Originally posted by jamie83
You know what would make it easier to save money? If I didn't have to pay 40% of my income in taxes.

Dude, where do you live? I'm in Canada, probably the heaviest taxed nation in the western world and I don't pay that much.

Originally posted by coven
If your anything like me you start to read these posts... and get all irritated that some other anti-obama idiot is on the loose...

Then I see it's another Jaime83 thread...

Soooo... I decide, since they only joined once OBAMA was a definite, they will leave when the elections over...

This is political baiting at it's worst and ATS has totally disregarded it.

This member should have been banned a LOOOONNNNGGGG time ago.

Every freakin' liberal whines about free speech until the moment somebody says something they don't like. Then they want to ban the speech they don't agree with.

What is your definition of political baiting? Criticizing Barry O.? I apologize. Let me go get my Stevie Wonder chant recording and practice some more....

"Baaa.....raa....aaack.... Oo...baaaa...maaa.... Baa...raaa... aaack... Ooo...baaa....maaaa"

Damn... it still isn't working. I still think Barry O. is an inexperienced, liberal, condescending, elitist, disingenuous politician.

Originally posted by intrepid

Dude, where do you live? I'm in Canada, probably the heaviest taxed nation in the western world and I don't pay that much.

I live in the U.S. Between federal, s.s., state, local, school, and property tax I pay just over 40% of my income in taxes. What's the tax rate in Canada?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by jamie83
You know what would make it easier to save money? If I didn't have to pay 40% of my income in taxes.

Dude, where do you live? I'm in Canada, probably the heaviest taxed nation in the western world and I don't pay that much.

You see Bud...

Our Right wing down here is no where near as compassionate as yours is...

They spend globs of money convincing a whole slew of people to vote against their own best interests... and they do this by making them think they are wealthier then they are. 99% of Repiglicans are no where near the Economic bracket that is helped most by Repiglican economic tactics.

In fact.. what these people pay in taxes is usually more then a whole state of their disillusioned supporters will make in their life times.

There are other fronts of the assault on reason and common sense too that they prey on...

Mirages like ..

Repiglicans are for the Military... because they OWN or Own shares of companies that are in the Military Industrial Complex- Not because they actually Served.. (There are labeled DEM's that are part of that group.. and yes they are supreme SCUM as well!)

And of course the ever popular .. God, Guns, Abortion, and Gays..

And while I can eviscerate and expose their hypocrisies on all of those .. I will save that and the rest for another day.

Originally posted by jamie83
Every freakin' liberal whines about free speech until the moment somebody says something they don't like.

He is not whining..

If we are to believe your posts...and all you have is the Sean Hannity in your head telling you crap..

Fine.. you can have all the free speech you want..

However if you wish for us to also assume you have a brain that functions you are going to have to stop fabricating walls of BULL#..

If you think Obama is so inexperianced.. and SOOO Liberal which BTW means Generous, Openminded, Freedom.. and is NOT a dirty word.

Then debate the issues and stop the BS cheap crap..

Your grasping is so desperate that either could be true... and if it is the latter.. then you are not exercising your "freedom of speech".... you are breaking the law and committing Defamation... (that repiglicans love to cry about when they are exposed for their filth)

You do not have a right to Libel... no more then you do to "cry fire" in a theater.



[edit on 14-6-2008 by SavageHenry]

Originally posted by SavageHenry
They spend globs of money convincing a whole slew of people to vote against their own best interests...

Great example of more Harvard Professor-ish, elitist, condescending liberal mentality. Thanks for sticking to the topic of the thread.

Thank God there are people out there like Barry O. (and you) to tell people who don't know any better what's best for them.

I guess using your ahem... logic... Barry O. wants to convince his DEMONcratic (see, I can make up clever, yet immature, labels for Dems too) followers that they need to government to "make it easier" for them to save money because God knows that couldn't do it themselves.

Its curious that you're ranting about Republicans not being smart enough to know what's in there best interest, when this thread is all about an Obama telling the American people that HE knows better what's in their best interest.

See the commonality here? It's the core belief of the liberal religion that the masses aren't smart enough to make their own decisions, and therefore the government has to FORCE them to do what's best for them.

And exactly where has this ever worked in the history of the world??

Ahhh the Liberal religion...


Oh yes...

We doth know that CLEAN AIR... WATER.. and not committing TORTURE in the name of FREEDOM is good for all...

We know it is better to fund our future then it is to sell it out to the cheapest and most connected bidder.

We know it is better to have stability by funding programs that ensure no one finds themselves on skid row.. is better then taking that money and going to vegas with it.

