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we have been bamboozled!!!

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posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 11:03 AM
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Bamboozled was refreshing, but Spike Lee isn't as influential ah he might be... or SHOULD be, at least among African Americans.

Shame is what happened to Dave Chapelle. There's some ambiguity about his falling out with corprate media. And it reminds me of bamboozled.




posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by djerwulfe
 


EXACTLY!!! if you dont jump through they're hoops then you will be demonised. thats why all these celebs have allowed they're image to be manipulated, as long as they get fame and fortune. the rest of us have got to bare the consequences.



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by v4vendetta
the main point of this thread was basically asking;
How will a Black President survive in this 'conditioned' environment?
and by 'conditioned', i mean years and years of negative stereotypes in the media portraying minorities as inferior.
Watch 'Bamboozled' by Spike Lee to get a rough idea;
www.youtube.com...

it makes me sick, and to think that it wasn't that long ago.

If Obama dont make it, how long will it take?



Alright, this is about all I can take. "If Obama don't make it, how long will it take?" So you mean to say that because negative stereotypes have existed about minorities, and the absolute opposite must be true, that B-HO is the best candidate for President of the US? Please, please tell me you don't live in America. From your typing you appear to be British and I hope that I'm right.

There are so many things wrong with your argument. First, beause of negative stereotypes less IS expected of minorities. This being the case, people who are so desperate to appear anti-racist flock to Barack Obama because he is a black man who appears every bet as good as the average white politician.

Chris Rock said it best when he talked about people's opinion of Colin Powell a few years ago...they say "He speaks so well!!" Well of effing course he speaks well, he's very well educated. It's the same with B-HO. He went to Harvard for god's sake. He's not going to talk like a gangsta. And because he speaks well and carries himself well, he must be as qualified as anyone else, right? WRONG. People act as if he's going to restore the Golden Age because he's a black man who speaks proper English.

Second, by you asking "How will a black president survive in this "conditioned" environment?", you are automatically portraying this hypothetical black president....A person who holds the most powerful office in history...as a victim. Oh how on earth will the poor thing ever SURVIVE??? Well, if he or she was competent, qualified, and intelligent enough to become the President of the United States of America, THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE WORLD...I think they can handle the pressure.

Personally, I liked Bamboozled. I don't buy into Spike Lee's usual portrayal of blacks as victims. However, I did like the fact that he acknowledged that stereotypes exist for a reason. Lower class blacks DO act like gangstas for the most part and I appreciate him calling that fact out. The very issue is as verboten in the white community as it is in the black community and someone had to say it. By donning the blackface and exaggerating these stereotypes Spike Lee was calling on black people to STOP ACTING THE PART OF THE STEREOTYPES CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS WORKED SO HARD TO END.

And for the record, I am a woman and a minority, so reduce your replies to "you just don't know how it feels!".



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 11:16 PM
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reply to post by sc2099
 


Very sorry if i offend. truly. I agree with what your saying but you and i know that even the president is "placed" there. He can win votes left right and center but at the end its up to "them".
My question was how will he survive?
how will he survive the negative attitude your country has towards minorities?
have you seen that "baby mama" incident? and thats a major network doing that, and he aint even president yet.
Personally im in support, its a good change.
I just dont know why white people are so scared or threatened, nothing bad will ever happen to them. I think the reason they are scared is because of all the "conditioning".



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by sc2099
 

Thank you. I wanted to say that, but I couldn't because . . . something was stopping me. BUt you expressed my specific frustration with the tone of the thread here much better than I could have.

You might even be more unsympathetic. There's some victimization, though, yes? I know it gets old, but, you know...when is it self-perpetuating and what is the gross effect of strategic reinforcement?



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 11:12 AM
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I just want to clarify that I DIDNT INTEND TO CAUSE ANY OFFENCE. i apologize.
All im asking is wether Obama's chances will get sabotaged by this "conditioning". Maybe im not phrasing the question correctly.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by v4vendetta
reply to post by sc2099
 


Very sorry if i offend. truly. I agree with what your saying but you and i know that even the president is "placed" there. He can win votes left right and center but at the end its up to "them".
My question was how will he survive?
how will he survive the negative attitude your country has towards minorities?
have you seen that "baby mama" incident? and thats a major network doing that, and he aint even president yet.
Personally im in support, its a good change.
I just dont know why white people are so scared or threatened, nothing bad will ever happen to them. I think the reason they are scared is because of all the "conditioning".


