Voting records speak for themselves, page 1

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ATS Members have flagged this thread 14 times

Topic started on 14-6-2008 @ 01:17 AM by Andrew E. Wiggin

If someone has already pointed this out, then im sorry - theres a lot here to read

I find my facts from a very reliable, non partisan source. So if you need verification of any facts outlined in this passage, then click here and you can research it yourself.

How this works: I give an issue, give a pro and con (based on my opinion) that i extract from voting records of mccain and obama, then i give why i liked or disliked each

ABORTION

Barack Obama

Pro -- Ok for state to restrict late-term partial birth abortion. (Apr 2008)
Leaving it up to the states to decide. I like this. Different states have different demographics. Different demo's have different opinions, and each should decide accordingly

Con -- Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)

Really? So the govt will contact a minor when the minor is caught with drugs. The govt will contact the parent when a minor is engaged in sexual activity. But wont contact the parent when the child sneaks away to have an abortion? Abortion should be just like getting a piercing or a tattoo. If you're under 18 - with parents consent ONLY

John McCain

Pro Restrict abortions; no partial-birth; no public funding. (Jul 1998)
Yes! make any argument you want about abortion, and ill say "thank you for your opinion, bye bye" But make me pay for someone to have an abortion, and im going to get

Con Abortion OK if raped; and no testing for rape. (Jan 2000)

What a contradiction. Let it happen if they're raped? Ok. So if a woman wants it, and you dont want her to, then all she has to do is say she's been raped, and doesnt want to do anything about it. He made a very pointless statement here, and seems to be "smoke out the ***" in my opinion

Budget/Economy

John McCain

Pro --Key is to not to bail out homeowners who speculated. (Apr 2008)
Dang right. Nobody bailed me out of my credit card debt. I made the mistake, i paid for it. Dont bail out some idiot because they couldnt plan accordingly for their 500k house. Not at my expense anyway.

Con --
Bailing out Bear Stearns necessary to protect economy. (Apr 2008)

You can't be serious. Bail out billion dollar tycoons but not poor people who cant pay for their house? Personally - i say you let the market fix it all by its self...it happens that way. Bank A goes out of business, and Bank B buys it, makes changes, makes it better, and POOF, problem solved. Another ignorant contradiction

Barack Obama

Pro --Protect consumers with Credit Card Bill of Rights. (Feb 2008)

This one may very well be the reason i vote for Barack. Credit Card companies are the most corrupt and vile corporation in our country. Its time someone did something about ALL of them.

Con --Get minorities into home ownership & global marketplace. (Jan 2001)

Nothing stops a minority from getting into global marketplaces. There are already millions of them that do it. To say its a "minority" issue is just a stupid statement. It has everything to do with economic poisition, and nothing to do with skin color.

more to come (only get 4000 characters

)

All voting histories in these series of posts come from Here

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 01:45 AM by Andrew E. Wiggin

IMMIGRATION

Barack Obama

Pro Illegal immigrants lack of ID is a public safety concern. (Oct 2007)
-- Comprehensive immigration reform without amnesty. (May 2005)

No kidding? And you shouldnt trust Jack the Ripper to baby sit your kids. They have a lack of ID because they are illegal. Do you expect them to run around holding up a big sign with a picture sayign "im here illegally!" ? What a stupid statement.

I agree with his second statement, though he only points out his own flipflopping nature by saying one thing in May of 2005, and saying another in Nov of 2007 (see below)

Con -- Dont deputize Americans to turn in illegal immigrants. (Dec 2007)
-- Support granting drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. (Nov 2007)
--Immigration system is broken for legal immigrants. (Sep 2007)
--Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security. (May 2006)

1.) This is our country. They are here ILLEGALLY! So he's saying "dont report criminals" Yeah...thats REAL nobel of ya, barack.

2.) The second one just makes me laugh. What a maroon. Giving people who have no right to be here, rights of american people.

3.) Really? Because i so happen to live in a town with a big gigantic University (The university of illinois) and the student body population is 15% foriegn asian. Thats a lot of people. There are millions of immigrants that got here legally. If they can - so can everyone else.

4.) This is hilarious!! If you let them participate in Social Security - then you know where they live and work. You should kick their butts back to whence they came, until they can do what everyone else had to do, and come here legally. Its unfair to say "you can break the law, but americans cannot" absolute ignorance in its ever-shining glory.

John McCain

Pro -- Deport 2 million illegal immigrants who committed crimes. (Jan 2008)
--Give everyone in the world an opportunity to come to America. (Oct 2004)

Speaks for its self

Con --Illegal immigrants are Gods children as well. (Nov 2007)
--Change rule barring immigrants from running for president. (May 2007)
--Make possible for immigrants to do a job Americans wont do. (Oct 2004)
--More help for legal immigrants when immigrating & once here. (Jul 1998)
--Voted YES on declaring English as the official language of the US government. (Jun 2007)
--Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security. (May 2006)
-- Just go look at the list, he is an idiot.