Obama is telling people what is in their best interest...and the people are saying YES.. that and more .... It is a collective understanding... akin to water being wet.. and bread being best fresh.

He does not imply that he created the water...or the bread... you do.

You fail to fully understand what is most important... and what is the best path to take... it is a primal law of nature.. and you are totally ignorant of it...

And hence will be swept up in the maelstrom...and eventually reborn.

You cannot see the illusion before you ... nor do you remember a single frame of what has gone by over the last 8 years...

But you will soon.. and you will blame Barack Hussien Obama... when it is not his fault.

You will FAIL at that tactic.. just as you FAIL in trying to label that 40 year old archaic repiglican line of "Tax and Spend LIBERALS!!!" (the horror!)

Yet... it is Your pathetic excuse for a selected Prezdunt... who has borrowed more money in just 6 terms as POTUS... then ALL PREVIOUS 42 Presidents before him ... COMBINED!!!

When the smoke clears in that cranium.... you will see how you have not only been lying to yourself... you have sold yourself out to the biggest whores around...

Good thing President Barrack Hussien Obama .. with the support of the Majority of Americans.. will be there to wipe your tears.. and rub your head.

I much prefer you to stick with actual Rethuglican talking points as the Rethinkicants ideology is totally bankrupt... and they put the Bill on your TAB .

Originally posted by SavageHenry

However if you wish for us to also assume you have a brain that functions you are going to have to stop fabricating walls of BULL#..

If you think Obama is so inexperianced.. and SOOO Liberal which BTW means Generous, Openminded, Freedom.. and is NOT a dirty word.

Then debate the issues and stop the BS cheap crap..

Dude, I am the person who started the thread about a specific issue, e.g., Obama wanting to mandate the employers be forced to open up retirement accounts for employees because this will make it easier for them to save money.

I haven't seen you debate this issue at all. All I see from you is a bunch of self-reverent, psuedo-intellectual, insulting nonsense.

Here's the issue:

If you own your own business, and you hire your neighbor to work for you, do you think it's up to the feds to be looking over your shoulder forcing you to open up a retirement account for your neighbor to make it "easier" for your neighbor to save money?

And if so, are you going to be happy when the feds show up at your door demanding you show them records of how you set up the retirement account for your neighbor?

I think the last thing American businesses need right now is another layer of bureaucracy and more feds looking over our shoulders telling us how to run our businesses.

Originally posted by jamie83
I think the last thing American businesses need right now is another layer of bureaucracy and more feds looking over our shoulders telling us how to run our businesses.

THAT makes perfect sense. One must also look at the existing bureaucracy because they all work for the same Bosses. Let's ask JFK how he likes those bosses. Reagan? Him too.

The question is, "What do we do"?

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin

alright man, since you dont have answers, ill leave you alone
just let the record show that you can't provide evidence to back up your claim

thats called trash talking
not debating

When you're ready to discuss issues, and voting histories, give me a u2u
because a politicans voting history is his or her nostradamus.
it tells you what they've done
what they believe
and what they will do

until you see it that way, and examine the facts, instead of the mud slinging, you'll never crawl out of that disgusting lair of ignorance.

WTF are you babbling on about now? I am discussing this issue. Perhaps instead of blathering on over and over about how I am not discussing issues you could actually DISCUSS the issue??

Now there's a novel idea.

You call Obama an elite'ist?

What makes him elite

What makes Obama elitist? His pervasive attitude that he knows what's better for individuals than they do. E.g., that people need to save more money so he's going to make their employer set up a retirement account for them to make it easier for them to save.

Or that he knows that white, middle-class workers are bitter about being middle-class so they turn to their guns, religion, and racist attitudes for comfort. Yeah, that's pretty elitist.

Or that Americans have the nerve to eat what we want, drive SUV's, and keep our thermostats set to 72 degrees and expect the rest of the world to accept this!? Yeah, that's pretty elitist as well.

and by the way - IF you're paying 40% of your income to taxes, you seriously better investigate your tax preparer. you're getting robbed.

Though i believe it to be a fallacy. I need to see your tax records, unadulterated, 27 days ago, or ill consider you as fabricating the evidence and someone somewhere will go slander you on political forums, making up truths as they go along.

WTF are you talking about now? It's really getting weirder how you seem to be obsessed with me personally. I never had anybody on ATS tell me they need to see my tax returns before. Is it ok if I redact my address so I don't have to worry about you showing up on my doorstep???

Originally posted by jamie83


Dude, I am the person who started the thread about a specific issue, e.g., Obama wanting to mandate the employers be forced to open up retirement accounts for employees because this will make it easier for them to save money.

