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MiG 29 OVT demo vid.

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posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 02:44 AM
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www.liveleak.com...


Nice. 15 degrees off axis independant nozzle control, huge manourvering capability coupled to a new fly by wire control system.


Makes the old MiG 29 airframe leap into the future in grand fashion. Couple this with the new sukhoi airframes with said thrust vectoring and european fighter aircraft are suddenly looking a bit ropey.

Only airframe i'd want to be sat in for a fight against these monsters is a F-22.

(yes i know they are tech demos, but if a hostile country fills its airforce with these its going to become a formidable opponent).




posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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Amazing video. The only thing is the same argument made against the Su - no stealth capability. The MiG-29 is a sweet airplane, no doubt, but when are the Russians going to unveil their stealth airplane? Maybe they did - but we just didn't see it!



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by HatTrick
Amazing video. The only thing is the same argument made against the Su - no stealth capability. The MiG-29 is a sweet airplane, no doubt, but when are the Russians going to unveil their stealth airplane? Maybe they did - but we just didn't see it!

1. F-22 Ram coating is only on the edges
2. Russia prooved it can do that too with the MiG-29 KUB
3. Su-35 IS going to have RAM coating also, plus it's Radar will put 22 to rest and that before the PAK-FA www.ausairpower.net...



posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by Lambo Rider
 



wow i never knew that. Cheers for that little gem.
As for those freaky 15 degree off axis thrust vectoring nozzles...I love russian 'out of the normal' thinking and approach to technology.



posted on Jun, 18 2008 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Lambo Rider
1. F-22 Ram coating is only on the edges
2. Russia prooved it can do that too with the MiG-29 KUB
3. Su-35 IS going to have RAM coating also, plus it's Radar will put 22 to rest and that before the PAK-FA www.ausairpower.net...


Its not going to put he 22 to rest; its just going to tilt that scale back towards even-steven.

Su-35 with Irbis is still not comparable to an F-22 at BVR. Maybe F-35 though..



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by Lambo Rider
1. F-22 Ram coating is only on the edges
2. Russia prooved it can do that too with the MiG-29 KUB
3. Su-35 IS going to have RAM coating also, plus it's Radar will put 22 to rest and that before the PAK-FA www.ausairpower.net...


Its not going to put he 22 to rest; its just going to tilt that scale back towards even-steven.

Su-35 with Irbis is still not comparable to an F-22 at BVR. Maybe F-35 though..
Not according to this, and it knows what he's talking about: www.ausairpower.net...



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 05:19 AM
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Originally posted by Lambo Rider

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Its not going to put he 22 to rest; its just going to tilt that scale back towards even-steven.

Su-35 with Irbis is still not comparable to an F-22 at BVR. Maybe F-35 though..
Not according to this, and it knows what he's talking about: www.ausairpower.net...


Well, I cannot see where it says that the Irbis, puts the F-22 to rest.
Please quote and specify..
Quoting large articles does not necessarily validate your points.
Remember, I said F-35 maybe, not F-22.



posted on Jun, 21 2008 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by Lambo Rider

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Its not going to put he 22 to rest; its just going to tilt that scale back towards even-steven.

Su-35 with Irbis is still not comparable to an F-22 at BVR. Maybe F-35 though..
Not according to this, and it knows what he's talking about: www.ausairpower.net...


Well, I cannot see where it says that the Irbis, puts the F-22 to rest.
Please quote and specify..
Quoting large articles does not necessarily validate your points.
Remember, I said F-35 maybe, not F-22.
You said: "Su-35 with Irbis is still not comparable to an F-22 at BVR. Maybe F-35 though." Here's what Ibris E does: (The performance increase in the Irbis-E is commensurate with the increased transmitter rating, and NIIP claim a detection range for a closing 3 square metre coaltitude target of 190 - 215 NMI (350-400 km), and the ability to detect a closing 0.01 square metre target at ~50 NMI (90 km). In Track While Scan (TWS) mode the radar can handle 30 targets simultaneously) www.ausairpower.net...



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 03:45 AM
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Good.

Now can you tell me what the F-22 RCS is?