1.) Illegal immigration and God is church and state. I believe in God, and God believes in Law. If they wanna come here, they should abide by the law to do so.

2.) This is the stupidest thing ever said by any politician, anywhere.

3.) You name me any job, what so ever, that is available in this country, and i PROMISE you, i could find an American citizen in my own town who would do it.

4.) How about more help for people already here?

5.) We are the self-proclaimed greatest country on earth, yet only can speak one language? Bi-lingualism is a true sign of intellectual fortitutde in my opinion.

6.) You have seriously got to be kidding me? Allow people who have no right to be here...to...use our rights?

7.) Yeah, seriously, just go look for yourself, not much there but stupid contradictions. This guy is a poser.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 10:26 AM by Andrew E. Wiggin

and for me: the verdict is clear

Given the two candidates are my only real choice to vote for (you can vote write-in if you want, but it wont make a difference)

I'm going to have to go with

................*DRUM ROLL*..........................................

Barack Hussein Obama

I based my decision off of reading what he's voted for in the past. Not what the media chooses to allow me to see in the present.

I encourage everyone else to draw your own conclusions in the same way. Stop listening to what CNN and Fox News tell you. Its all garbage anyway.

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 11:44 AM by Benevolent Heretic

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin

I absolutely LOVE what you've done here! (not to mention I agree with most of your opinions on these issues.) I'll do a few myself. My information also came from HERE.

Issue: Homeland Security

Obama:

Pro:
Restore habeas corpus for detainees in the War on Terror.
Voted YES on implementing the 9/11 Commission report.
Voted NO on extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision.

Con:
Voted YES on reauthorizing the PATRIOT Act.

McCain:

Pro:
CIA should work more with scientists to understand WMDs.

Con:
Voted YES on reauthorizing the PATRIOT Act.
Voted NO on restricting business with entities linked to terrorism.
Voted NO on limiting soldiers' deployment to 12 months.
Voted NO on preserving habeas corpus for Guantanamo detainees.

Issue: War and Peace

Obama:

Pro:
Voted YES on redeploying US troops out of Iraq by March 2008.
Voted YES on investigating contract awards in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Con:
Voted NO on redeploying troops out of Iraq by July 2007

McCain:

Pro:
None

Con:
Voted YES on authorizing use of military force against Iraq.
Voted NO on investigating contract awards in Iraq & Afghanistan.
Voted NO on redeploying non-essential US troops out of Iraq in 9 months.
Congress has no authority to cut off funds for Iraqi use.

Issue: Gun Control

Obama:

Pro:
Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities.
Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing.

Con:
Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban.
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok.
Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

(If you respect the 2nd Amendment, you don't agree with a BAN on guns. Locally or otherwise. And suing the manufacturer of guns is like suing the auto-maker whose car is involved in a hit and run.)

McCain:

Pro:
Prosecute criminals, not citizens for gun ownership.
Punish criminals who abuse 2nd Amendment rights.
Voted YES on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

Con:
Opposes restrictions on assault weapons and ammunition types.
Voted NO on background checks at gun shows.
Voted YES on more penalties for gun & drug violations.
Voted YES on loosening license & background checks at gun shows.

(I was surprised that there were so many "cons" for McCain here. I expected to agree more with him on this issue. But more penalties for guns and drugs? I think the current penalties should be ENFORCED for illegal gun ownership and leave people alone if they want to do drugs. And loosening license and background checks at gun shows? Nah. Sorry.)

Issue: Civil Rights

Obama:

Pro:
Apply affirmative action to poor white college applicants.
Voted NO on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration.
Voted NO on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage.
Provide benefits to domestic partners of Federal employees.
Ok to expose 6-year-olds to gay couples; they know already.

Con:
Opposes gay marriage; supports civil union & gay equality.

McCain:

Pro:
Voted NO on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage.
Ban on same-sex marriage is unRepublican; leave it to states.

Con:
Voted YES on loosening restrictions on cell phone wiretapping.
Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage.
Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation.
Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes.

My vote goes to Obama as well.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 12:31 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Thanks, Benevolent!

I too thought it was a really good idea
but since you're my only reply in more than 12 hours, i guess we're the only ones that think so

for me, one of the biggest issues is Welfare and Poverty, because i choose to see how the candidates approach the issue, and if i feel either one is leaning towards one skin color over the other, then i totally loose respect. And, suprise suprise, they've both lost my respect here.