You have started and participated in a few threads and laid a few miles of BS in them.

Now... do you have a 401k?.. a IRA?... CD?.. any sort of thing like that?

Really quickly.. do you know that many employers take out life insurance policies on their employees?... They do .. and they do not list your family as the beneficiary's.... it is their own and they keep it...

So they can afford to do that... but they cant hook you up with dental?

What about when the CEO gets caught in the mens room with the mail man...so they company has to fire him... but they still slather him with a wad of cash that could choke a pop star... or he retires... so they give him 1.1 BILLION dollars...

Call me what ever you want... NO ONE should have that much money...especially a health insurance CEO.

Regardless as this can go on and on, and the model for business is going to be changing very rapidly anyway... so you will see alot more co-op type models being implemented...

And in that environment employee savings accounts and financial security will be the tip of the iceberg. Obama is just ahead of the ball on this.

You will see.

Originally posted by jamie83
If you own your own business, and you hire your neighbor to work for you, do you think it's up to the feds to be looking over your shoulder forcing you to open up a retirement account for your neighbor to make it "easier" for your neighbor to save money?

Well... I certainly would....and DO!

I would rather have an employee that appreciates and respects me because he or she knows that I am looking out for them.

You see.. Primal Law of Nature.

You take care of your assets.

If you are an ant.. you take care of your aphid flocks...

It is the same with having employees... be a good boss.. and create a healthy environment... and you will make more money then you can imagine. Your employees will feel LOYALTY to you.. they will do a good job.. they will treat the customers right.. they will go the extra mile, clean all the crumbs, and be your number one product!

But you have to REALLY take care of them... being a greedy idiot and just giving mouth service to that nature... does not get the results.

Treat your employees like scat.. and watch your business fail to meet even your faintest daydream.

Originally posted by jamie83
And if so, are you going to be happy when the feds show up at your door demanding you show them records of how you set up the retirement account for your neighbor?

Actually I would not have that paper work.. my employee would.. I just make the payment.

Originally posted by jamie83
I think the last thing American businesses need right now is another layer of bureaucracy and more feds looking over our shoulders telling us how to run our businesses.

No..

The last thing the American businesses need right now is another "LOAN" of a tax check...that is only superficial and just enables them to hold onto the failed paradigm longer then it should of been...and it has been too many years already .. (you do know we have to pay back both of bushies tax bribe checks right?)

I also think you are confusing and confuddling what American businesses are as you are lumping them all into the same catagory.

Any way it is far more nuanced then can be discussed in a day...and I have other things to do...

Originally posted by SavageHenry
Regardless as this can go on and on, and the model for business is going to be changing very rapidly anyway... so you will see alot more co-op type models being implemented...

And in that environment employee savings accounts and financial security will be the tip of the iceberg. Obama is just ahead of the ball on this.

You will see.

What I see is businesses leaving the U.S. left and right for more business friendly jurisdictions. At some point U.S. politicians are going to wake up and see that it is impossible to tax and regulate an economy into prosperity.

Well... I certainly would....and DO!

I would rather have an employee that appreciates and respects me because he or she knows that I am looking out for them.

You see.. Primal Law of Nature.

You take care of your assets.

But you have to REALLY take care of them... being a greedy idiot and just giving mouth service to that nature... does not get the results.

Treat your employees like scat.. and watch your business fail to meet even your faintest daydream.

I agree 100% I take care of my employees very well too! But the problem comes when the government FORCES me to become more than an employer. I have one business where the employees are totally covered in every way. I just started another business where there's no way I could afford to pay for health care or anything beyond the basics. If I would be forced to provide health care for the employees in this business I would have never started the business.

Cant afford to pay for health care...because Health Insurance company's are cannibalistic scum...

Doctors in this country kill more people then guns and accidents year after year...

The view and experiance here makes me feel that it is because our system is FOR profit... When that is inherently twisted.

If someone says they want to be a doctor..because "Doctors make big $$$" ... tend to suck at the job if their desire for the $$$$ outlasts the will required to make it through medical school.

And even those who wish to heal and fix people genuinely get sucked into the system as well.. often having to hire people to deal with insurance companies.. who are the biggest parasites there are...and really the main problem in this situation.

We should do like every other Western Civilization and get it done better...

Medicine should be preventive... (as that cuts the costs..big time)

Not for Profit...

Certainly pay people what they are worth.... Certainly pay them well... Pay them for performance...