Don't worry, I'm not offended.

My answer remains the same. The president 'survives', if you can even call it that, just by hopefully doing what he thinks is right. The public turns on the president every time there is an election. Every single time, R or D, left or right. It would be no different with a black or Latino president.

The problem with your observation is that you are assuming that the entire white American population has a problem with minorities. It's simply not true. Americans have a problem with other Americans who act like jackasses, no matter what color they are. The problem is that in today's society you can only call someone out for being a jackass if they are white. If a Latino or black person is behaving in a way that reflects poorly on himself and society, no one can say anything for fear of being labelled a racist.

White people are not afraid of minorities; they are afraid of being threatened by them through their power to label someone a racist. If you're labelled a racistt, it's over for you. Your career, your credibility...it's all in the crapper. And it is very scary that someone who you don't even know has a ridiculous power over you that you never consented to give him.

The only conditioning that exists in 2008 is the conditioning that white people better play by the rules, better play nice, better bend over backwards when it comes to minorities...or else.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by djerwulfe
reply to post by sc2099
 

Thank you. I wanted to say that, but I couldn't because . . . something was stopping me. BUt you expressed my specific frustration with the tone of the thread here much better than I could have.

You might even be more unsympathetic. There's some victimization, though, yes? I know it gets old, but, you know...when is it self-perpetuating and what is the gross effect of strategic reinforcement?



You're right, I am completely unsympathetic. Though there are victims of discrimination still in 2008, anyone can still succeed in society if they simply work hard and work smart. I think that people are too quick to let themselves become victims, which only serves to hurt themselves. There is so much that can be said about this perpetual victimhood that you mentioned, though I don't want to derail the thread. All that I will say is that no one has to be a victim of anything for longer than they choose.

If someone is a victim of a crime they can choose to move on or they can choose to live in fear, victimized by every sound of footsteps and every dark shadow for the rest of their lives. If someone is a victim of sexism they can choose to write off the offending party and move on or they can choose to hate the entirety of the opposite sex for the rest of their lives and miss out on all the great people that belong to that group. Every group on earth has been discriminated against (much more brutally than happens today, I might add) at some point in time. So let's just all collectively MOVE THE HELL ON.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by sc2099
 


Basically, your government is NOT run by the people. It is a fact that your country's race relations need some serious help. The people might not be racist but the government surely IS.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by v4vendetta
reply to post by sc2099
 


Basically, your government is NOT run by the people. It is a fact that your country's race relations need some serious help. The people might not be racist but the government surely IS.


How do you figure? The Secretary of State is Black. The former Atty General was Latino. The former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former Secretary of State (Colin Powell) was black. How exactly is the government racist? And don't point to a disparity of minority Congressmen and Senators because they are elected, not appointed. I'm also not exactly sure who you think the government as an entity has "race relations" with.

Exactly how representative of the people the US government may or may not be is irrelevant.



posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by sc2099
 





Exactly how representative of the people the US government may or may not be is irrelevant.



Are you for real??? its irrelevant??? really? you sure?



posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by v4vendetta
reply to post by sc2099
 





Exactly how representative of the people the US government may or may not be is irrelevant.



Are you for real??? its irrelevant??? really? you sure?


Irrelevant to the rest of your previous comment, yes, quite.



posted on Jun, 18 2008 @ 05:48 AM
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reply to post by sc2099
 


Im not here to argue bro. but are you a minority?
If you aint, then you probably worship your country, and probably believe that, just by "showing" that there is multi racial staff at the white house, your country is politically correct. You probably a believer of the "white man gives back" philosophy and the "white man cares" idea...

i want to make it clear, i am not a racist!! I understand that there are maybe more unracist "whites" than racist ones and i hope i dont offend you. but how else will the word get through to them?

You may not be racist but your being duped...



posted on Jun, 18 2008 @ 12:14 PM
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Uh, I'd like to dispel this myth:


originally posted by sc2099
Though there are victims of discrimination still in 2008, anyone can still succeed in society if they simply work hard and work smart.

You seem to believe that since the government has legally made it unacceptable to hate people and be discriminate that the people of America immediately fall in line and agree. Unfortunately the thing that's so wrong with America is that despite what our laws say, we go extra lengths to make sure that you can not obey them if you want so long as you're quiet about it.