Then tell me what the RCS of Su-35 BM is, and also tell me at what range the F-22 APG-77 LPI radar can pick up that Su-35 RCS.
Put in the AIM-120D and the R-77AE into the fray and it stills swings in the favor of the F-22 quite considerably!



EDIT: British spelling not accepted on this site! :|



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 03:49 AM
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reply to post by Daedalus3
 


RCS of an F-22 is the same return as a mosquito to high frequency radars is what i heard !



So how the hell does a none stealth airframe have a hope in hell of getting the first look / kill capacity against this monster ? It doesn't in my opinion.



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 05:22 AM
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reply to post by Dan Tanna
 


Dan, you need to understand a couple of things about Air Power Australia. Nearly all there talk is about Australias purchase of the Super Hornet, our involvement in the F-35 programme, as well as the retirement of the F-111. What he sais does NOT constitute directly to the F-22.

The author is Dr Kopp, who proposed an upgraded F-111 powered by F-119 (F-22 engines) paired up with F-22s for air defense. It was not accepted, personally I agree with him, many F-111 airframes are under 3000 hours and in good shape, thus the decision to get the F-18F doesn't appear to make much sence...if my math is correct that 6 billion dollar deal is about $286 for every man, woman, and child, in Australia, for a 'interim' fighter that we don't even need. I don't like having $286 STOLEN from me.
But that's been discussed before and is for another thread...

But now, he only attacks the super hornet and F-35, and much of his claims can easily be countered, infact, if you look on other forms most people ignore him and ridicule members who bring him up (F-16 net and Defense talk). So it's best to take him with a (VERY large) grain of salt.



Well first, even if you put any amount of radar absorbant materials onto the Su-35, it still has a barn door radar cross section that ANY modern radar can detect from significant range - that's why the US didn't just slap RAM onto the F-16 to make the F-117.


Next, he paints the Su-35 as some mystical super cruising beast. It cannot super cruise nor has any indication of super cruising. It would be like saying the F-35 can supercruise because the engine is based apon the F-119 only with a higher bypass ratio (same BPR as the supercrusing Eurofighter I might add). I.E. REDICULOUS. There is no mystical speed advantage it has.

The Irbis is still PESA - which basically means the modules only receives messages that have been bounced off the enemy aircraft using a SINGLE power source. A single power source is a SINGLE frequency. If you're pumping out 21 kw of energy into the sky then EVERYONE will be abled to understand where you are, and the EW suites should also determine WHO you are.

They acheive 'LPI' (Low Probability of Intercept) usually by modulating the frequency up and down, but once again it's 21kw on ONE frequency.
If you want to be stealth then you have to scale down the power - then all of a sudden you loose out on that range advantage that you have, but wait? What about the massive RCS? Read this (regarding AN/APG-81):

integrator.hanscom.af.mil...



While Northrop Grumman officials will not discuss the specialized clues, specialists say they include engine vibrations, infrared signatures, the movement of manual radars inside radomes, identifiable reflections from specific radars and a large range of electronic emissions.

(Legacy radars can perform similar functions, though I doubt they take it to the extent the sensor fused F-35 would take it.)

Massive RCS? Still detected and shot down. If it's designed to detect 0.01m^2 targets at 90km while at full power then it would be detected, identified, and shot down by F-22 or F-35 which have far smaller radar cross sections. I might add, in real life kills are almost never at these long distances, so if the Su-35 can target things significantly smaller than 0.01m^2 at reasonable distances then it DOES stand a chance against F-35... but let's just say I'd MUCH be rather than the F-35.


In contrast, AESA - means that each module transmits and receives. The F-35 radar has 1200 of these, therefore it's possible, although inprobable, that each module could only put out a few watts each which is insanely hard to detect. This is known as wide spectrum LPI. In real life each module isn't on one frequency each, but you get the point.