Welfare and Poverty

Barack Obama

PRO
--Stop Fraud Act: full disclosure in subprime lending. (Sep 2007)
--Develop a strategy to eliminate extreme global poverty. (Dec 2007)

1.) I agree 110%. Anytime someone wants to reveal the lending section of this country for the slime balls they are - i stand 100% with that person!
2.) I agree. But this isnt a Miss America pagent. Dont just say end world poverty. How do you plan on doing it?

CON *deep breath*
--Welfare receipts know how to become successful but need help. (Jul 2004)
--Black churches minister to social needs out of necessity. (Oct 2006)
--$100M increase in IL Earned Income Tax Credit. (Jun 2004)
--Exorcise the ghostly figure that haunts black dreams. (Aug 1996)
--Strongly favors Require hiring more women & minorities
--says Drug use is immoral: enforce laws against it

oh man i could go on and on in this list of cons .. my reasons:
1.) Here's how you become successful. You stop complaining about not having a job. You go get a job (does not matter where) you work that job. You get in good with that job. You become a good worker. You get a raise. Ya know....how everyone else had to do it? Nobody HELPED me get to where i am today. I earned it. Hard work. Blood. sweat. and tears. No government programs said "hey, he needs money, give him a great paying job"

2.)What does this mean?????? The fact that he segregates skin color by saying black churches totally turns me away.

3.) I live in IL. My wife and i got a 2700 dollar tax return from Federal. We paid 119 dollars to state. Obama is a liar.

4.) What ghostly figure?!?! Name one law that empowers racial discrimination in todays society against black people. Again - blaming other people for the problems of a mans skin color today is cowardly. It's like saying "its phillip morris' fault that i got lung cancer!!" WRONG. Its your fault for smoking.

5.) So first he preaches to stop discrimination, then he turns around and votes for laws that discriminate. Typical flip flopping. I like obama, but man, his political hypocrisies are astounding.

6.) Drug use is not immoral. The aquisition of drugs in today's society is what is immoral. Make drugs lega, and your problems just go away.

*end heavy breathing*

John McCain

PRO
--Require 40 hours work per week from welfare recipients. (Nov 2004)
--More housing assistance; tax breaks against homelessness. (Jul 1998)

Speaks for its self. You get what you earn. If you want free money, go earn it. Homeless people are the real poverty in this country, and they dont get welfare. Why? Because they don't have a home address. Thats just a stupid way to issue welfare.

CON
--
im going to have to educate myself further on what these block grants/ etc mean. Ill repost my "CONS" at a later date.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 12:44 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

Benevolent

i wanted to point out that your con for

"
Con:
Opposes gay marriage; supports civil union & gay equality.

"

What Obama is saying is that "Marriage" is a religious term. Since religions outlaw homosexuality - to call it Marriage is to slam a religion, which the govt cannot do.

He supports civil union and gay equality. Basically, he's talking about labels, and not rights. You keep the religious people happy because its not considered "marriage" and you give gay people the right to be recognized as a union of same sex, which carries with it the right of tax breaks, etc, that "married" couples already have.

I agree with obama's decision on this, because to call it marriage is to disallow religions their right to a holy union of marriage.

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 12:57 PM by NGC2736

An interesting presentation. This presents specifics in a way that allows the public to see where each candidate stands as regards their past voting habits.

I will star and flag this, in hopes that it expands as time passes.

A dearth of posts comes from the fact that many here, just as in the real world, base their votes on an emotional foundation, and when faced with cold hard facts, tend to ignore them. They like to pick and choose so they can highlight "their" candidates values and cast clouds on those they oppose. It's a much tougher thing to face up to the record of each.

Good job.

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 01:04 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

reply to post by NGC2736

Thanks, NGC2736 :gomod:

Care to evaluate the voting records and give your own opinion?

The more the merrier.

I actually learn a lot of stuff from that site about each candidate that the media would never let you see. the media is only interested in, say, Obama's church or McCains age.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 01:13 PM by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
What Obama is saying is that "Marriage" is a religious term.

I disagree with him. I am married (heterosexual) and I'm an atheist. The "church" may or may not recognize my marriage. It doesn't matter. The state issued me a marriage license and a Certificate of Marriage.

I don't have any problem with religion procuring the word "marriage", but non-religious unions, then, should all be the same and called the same. If marriage - religion, then non-religious unions should ALL be called something else. JMO.

I agree with obama's decision on this, because to call it marriage is to disallow religions their right to a holy union of marriage.

They can have any kind of marriage they want. A word does not "disallow" them anything. They can still get married in their church, in the eyes of God and have a "Holy Marriage". If my heathen marriage doesn't stop them, how can gay marriage? I'm not asking religion to allow gays to be married in their churches. I didn't get married in a church. I'm asking that gay people have the same as I have.

This sounds like separate but equal and I don't support that.

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 01:23 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

You, being an atheist, dont go against the principals of what religion calls marriage.