There is a lot of racism in America. Just because it's not as bad as it was in the 1800's, or early 1900's, or 1960's, or even the 1990's, doesn't mean it's gone. In fact I would argue that it's gotten worse because racism of older ages was raw and blatant, ignorant, loud, boisterous, and stupid. Someone would rant and rave and be violent and society would often accept it but people, abolitionists, social rights advocates, whatever you want to call them through history, could clearly see "this man is a racist, and part of the problem."

Today it's much different. Chris Rock made a point once about Colin Powell, that white people said "oh, he speaks so well!" That's the most racist comment I've ever heard. "He speaks so well." Compared to...most other Americans of African descent who speak horribly?

Which is a really, really good example of what I'm talking about: ebonics. People react to ebonics like it's backwards latin. I worked with a guy who would fly into the most ridiculous rage when he heard ebonics. I had a friend who worked next door, 100% Lumbee, and he affected the ebonic dialect because, as you well know, in the racist country of America white people built isolated neighborhoods to keep ethnic minorities away. You can look at any major population center and you can follow the path of white folks. Metropolitan areas to smaller towns 10-15 minutes outside of the major city. McMansions, Publix, a Target, the consolidated movie theatre with stadium seating, a brand new mall, etc.

When this kid would talk, the guy I worked with was absolutely livid. He just couldn't handle that this guy was using words in a way he didn't agree with. He would talk nice and casually to my pal, to the degree that my friend would mention him when my co-worker wasn't around, say he's a nice guy, a cool dude. "He got some good energy."

As soon as the door was shut and we were back inside, this guy would start off about how my friend spoke. He called him an idiot, ignorant, stupid, retarded, uneducated, worthless, and each of these adjectives had a much more offensive word following it. Then he'd go in, tell everyone else I worked with, and they'd all have a good laugh about the brown kid next door.

Rap music faces the same closed minded critique. "UH UH IM IN THE CLUB UH UH I WANT A GUN UH UH HOES" is the oft-heard clueless interpretation of rap music. How racist is that? To boil down an entire genre of music that's clearly defined a culture in America to the most visible points that a majority of the industry they mock also identify as a problem. It's like me saying all rock and roll music is essentially "YEAH YEAH YEAH BABY I NEED SEX YEAH YEAH BABY YEAH YEAH BUT I CAN'T EVER LOVE YOU."

I used the one guy I worked with as an example, but this has happened everywhere I've worked. When employees who weren't white were in the businesses, it was quiet, and it was calm, and it was professional, but it was on tense. As soon as they were gone, though, jokes came out, people loosened up, laughed, enjoyed themselves. And if a guy came in to apply who was black, managers would find EVERY reason they could not to hire him. I got physically ill having to listen to my superiors make fun of the fact that they had half a year of community college. Shouldn't that be a point we praise?

(CONTINUED)



posted on Jun, 18 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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Ethnic employees in predominantly white places of business are on the fringe, and vice versa. I've seen turnaround of ONLY ethnic employees, mostly because the managers refused to work them, refused to listen to them, and refused to respect them. They say please and thank you to white employees, and tell the rest of them what to do. I cannot stress how much the talking amongst themselves is a blow to the esteem. Try and recall a time in your life when you came around a corner and two people having a good time suddenly stop and get quiet, waiting for you to pass. It sucks, doesn't it? It really sucks. And it happens every day where these Americans work.

Please, don't think I'm talking specifically about you. You're here, so obviously, you're an enlightened individual with little in the way of primitive prejudice. But there are a few more things that need addressing so you can maybe start to realize that it's just not as fair as you think.

A majority of US states now have an "at will" employment policy, which I'm sure you know means the employer can fire you whenever for whatever reason, and you have the same right to leave for the same reason. There are safeguarding laws, of course, set up to prevent this from being misused, but unless you can effectively prove that a boss was racist. Used racist terminology, or said to an employee "he's fired cause he's black." For an employer however to say "they don't have the money" for another employee, or "longer employees need the hours," that's perfectly legal and it's kept just about everywhere I've worked through the southern United States ethnic-free.

