"The love of money is the root of all evil", page 1

Could that statement possibly be allegorical [Allegorical interpretation is the approach which assigns a higher-than-literal interpretation to the contents of a text (eg Bible)] , referring to what many see as money ultimately providing, power and control?

Now, if you were to interpret it as "The desire for power and control is the root of all evil" wouldn't it apply to all your examples and many, if not all other ills throughout the world?


[edit on 15/6/08 by Mark Harris]

Well said, Mark Harris.

Madness:

now, two questions: what are your thoughts?
and how can a book with such an obviously false statement still be infallible?

Obviously false?

Self-Love and the Sin of Avarice, by Peter A. Kwasniewski (from: catholic.net)



At first, it seems counterintuitive; it does not square with our daily experience, where we see droves of men and women departing from the path of virtue for many reasons that seem to have little to do with the possession of riches.

[...snip]


Perhaps, then, it is time to consider St. Paul’s meaning more carefully, in order to understand better the truth contained in this startling assertion.


[...snip]



In his great work the Summa Theologiae, St. Thomas Aquinas poses the question “Whether self-love is the source of every sin?,” and gives the following answer:


The proper and direct cause of sin is to be considered on the part of the adherence to a mutable good; in which respect every sinful act proceeds from inordinate desire for some temporal good. Now the fact that anyone desires a temporal good inordinately, is due to the fact that he loves himself inordinately; for to wish anyone some good is to love him. Therefore it is evident that inordinate love of self is the cause of every sin.1


This inordinate love of self is manifested, as Thomas shows, primarily in desiring a temporal or material good inordinately, that is, in violation of the order of divine law and human reason, or put in other terms, in contradiction to the demands of virtue and God’s will. Thus every sinful act involves two components: a good thing desired in an evil way or for an evil purpose, and a person who desires to enjoy that good thing despite the damage it will cause to him and the offense it will cause to God. Any creature can become an occasion or instrument of sin if the person using that created thing uses it badly, which is to say uses it against the function it was intended to serve in the Christian life.


[...snip]


In an eloquent passage from his book On Free Choice of the Will, St. Augustine describes what happens when a soul commits the worst error, that of taking itself for its own highest end:


In its contemplation of the highest wisdom — which is not the soul, since wisdom is unchangeable — the changeable soul also looks upon itself and somehow enters its own mind. But this happens only as the soul realizes that it is not the same as God, and yet that it is something that, next to God, can be pleasing. . . .If instead someone takes pleasure in himself and wills to enjoy his own power in a perverse imitation of God, he becomes more and more insignificant as he desires to become greater. This is “pride, the beginning of all sin” (Sir. 10:13); and “the beginning of pride is apostasy from God” (Sir. 10:12.5)


[...snip]


John Henry Newman, “The Danger of Riches.” There he observes:
The most obvious danger which worldly possessions present to our spiritual welfare is, that they become practically a substitute in our hearts for that One Object to which our supreme devotion is due. They are present; God is unseen. They are means at hand of effecting what we want: whether God will hear our petitions for those wants is uncertain; or rather I may say, certain in the negative. Thus they minister to the corrupt inclinations of our nature; they promise and are able to be gods to us, and such gods too as require no service, but, like dumb idols, exalt the worshiper, impressing him with a notion of his own power and security. And in this consist their chief and most subtle mischief.

(all bolding mine -Rren)


Greed/ego/love of self. It's the root of all that's evil... not, all that's evil. Perhaps at 32, I'm still too young to be considered wise. But, the verse in question seems true enough in my experience. Anything but "obviously false" at the very least.

[Your observation/thread is] Interesting in an armchair psychology way... but, I'll refrain from exercising my ego like that.



Happy Father's Day, all.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

---

Wow dude, what a weak arguement.
Let's put this verse into context by reading what the verses around it are saying:

9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

Oh, so he's talking about greed/self indulgence and not specifically money (duh).
So the things you listed are all the result of greed/self indelgence, not a $1 bill, but you probably knew this however you just had to do your little bible bashing for the day.
Weak, weak, weak arguement dude, you really made yourself look like a fool this time.

So basicly the statement is not false, you just don't know how to read more than one verse at a time (if you did you'd probably go into shock).

Why don't you try attacking the Quran or something? Too scared? Oh wait I forgot, Atheists only hate Christianity, not all religions, my bad.

-Jimmy

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

---

and how can a book with such an obviously false statement still be infallible?

1 Tim 6:10 in several translations

It seems that the word "all" is sometimes used as "all kinds of".

"All" doesn't always mean "everything in it's entirety".