There is just no reason to suggest a Irbis equiped Su-35 is some mystical aircraft that can identify and shoot down targets before anything else - on the contrary - it can be seen easily and identified easily infact - by any modern radar and that includes Super Hornets APG-79. This does NOT mean it's a bad plane or radar, it carrys a damn lot, can fly damn far, and has a damn powerful radar, is damn maneuverable and is by most accounts damn cheap, not to mention it is a massive force multiplyer by offering almost AWACS type control. Some people would suggest that data linked Su-35s could kill and F-22, but also the Su-35 is more than a match for any 4th generation aircraft. But like always, it will be detected and possibly downed.




Please correct any inaccuracies.


Later PAKFA should be awsome.
Irbis sized wide sprectrum AESA with awsome stealth and R-77AE, that would be very impressive.
Also, one Russian radar company is developing AESA that can be housed inside aircraft slats. I wonder, how would the RAM work covering the radar?

[edit on 23/6/2008 by C0bzz]



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 06:00 AM
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reply to post by C0bzz
 



Dude.... I was just saying about the F-22 radar cross section as told to me by an aviation worker here on the boards!

But..... man thanks for explaining the radar angle to me - thtas cleared up alot of questions I had about those low probability of intercept models.


for the info - and for the heads up so i don't walk blindly into a flamer war another time!



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by C0bzz
 


Well its not that simple. THe PESA Irbis could outperform other AESA radars purely because of the sheer power/size capability.
F-22 LPI APG-77 though is still out of its league IMHO.
I am very interested to see what the PAK-FA brings about though, with the tech base of the Irbis and the Zhuk AESA on the MiG-35.



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 01:09 AM
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Of course. There is no doubt that the Irbis is possibly more 'powerful' than other AESA. However, there is no suggestion that it can detect stealthy aircraft at effective ranges, and it is NOT stealthy either - using it alerts everyone in the area to its presence. Simply put - it is NOT some world beating radar / aircraft that can magically kill everything in the sky like some people suggest.

EDIT:

And if you want to see Dr Kopp and that rediculous Four Corners show get obliterated, then go here:

ozzyblizzard.blogspot.com...

I guess I just owned myself about the F-111 issue.
. But hey, you learn something new everyday.


[edit on 24/6/2008 by C0bzz]



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by C0bzz
Simply put - it is NOT some world beating radar / aircraft that can magically kill everything in the sky like some people suggest.

[edit on 24/6/2008 by C0bzz]


Quite true.. and neither is the F-22 and APG-77; they're just better than the rest
as of now. No magic in aviation.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by C0bzz
 


Thanks for the information, it's quite indepth.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Good.

Now can you tell me what the F-22 RCS is?

It is .01 which is Exactly what the N035 Ibris-E was designed for at 90km/54mi coincidense I don't think so.



Then tell me what the RCS of Su-35 BM is, and also tell me at what range the F-22 APG-77 LPI radar can pick up that Su-35 RCS.

I can't figure out what the 35's RCS is but I know it's much larger than .01, and the F-22 can target a 3^2 target at 240km/149mi, and the Su-35BM a 3^2 taget at 400km/250mi, and a .01^2 target at 90km/54mi (F-22 bye byski) and remember in A2A battle he who's ECM's are working best is going to shoot down the advasairy first, and judging from those ecm's it ain't going to look pretty for the 22 when it goes up against it.


Put in the AIM-120D and the R-77AE into the fray and it stills swings in the favor of the F-22 quite considerably!
You must be kidding:www.ausairpower.net...

[edit on 25-6-2008 by Lambo Rider]



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 07:51 AM
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It is .01 which is Exactly what the N035 Ibris-E was designed for at 90km/54mi coincidense I don't think so.

Incorrect.

Radar cross section for the F-35 is 'according to November 2005 reports', 0.0015m^2, and the F-22 is 0.0001 - 0.0002 m^2. You're off by a factor of 10 for the F-35, and 100 for the F-22.


www.globalsecurity.org...

Oh, and did I mention the F-22s will all be data-linked and thus will almost always be in a tactically better position? Or how when the Su-35 turns its radar on the F-22 will instantly understand what it is and who he is? Even IF the Su-35 could detect the F-22 at 90km...:


  • The missiles are unlikely to be abled to lock onto the F-22, unless you use heat seeking.
  • By the time a Su-35 detects an F-22, an AMRAAM will be heading home.
  • The F-22 would have a MASSIVE advantage in situational awareness.
  • The AMRAAMS already in the air would have a HUUUGE kinematic advantage.


