be a goofball, one a jock. And the stereotypes go on with more children. You will have the nerd, then the goth, then bleh. Its called a type cast.

Here is how a sitcom/commercial is made.

Male Figure is dumb but sweet, kind, and handy around the house


Femal Figure is hot as hell no matter how many kids she's popped out and is smarter but is almost always at home mother even though she is supposed to be so smart. Also she is helpless with anything that deals with cars and handy work.

Eldest Daughter is HOT, boy crazy, and the father is always over protective and embarrasses her at every moment

Eldest Son, this one depends. If only one male son it can be split between the different types but if more then one this one is usually the jock but dumb.

Next in line Son, usually nerdy, really smart, but jealous of older brother for his looks and skills in sports that draws girls unlike his skills in Dungeons and Dragons and computer programming.

Also, notice almost NEVER do they have more then one daughter but usually have more than one son. Why? You only need one hot teenage girl to draw the teen and young adult males to the show.

You people are looking WAY to in to this. Its called marketing. You make a show about a smart handsome leading male and a fat ugly dumd drooling and knuckle dragging leading female and you don't have a show. People want to see the man be dumber then the wife but sweet and heart warming when it counts while seeing a hot wife no matter how many kids she's had.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by Krieger]



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by GradyPhilpott
 



I am sorry, but since I do not watch TV, and both myself and my wife treat one another as intellectual equals, we are not partial to this attemp at shaping society. We remain extremely competitive, keep ourselves educated and as a result continue to shape our own destinies, rather than become the dumb images of sexist television shows and commercials.

I do have to say though, that if you pay too much attention to the "dumb men" on TV, you will not see the equally "dumb women" that are found in equal proportion.

I look at it this way...If everyone is going to allow themselves to be shaped by this "dumbing down", life is going to become a lot easier for me and my wife!

So give the people who are doing this and the dummies being a part of it a slap on the ass for me and tell them "good job!"



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 09:20 AM
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Although this topic is very serious, I see it as a (unnecessary) three sided situation where one side opposes the other while another side observes and manipulates.

That's right, Divide and Conquer.

Please understand that the two Human concepts of Masculinity and Femininity are direct manifestations of Ying and Yang, whereby one needs the other to achieve a state of equilibrium, balance, peace. But what do we do, we reference specific events in history to shove the other side of the cliff in a battle of morals, when all that serves is bring forth more tension, imbalance. History should be looked upon as a lesson, rather than tugging it back into experience.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 09:41 AM
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fathers day is just a waste of time, no one cares, people have zero respect for fathers in this life and so celebrating a day for someone who is marganalized and ostracised is just pathetic.

Im a father. I think they should end this redicculous sham of a holiday.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 12:49 PM
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I think they lean towards the side of the feminazi's,I raised my 4 kids by myself for 6 yrs with no help from their mother,things used to be different when I was a kid,guess some women need to portray their worthiness,just because us men are higher paid no need to bash



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by GradyPhilpott
 


Hmm, seems to me that all we are seeing is just a counterbalance to all the centuries of woman-bashing. Probably because there are more females in the media in high positions that programming is a bit more man-unfriendly.
Basically, I have listened to men denigrating their woman for most of my life. Since women have become more outspoken and less subservient, this trend has changed and rightly so, I must say.
I am a man, and I am deffo not one of those soapy, well-dressed groomed sissies, but I do have to say that the balance is more real now, between men and women. The physical strength of women is not so much different from that of men and the mental capacities also not.
This OP to me is a bit whiny and directly supports a part of the theory and practice you so despise

YES, men must be strong fathers and YES, they have to be dependable, but machismo and mental weakness must in my opinion be banned from the male part of society, the boneheaded beer-guzzling "hell-yeah"-shouting rock-fan is a blemish to modern society. Sure, they can be easily manipulated by women, but is that preferable? Not to me it isnt!
Anyway, neither flag nor star from me; we just need to accept some of the crap we have fed women for centuries ourselves now. Fersher we have earned it
.

A real man is neither abusive of women nor stupid. Anyone who is, is not a real man.
Just as sure, a real woman is not abusive of men and neither stupid nor ignorant. Anyone who is is...etc.



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