I like this quote from Charles Spurgeon:

"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

From here

reply to post by Rren

---

holy cow, you're back!
good to see you.

but it's obviously false as it is not the root of ALL evil. it's an absolutist statement

if i said ALL ATS members love the color pink, i'd be proven to be wrong the second someone said that they do not love the color pink.

absolutist statement.

reply to post by Mark Harris

---

well, then we have conflicting viewpoints on the bible...
some say that it is literal truth and not allegorical

also, you'd be adding meaning that isn't implied. it's a very simple statement and you're basically adding a non-implied word to it.

reply to post by PreTribGuy

---

"all kinds of" isn't the proper translation. go back to the original greek and you'll see that "the root of all evil" is the proper translation

reply to post by jimmyjackblack

---

self indulgence isn't a cause of genocides
self indulgence doesn't cause people to lock away a family member for getting knocked up out of wedlock
self indulgence doesn't cause all evil
self indulgence doesn't cause all rapes in the world
self indulgence doesn't cause child abuse
self indulgence doesn't cause etc etc

Why don't you try attacking the Quran or something? Too scared? Oh wait I forgot, Atheists only hate Christianity, not all religions, my bad.

um...no

actually, it's just the lack of an audience. if the majority of people on ATS were muslims, i'd address the quran more often.

actually, this insanely idiotic point has been addressed every time someone has spewed it out on ATS

why don't i address hinduism and the vedas?
or wicca?
or other stuff?
because the majority of the religious members of ATS are christians
it's called knowing your audience

so it still stands.

try to say "wow, what a weak argument" when you can show that it's weak.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

---

also, you'd be adding meaning that isn't implied. it's a very simple statement and you're basically adding a non-implied word to it.

But it is implied. Several translations of the same verse say "all kinds of".

Example:
English Revised Version
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

American Standard Version:
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The New American Standard uses "all sorts of":
For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Young's Literal Translation:
for a root of all the evils is the love of money, which certain longing for did go astray from the faith, and themselves did pierce through with many sorrows;

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

---

Simple

If you love money then you do not love God as there is a conflict.

If you do not love God you are against him and at the mercy of Satan, this where the evils of those you mentioned fall into the mind of mankind.

all the best

From philos and arguros; fond of silver (money), i.e. Avaricious -- covetous. THOU SHALT NOT COVET!

david

Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

---

From philos and arguros; fond of silver (money), i.e. Avaricious -- covetous. THOU SHALT NOT COVET!

david

I thought arguros was gold, not too keen on my greek though, so I could be wrong.

-Jimmy

reply to post by Givenmay

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I can believe that lol.

So does that also mean time is also evil?

reply to post by Givenmay

---

I remember seeing that somewhere. Wouldn't it actually mean that Girls require time and money, so girls require evil?

I prefer the other one, though:

Knowledge is Power
Knowledge = Power

Power=Energy/Time

Time is Money
Time=Money

So:

Knowledge is Energy/Money

The less money you have, the more knowledgeable you would be. Or if we take it one step further, with Money being the root of all evil, the less evil you are, the more knowledgeable you would be.



.....man, I'm such a geek.

I tried to not be off-topic by talking about something along the lines of the main thread of discussion, but I have nothing to add, really.

holy cow, you're back!
good to see you.

Yeah, moving around a bit. Orlando ---> North Texas ---> Panama City. Didn't have the time (or internet connection) to play with you guys like I'd like to. But, unfortunately for ATS, I should be able to now. Good to see you too.

but it's obviously false as it is not the root of ALL evil. it's an absolutist statement

As I attempted to establish ("I" meaning the link I posted) 'love of money' has a deeper meaning [ego, greed, etc.] than the one you're giving it based on that one sentence, removed from its context. Which (imho) is intellectually lazy and/or dishonest. Reminds me of your thread where you argued against 'thou shall surely die' with 'but, they didn't die' (can't remember where to find that one atm) or your attempt to falsify C.S. Lewis' "Liar, Lunatic, Lord" argument with 'oh yeah, what if he was just wrong.' Which evidences that you'd never read Lewis' argument (which dealt with such.)

I don't think your giving some of these issues and arguments the respect they deserve. Seems you skip the study, understanding and consideration part and just jump into the deep end. Hard to have a serious conversation (much less debate or argue) with someone whom operates like that.



1 Timothy - Chapter 6 KJV (Read the entire chapter and (if you like) use the Strongs feature too)

if i said ALL ATS members love the color pink, i'd be proven to be wrong the second someone said that they do not love the color pink.

Sure. How about trying it this way: How would you change it to make it more accurate? [ ? is the root of all evil.]

absolutist statement.

I guess we'd have to (like has been so far in your thread) do the [Clinton voice] "depends on what your definition of is is" [/Clinton voice] thing. Also, it's worth noting that many scholars believe that the NKJV version/translation is more accurate:


"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." [ 1Ti 6:10 (NKJV) ]

As you can see, if this is indeed the better translation, we've nothing to argue about. So (imo) there are several ways in which your argument is flawed/weak. Either way, not sure how we can (assuming nothing anyone has posted thus far has changed your mind/opinion/observation... which seems to be the case) find any middle ground on this or have any reason to continue the argument. Personally, when taken in context and understanding that this is an English translation of an ancient language, I find the statement true and wise... as is. If not, the NKJV trans-lation/literation defeats your 'absolutist argument.' Either way.

Your mileage may vary. See you around.

Regards.

[edit on 18-6-2008 by Rren]

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

---

it says money is the ROUTE of all evil, which it is, most people do evil things and live an evil lifestyle without LOVE over money..

it says money is ROUTE of all evil, it doesnt say money is the ONLY evil...
so stop trying to prove the bible wrong, because you cant only when you minipulate it like youve done here.

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