I like that my auto mechanic loves what he does.. as do his guys... I drive pain in the ass german vehicles, which are all over engineered and a pain in the ass to work on ...but since my guys love to do it.. they do it well.. and I bring them my buisness and advocate the excellence of their service to all who would listen.

As for paying taxes...

Well I for one would certainly love to be able to SAY where my tax dollars go to be spent... (that would certainly fix alot-IMHO-)

But to pay for services is to pay for services.. I live in one of the highest taxed states there is.... however we have good services.. our infrastructure is sound, our schools are at the top of the list... and we try to take care of those less well off as much as possible...

Now when it comes to taxes... I cannot complain too much... at least there is food in my families belly..

But you do say 40%

40% of what... 200 million?

or 40% of 50k...

You see... its most likely on the latter... and sure..that does suck...especially when Warren Buffet is even ashamed that he pays less percent of his income in tax then does his secretary...

When he could certainly afford to pay more... as could the rest of them..

Here is your 200 million... minus 40%... can you survive on only 120 million?

I suppose you will have to ...

Originally posted by intrepid

THAT makes perfect sense. One must also look at the existing bureaucracy because they all work for the same Bosses. Let's ask JFK how he likes those bosses. Reagan? Him too.

The question is, "What do we do"?

I think you're question is best question to ask. I'm not sure what we can do. Seriously, I think posting here on ATS might be one of the best first steps we can take. People from different backgrounds, different perspectives, and coming in with different beliefs can share information with each other.

I don't know if that's going to help, but it's better than it was 20 years ago when the ONLY way you could get information was from television and the papers, and you had zero interaction with other regular citizens.

I think if it wasn't for the internet Hillary would have been the nominee. Lies have short legs, and with the internet, it becomes VERY hard to bs people.

So all the discussing of Obama and McCain, including all the rumors, serve a valuable purpose. It helps keep the candidates honest and weeds out the bad characters. Maybe sites like ATS do more good than you realize.

Maybe we are the answer we've been waiting for.

Anyway...

Good thing Barrack is not a Harvard Professor.


Oh and another thing.. a Guy who graduates 4th from the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy he got into because his daddy was an Admiral...

Should not be President..

Neither should a guy who deployed his bombs on the USS Forrestal causing a huge ship fire...

Nor should that guy who hugged the guy who said he had a BLACK baby..(that was the day I lost all respect for Bomb McCain)

Originally posted by SavageHenry
But you do say 40%

40% of what... 200 million?

or 40% of 50k...

You see... its most likely on the latter... and sure..that does suck...

I think we agree on more than you would first think. What sucks for me is that my business expenses are going through the roof because of the cost of health insurance, I'm making less and less money because my competitors are in Texas using cheap labor and my company is a union shop, and my property taxes doubled for no good reason other than the state needed more money.

This is putting my main business on the brink of shutting down. And the city I'm in keeps piling on new taxes and regulations. Now, as part of their "green" initiative, they've added another layer of bureaucracy. We have received our recycling paperwork which requires us to document all our paper and plastic waste, how much we throw out, and who we use to handle our recycling. Failure to comply is something like a $500 a day fine.

My business simply can't afford much more outside stress from regulations and taxes. It's at the breaking point already. My guess is that this is why the northeast has become the "rust belt." I can see how and why so many businesses have shut down and moved out of state.

And God knows what the cap-and-trade CO2 deal is going to do to us. If I had to guess, I'd say we'll be forced to close our doors if our choices are cut back on our energy use or pay for credits.

I can see through the lens you have in front of you ..

It certainly does suck ...

I am against NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and NAU.... and I see those as responsible for taking the foundation of the American work force away which was the only REAL thing under that illusion we had known as the tech bubble...

We need a couple of miracles for sure...and a couple of tech breakthroughs as well.

We also need to stop BUSH before he does any more damage... Look at what IRAQ has done to us... We are facing the worst financial problem in the history of the world... can you imagine if we let them sleeze us into IRAN???....

My god the Fed presses cant print any faster!!



Which is good...because we need a massive government overhaul anyway...

And a 12 year University of Chicago Constitutional LAW professor might just be the Carpenter we need to reframe that ....as Bushie calls it "A Goddamn Piece of Paper"...

We need a Constitutional work party...

Originally posted by SavageHenry


Which is good...because we need a massive government overhaul anyway...

And a 12 year University of Chicago Constitutional LAW professor might just be the Carpenter we need to reframe that ....as Bushie calls it "A Goddamn Piece of Paper"...

We need a Constitutional work party...

I'm all for a Constitutional work party.... Maybe a U. of Chicago professor is what we need after all. Just as long as it's not a HARVARD professor...