In my opinion .. Gay people are not interested in changing the religious definition of marriage. There are many ministries that already provide a religious marriage ceremony for gay people.

Gay people are committed to expanding the protection of the civil definition of union to include same-sex couples so that gay couples can enjoy the same benefits, rights, and privileges that flow from marriage.

What i was trying to get at is that Obama recongizes this. He knows if the termonology is "marriage" then religious people wont like it.

Its all about words. I know words can sometimes be crap, but to quote my favorite philosopher of all time:

we do think in language and so the quality of our thoughts and ideas could only be as good as the quality of our language

If marriage is a religious ideal - then who is the government to say what they can and cannot do with it?

The civil liberties recognize homosexual union, and say they shoudl share the same rights as a married couple. and i totally agree

i just also totally agree with Obama. If we're going to get this accomplished, you're going to need the religious people on board too (because, i could be wrong, but there's a LOT of religious people in this country)

So to appease them - you dont "call" it marriage

you call it Civil Union

its the same thing

A rose by any other name is still a Rose, and smells just as sweet...or something like that

But as a side note: On this very topic, one thing i find most interesting is that most Christians still dispel the possibility of gay marriage because theres a passage that says men should not lay with other men, etc

But they "forget" that one last promises of Jesus Christ to John was "what you hold true on earth, ill hold true on heaven"

So as our society evolves, so does our understanding of Gods word. Resentment turns into compassion, gay union becomes gay marriage, because? Gay or straight, still Gods children.

Im a christian, and i support this claim.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 07:07 PM by d11_m_na_c05

Interesting... But one has to wonder if they voted on these things cause they support them or there voting base does..

I tend to use quotes and things they have actually said to base my judgments ..

As in the case of politics . Action can mean less about the politicians than the voter..

BTW: I also don't believe in marriage.. I cant believe so many woman/men just beg to be owned..

[edit on 14-6-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 07:19 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

reply to post by d11_m_na_c05

For a politician

your vote IS your quote

your job is to vote on things for the people you represent

if your vote goes against the majority of the people you represent, then your VOICE is one of ill intentions

They arent allowed to "vote" one way and later dispel it

if you vote for ________________
then you support ______________

thats the end of it

if you dont support it
dont vote for it

if you vote for it and dont support it and your people dont support it
you dont belong in politics

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 08:18 PM by d11_m_na_c05

blah............ 50 points cause theres no delete button.....:L

[edit on 14-6-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 08:37 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

i think ya lost me.....

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 09:16 PM by Hal9000

I also think what you have started here is an excellent idea.

I especially like the pretty colored text.

Seriously, that is a fabulous site. I will have to spend some time there.

I do have an issue that I also ran into on my thread where so many people, like Mr. Wiggin here are so against welfare recipients. Where does this come from? The only people still on welfare are those that qualify. All the deadbeats were showed the door back in the 90's when welfare was reformed. Like those that I had to educate in my thread, are you aware of this?

I'm only bringing this up, because it appears to be one of the reasons why so many are against health care reform. I can't believe that so many people are not aware of this.

No offense intended.

[edit on 6/14/2008 by Hal9000]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 09:19 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

My own sister in law is on welfare

she pays me 200 dollars a month to live in my house with me and my wife (her sister). I posted a bit on this in the rant forum

She is a drain on the economy
on her daughter
and mostly on me

There are millions of people like my sister-in-law
and though you would not know them by name, i could name quite a few for you that i know from past experiences at jobs, etc.

Welfare is still very well exploited..
Welfare should only be fro the sick and the elderly

in my opinion
thats why im so against it.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 14-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 09:26 PM by Hal9000

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin

If you only charge $200 for rent, I'll come and live with you to. j/k

So is she capable of working and doesn't? Recipients can only be on welfare for two years now, then have to go back to work. How is she getting around that?

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 09:30 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

i don't get into her personal affairs

but welfare should also require "working 40 hours per week" unless your'e sick and/or elderly

again - just my opinion.
Welfare is one of MANY issues in this election, and obviously no candidate will be able to satisfy every request i have.

I'll deal with welfare as it is, i just think it can be 100 times better.

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 09:43 PM by drwizardphd

This is such a great thread. Star and Flag.

Not only have you gone out and done your research, but you've made educated opinions based on your research. Hell, I learned a thing or two about both John McCain and Barack Obama from reading this post.

If only we could get the majority of Americans to take a good look at who they're gonna vote for based on their previous voting records.

Overall a very intelligent and unbiased thread.

reply posted on 14-6-2008 @ 09:47 PM by Hal9000

Maybe that is more information than you would like to share. Sorry if I imposed. I have a similar relative that is not on welfare, but cannot take any other responsibility on their own. They are basically a homeless person with a home. I don't think that others that need assistance should loose it due to these poor souls.

Well that is a discussion for another day. Carry on.

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