The battle IS, already in DRAMATIC favour of the F-35 / F-22.


And stop with this Dr. Kopp BS.
.


Dr Kopp— "To put this into context, I am one of the few people in Australia who has performed genuine academic research on network-centric warfare and also the technology from which these networks are built, to the extent that my doctoral thesis was actually on the adaptation of fighter radars for long-range networking. I am probably the best qualified person in Australia to comment on this."

www.aph.gov.au...

Amazing since he knows so little about 'network centric warfare'.
He's turning into a bigot. Did I mention he thinks the F-35 is a 'paper plane', that is '4th generation'? And how he thinks the Su-35 and Mig-29 are 'fifth generation'?

I'll address Kopp completely in the next few weeks - the more I read the easier it becomes - he is turning into a nut.

[edit on 25/6/2008 by C0bzz]



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by C0bzz

It is .01 which is Exactly what the N035 Ibris-E was designed for at 90km/54mi coincidense I don't think so.

Incorrect.

Radar cross section for the F-35 is 'according to November 2005 reports', 0.0015m^2, and the F-22 is 0.0001 - 0.0002 m^2. You're off by a factor of 10 for the F-35, and 100 for the F-22.

The only place I found the RCS of the 22 is the 3rd link search.yahoo.com... that says "F-22 Raptor darkgovernment" in GlobalSecurity and others don't give out the specifics:



www.globalsecurity.org...

Oh, and did I mention the F-22s will all be data-linked and thus will almost always be in a tactically better position? Or how when the Su-35 turns its radar on the F-22 will instantly understand what it is and who he is? Even IF the Su-35 could detect the F-22 at 90km...:

The new ones because from what I've read in Airforce Monthly/Combat Aircraft Magazines the 22 DOESN'T have "data-link" with other 22's, but relise on "Radio-comunications" correct me if I'm wrong the baseline 27 have data-links, let alone the new Su-35BM's and it will know when the 22 is in the air.



  • The missiles are unlikely to be abled to lock onto the F-22, unless you use heat seeking.
  • The R-77T/T-PD will do that well.



  • By the time a Su-35 detects an F-22, an AMRAAM will be heading home.
  • The F-22 would have a MASSIVE advantage in situational awareness.
  • The AMRAAMS already in the air would have a HUUUGE kinematic advantage.

You do know what ECM/ECCM are don't cha, you don't really think the 35BM's going to be built with out them right? If your radar missile radar can't track/lock on to you the 22 won't be able to shoot anything, outside of using it's Guns.



The battle IS, already in DRAMATIC favour of the F-35 / F-22.


And stop with this Dr. Kopp BS.
.


Dr Kopp— "To put this into context, I am one of the few people in Australia who has performed genuine academic research on network-centric warfare and also the technology from which these networks are built, to the extent that my doctoral thesis was actually on the adaptation of fighter radars for long-range networking. I am probably the best qualified person in Australia to comment on this."

www.aph.gov.au...

Amazing since he knows so little about 'network centric warfare'.
He's turning into a bigot. Did I mention he thinks the F-35 is a 'paper plane', that is '4th generation'? And how he thinks the Su-35 and Mig-29 are 'fifth generation'?

I'll address Kopp completely in the next few weeks - the more I read the easier it becomes - he is turning into a nut.

[edit on 25/6/2008 by C0bzz]
Please do as I see it so far he's on point, so you should be able to find other sources that can easily disproove his claims, I'll be waiting.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 10:42 AM
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How does any of these have to do with the Mig 29 OVT demo?

Yeah its all good points and great info but only 3-10 posts in this thread is horribly off track and those who would want to take part in this subject don't know its hear since its labeled something completely different.

Meh I'm not a mod but this this thread seems dangerously out of touch with the OP

*Also so so much of this type of info is covered in other more related threads like those related to RAAF super hornet choice or F-22 net centric threads etc. Sure its good to see it again but are we just rehashing "old" info.

[edit on 25-6-2008 by Canada_EH]



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