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EU, Ireland and the Lisbon Treaty

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posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 07:26 PM
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It's easy to see why Ireland voted 'no'.......and it isn't the kind of reasoning to make a British 'Euro-sceptic' glad.


ALMOST three-quarters of people who voted 'No' in the Lisbon Treaty referendum mistakenly believed the pact could be easily renegotiated......

.......This belief is being attributed to the Nice I and II scenarios, where the treaty was re-run in a referendum after assurances were given on Ireland's neutrality.


Read the Irish Independents article 'why we voted no' here

It'll go that way too, there will be amendments and Ireland will seek & gain some of the protective measures the UK got for herself and in a 2nd referendum Ireland will vote yes, just like before.

As for concerns about the legalise used in the wording of such treaties the matter is quite simple.
Whilst there is every reason in the world to go for 'plain English' that can only go so far.
'Legal-ese' is all about precision.
Nailing down meanings so that no-one ends up signing up to things they did not realise they were committing to.
The British have always been past masters at that but imagine how it works in a community now of 27 nations with umteen languages and Civil Services and Judiciaries.

Expecting the sort of casual chat one finds in the street in this kind of document is absurd.




posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by budski
I've started this so as not to derail the threads about Ireland voting no in yesterdays referendum.

Whilst I am pleased that this has perhaps given the arrogant european governments who wouldn't allow a treaty referendum a kick in the pants, it must also be said that the NO vote in Ireland was the result of scare tactics, by fringe groups.

In particular, I'm concerned about the churches role in the vote, and the scare tactics about abortion, prostitution etc

One of the reasons why there is so much concern about the treaty is that the language seems deliberately vague and beurocratic, and seems intentionally designed to hide the meaning of the text.
Treaty Text

I'm not completely dumb, but I find the intent of the language quite hard to follow.

If there is nothing to hide, why is it couched in these terms?

OK, that's my first point.

My second point is to do with the EU as a whole and where they go from here?

Are we to see an attempt to circumvent the Irish vote, as has already been hinted at in a news conference by the Commision President?

Just so we're cler here, the Dutch and French killed the EU constitution, the Lisbon Treaty was very much plan B, with no further referendums allowed in the other 26 member states apart from Ireland - this is despite the FACT that Brown promised a referendum and then denied one to UK voters by coming up with the ridiculous argument that the 2 treaties were completely different.

The EU commission now want to meet with Irish representatives next week to "see what can be done" which I take to mean "is there any way we can ignore this, and carry on with the treaty"

One of the methods which has been rumoured is expulsion from the EU for the Irish - which is pretty much unthinkable.

So, where does the EU go from here?

Is there to be another treaty?

Will the Irish vote be ignored?

The commission president has repeatedly stated that 18 countries have ratified the treaty, and the remaining 8 will ratify the treaty - leaving one "rogue" member.

This also brings up other questions, such as the french reaction to this.

When the French people are displeased with their government, they are not known for their delicate sensibilities in making their feelings known.
Could this mean civil unrest? Not just in France but perhaps other countries as well.


It seems as though the NO vote has raised many questions.

What will happen remains to be seen.

The chinese proverb (actually an insult) "May you live in interesting times" springs to mind - it seems we are destined to do just that.

All thoughts, as usual are welcome.


[edit on 13/6/2008 by budski]


[edit on 19-6-2008 by truthtalker]



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 09:25 AM
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Justin and I have completed an interview with Roger Knapman South West MEP for UKIP and we asked him about the Lisbon treaty and the no vote in Ireland.

This show will be going up later this month



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