Backbiting immediately goes to race. A customer comes in who didn't treat you right? Well if they're black, it's because they "feel like they're entitled to something." If they're hispanic, it's because "they just don't belong here." If they're asian, it's because "they have a small dick." If I hear that one again, I swear, I'm going to actually assault the idiot who said it to me. If they're Native Americans it's "I'll bet he was drunk," etc, etc.

Worse, this is the status quo. I've had so many jobs because I've been "let go" or left when a workplace was too intolerant. When I asked my co-workers to stop dropping the n-bomb, I turned into a killjoy and "hard to get along with." If I argued against any racist point they were making, I was "taking it too seriously." "You're not black," is the common response. "Why do you care?"

Not every American is racist - this is a blissful truth. Not even the majority of Americans are racist, I would wager, but our system is extremely so. Vague terminology allows people with any opinion they have to exploit it in the workplace. Which, if you'll recall, is the exact reason this country was founded: so people could do what they wanted with who they wanted and didn't have to include anyone else if they didn't want. And this has created the idea that since WE have it good, since WHITE folks generally don't have the same racial barriers everyone else does here, things are hunkey-dorey and since I'm white too I ought to button up!

That sounds exactly like how they might have silenced any questions progressive children had in the Antebellum.

Spike Lee, what he was pointing out, to tie into this original post, was that JOKES and ENTERTAINMENT is how it's done. Since they're just "joking around at work," they don't really see it as racism because they've seen other people joke about it too. But, as Dave Chapelle will attest, the joke is some extremely thin ice that doesn't hold up too well when people start to realize that it's about to crack.

This was really long. If you read it, I love you.



posted on Jun, 18 2008 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by v4vendetta
reply to post by sc2099
 


Im not here to argue bro. but are you a minority?
If you aint, then you probably worship your country, and probably believe that, just by "showing" that there is multi racial staff at the white house, your country is politically correct. You probably a believer of the "white man gives back" philosophy and the "white man cares" idea...

i want to make it clear, i am not a racist!! I understand that there are maybe more unracist "whites" than racist ones and i hope i dont offend you. but how else will the word get through to them?

You may not be racist but your being duped...


a) I'm not a bro. I am female, which I stated in my first post in this thread.
b) I also stated in a my first post on this threat that yes, I am indeed a minority.
c) In my first post on this thread I also kindly asked if retorts to my response would not degenerate into stating of implying that I could never understand the situation because I'm not a minority.

Quoted for your convenience:



And for the record, I am a woman and a minority, so please don't reduce your replies to "you just don't know how it feels!".


I'm not sure what this "white man gives" back philosophy is that you named. If you're referring to the "White Man's Burden" then I think you should realize that went out of fashion with colonialism. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're referring to, please specifically clarify.

I never stated, implied, or thought that the US government is politically correct because a) I believe that concept is meaningless BS used to intimidate people into behaving a certain way and b) political correctness has thus far not been brought up in the discussion; what was being discussed is whether or not the US government itself is racist, which I think I have shown not to be the case. Not being PC does not equate being racist.




You may not be racist but your being duped...


Oh yeah? Well how's this for unsubstantiated claims? I think you're the one being duped because you have no idea what you're even trying to say, you aren't saying whatever that is clearly, and you can't even remember what was already said. You have latched onto Barack Obama (whose name you haven't even mentioned for several posts now, as you're clearly trying to deflect from the topic at hand) for whatever reason and you aren't defending your position very well. I guess you fell for all those "Hope" and "Change" speeches.



posted on Jun, 18 2008 @ 11:59 PM
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reply to post by joecamel
 





This was really long. If you read it, I love you.

Yes, it was really long.
You took the time to write a response and it had a lot of content so I will do my best to respond!




Chris Rock made a point once about Colin Powell, that white people said "oh, he speaks so well!" That's the most racist comment I've ever heard. "He speaks so well." Compared to...most other Americans of African descent who speak horribly?

Yes, compared to the black people who do speak horribly, he does speak well. That's the point Chris Rock was trying to make...that black people need to stop talking like gangstas in order to be respected. And that's not racism, technically it's across the board elitism. No one respects a white person who talks like he just rolled up out of the trailer park; same prejudice, different ghetto.

I think it's sort of the same situation with your friend. If someone speaks as if they are uneducated people will assume they ARE uneducated. If your friend spoke like an illiterate white trash bumpkin rather than with the ebonics you had mentioned, don't you think the reaction would have been the same? It has been in my experience, which is the only experience I have to go on.




When employees who weren't white were in the businesses, it was quiet, and it was calm, and it was professional, but it was on tense. As soon as they were gone, though, jokes came out, people loosened up, laughed, enjoyed themselves.

I think this has to do with the guillotine that minorities hold over the heads of white people that is the label "Racist". I mentioned this earlier in another post and basically what I said was that white people aren't uncomfortable simply because someone is a different color than them; they are uncomfortable because they're afraid of having that label slung onto them which could end their professional and social life. It is a power they never consented to give away but which white people find themselves beholden to nonetheless.

You might argue that people who are not racist have nothing to worry about, but to that I would say that people who are not racist are the most afraid out of anyone because they force themselves to walk on eggshells just in case anything they say might be taken the wrong way and offend someone which would have a backlash with far reaching consequences.




I got physically ill having to listen to my superiors make fun of the fact that they had half a year of community college. Shouldn't that be a point we praise?

I said in an earlier post that I believe less is expected of minorities. Because of that, let me ask you, would you praise a white person for having finished a year and a half of community college? Pat them on the head and congratulate them? Or would you assume that they could have done better, gone to a 4 year school, etc? If you would have expected more of this white person, then you have only confirmed my suspicion that less is expected of minorities and that a minority only has to go a quarter as far as a white person to get 4x the praise.

As far as the at-will employment goes, I support that policy. I think an employer should be able to run his or her business in the way he sees fit and that's that.

And now for my little rant: I have to tell you, I'm from the South, born and raised. I've seen some bad behavior and some good behavior. I've experienced racism, sexism, prejudice, etc. personally. But what I can say is that I think things are getting better rather than worse. By holding onto these things and pointing to them and saying "LOOK! It's still happening!! SEE! SEE??", people are only prolonging the growing process of moving past racism. Yes, it hurts. Yes, it's insulting, humiliating, degrading, upsetting when you know you could have done that job better than anyone else who applied and you know you didn't get it because you're not a white man. But it does no good to dwell on it. There are other jobs so go out and get one, because you obviously wouldn't have been happy there.




You're here, so obviously, you're an enlightened individual with little in the way of primitive prejudice. But there are a few more things that need addressing so you can maybe start to realize that it's just not as fair as you think.


As I have stated before, I am a woman, and a minority (and an American). Demographically I belong to the lowest paid, most poorly represented population in the US. So I think I have an idea of how fair this system is or is not. As for my prejudice, I would hardly call it primitive, as I have been refining it over time with every life experience.



[edit on 6/19/2008 by sc2099]



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 12:58 AM
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reply to post by sc2099
 


my sincere apologies, again. I got sidetracked and i replied with gusto, sorry.
You sound like your on the same side as me and i know its not good to always shout "racism, racism", but you sound like racism doesnt exist for you.
Forgive me for assuming.
Have you ever been racially abused or attacked? i have, both and not long ago either. Im not saying its an excuse but it affects me, something nasty.

Now, i meant exactly what i wrote "white man gives back".
What i mean is the image in the media of "white" compassion and charity, for example;

Recently did you happen to watch "American Idol gives a buck"? It was a charity spin of the usual mind numbing crap. It was hours of Celebrities (mostly white) in third world countries holding starving kids, crying and SELF PROMOTING mainly.
It is always the same, nothing ever changes but they give the impression that "they" are the ones doing something about it (even though its their fault but thats another discussion).

i mean "gives a buck"???!! is that all? anyway, thats what i meant.

And back to Obama, POSSIBLY the first black president.
His chances are being sabotaged before he even gets there because of his skin colour.
You say your a minority but you seem stone cold when it comes to admitting that WE have to try that little bit extra.
Im prepared to try harder but all im saying is that we shouldnt have to.
Is that not clear enough?

Once again, sorry 4 calling you "bro".



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by joecamel
 


Nice one!!
bruv, you should work for the papers!!!



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 05:06 AM
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In the US there is a climate of victimization and blame. If you aren't responsible for yourself then you also have no power.
Instituional racism is a two-way street.
It's like addiction.

****I think it's also to point out that very often in North America class struggle gets lumped in with racial conflict. This is unfortunate and an effective issue smokesecreen.
CLASS not RACE. That's what I think many people are frustrated with.
Culture not Skin.



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