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The BIG problem with Conspiracies and UFOs!

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posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 02:55 AM
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I, like most members of ATS am fascinated by the truth. Not only as means of protection from those who in secret might want to harm me or my family, but also out of what I feel is my personal responsibility to myself to grow through knowledge and self-awareness.
In general, I neither see a conspiracy around every corner nor am I blind to some of the horrible things that we are subjected to without our knowledge. I look things up for myself and try to use common sense. Most
importantly, I have learned to lower my expectations of my fellow man so as to not be in a perpetual state of anger and depression.
From what I have observed by reading through the ATS forums, there are two basic kinds of conspiracies:
1. Conspiracies to keep something hidden from the public something that is happening but was not started by humans. Such as UFO's, aliens, spirituality, the paranormal etc...
2. Conspiracies that are man made. Such as 9/11, Monsanto, fluoride in water, secret weapons, NWO, Illuminati, AI, Masonry, etc...
The question that I would like to ask my fellow ATS members is this:
Considering that there are hundreds of possible conspiracies discussed on this forum, can there possibly be tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who are working on a daily basis to initiate and maintain these conspiracies and still manage to keep them secret. Keep in mind your own place of business, the amount of people and time it takes to get even simple things done. Now take that and multiply it by ten because that is the pace of anything having to do in the government. I live in DC, trust me these people are neither the smartest nor the most motivated people you've ever met.
Think how difficult it is in todays world of camera phones and bloggers for even me and you to keep even the simplest of secrets when anyone armed with our SS number can easily background check us.
Ask yourself this, in a world where people sell each other out instantly if there is money to be made by divulging some big secret, how come that doesn't happen with the conspiracists we discuss.
I guess I'm just looking for your feedback on this because my observation is that most people I've observed, though they might have great plans, are not what you might call doers. And if you think it through, the logistics involved to do most of the things discussed on ATS are monumental.
In the end, maybe that explains why most conspiracies don't actually pan out. Not because we uncover them through our diligent research, but because it takes twenty forms and a six month wait to requisition a black suit from the GSA.

[edit on 13-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]

[edit on 13-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]




posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 03:58 AM
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reply to post by schrodingers dog
 


It's important to me because for me it is also a presonal journey. I want to discover the truth mainly because I want the satisfaction of knowing.

I struggle with the very same question, OP. Time and time again I come to this brick wall which for me is pretty substanial. I think, though I'm not convinced, that compartmalization might be an answer.


I don't kniw if there is an answer except maybe the Truth IS out there, but perhaps we have to accept the fact that 99.99% of us will never know. To me that's not acceptable so I continue on my quest sometimes feeling a bit like Indy. When I think deeply about it, I think that may just be the point.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:05 AM
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I think it's a combination of fear and dismissal. They're afraid to do it because what brings those people together today is usually the guise of a group or organization with ancient creeds. And, if they do come forward, people on message boards demand more truth than they can offer and, discouraged, they become alcoholics and "commit suicide" after their marriages fall apart.

My opinion.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:05 AM
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reply to post by schrodingers dog
 


IMO, only the small secrets/conspiracies have to be kept secret. They do not care about the big ones... because very few believe them. That is not a treat for them. That's because these true secrets are so outstanding from the average person's thinking and believing.

Read my signature. Do you think it is true? Most likely not. It's too "wild", huh? But I do believe. And I have it backed with my own, various experiences. That's what people account the most - the self-experience. Nothing is more relevant for anybody.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:05 AM
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reply to post by Merigold
 


Hey merigold,
On a personal lever I totally agree with you.
But on a practical level, when you compartmalize, on its own every conspiracy seems to be plausible. But how likely is it that tens of thousands of people can juggle countless conspiracies and still keep them secret?
I mean, even this government, which has been the most secretive in history, keeps getting caught out.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:13 AM
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reply to post by schrodingers dog
 


I know, and therin lies my quandry. Another poster said something which also has a ring of truth to me


IMO, only the small secrets/conspiracies have to be kept secret. They do not care about the big ones... because very few believe them.


Perhaps it's enough for "them" that most theories are too ludicrous to be true - Put enough crap out there and the truth drowns in sewage.

I just don't know, but I am always open to ideas. Though to be on the safe side I try and at least prepare myself mentally for upheavel.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:15 AM
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Originally posted by Disney
reply to post by schrodingers dog
 


IMO, only the small secrets/conspiracies have to be kept secret. They do not care about the big ones... because very few believe them. That is not a treat for them. That's because these true secrets are so outstanding from the average person's thinking and believing.



I suspect you're probably right in some cases. But if you go through the topics on ATS you'll find many conspiracies like Masonic, NWO, and many others which seem to be almost by definition to be unfeasible on a practical level. Not that these people don't plot against us, but rather that they are unlikely to succeed unable to overcome the logistics.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:21 AM
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reply to post by Merigold
 




Perhaps it's enough for "them" that most theories are too ludicrous to be true - Put enough crap out there and the truth drowns in sewage.


Yes, that's imo also pretty much what they are doing -> If there is truth somewhere, and you would like people not to reach it... but you can't destroy the truth, or the messenger, what do you do?
You create thousands of other, similar "truths", but they are not the very truths anymore, they only contain small pieces of it. That's why, IMO there are so many religions, cults and whatever else... to distract people from the real and ONLY absolute truth, which is still here somewhere. Imo, it's pretty much at universe-people.com. However, the people who run the site, indeed say that they have not the 100% truth, only 85-90%, but that is the most what is possible in this enviroment... enviroment where people behave like "attack the unknown" and so. They would not stand the 100%.

Sorry, maybe a little OT...



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:25 AM
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Originally posted by Disney
reply to post by Merigold
 




Perhaps it's enough for "them" that most theories are too ludicrous to be true - Put enough crap out there and the truth drowns in sewage.



You create thousands of other, similar "truths", but they are not the very truths anymore, they only contain small pieces of it.



I guess. I guess what I'm really asking where are the hundreds if not thousands of secret employees sitting creating and maintaining this avalanche of disinformation?



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:27 AM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
...Considering that there are hundreds of possible conspiracies discussed on this forum, can there possibly be tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who are working on a daily basis to initiate and maintain these conspiracies and still manage to keep them secret. Keep in mind your own place of business, the amount of people and time it takes to get even simple things done. Now take that and multiply it by ten because that is the pace of anything having to do in the government. I live in DC, trust me these people are neither the smartest nor the most motivated people you've ever met....


Scenario 1: Imagine one of those governmental offices as an entirely separate place. A "bizarro license branch" if you will. Imagine a guy walks in, pulls out a gun, puts it right to the forehead of the nearest person and says "If I do not have my license plates and drivers license in 3 minutes, I'm going to splatter your brains all over the wall. After the 3 minutes are up, I'm going to kill another person every 30 seconds." Do you think the guy would get his license plates and driver's license within the 3 minute time frame? The threat of death is a very good motivator.

Scenario 2: Imagine another guy. He works in "Bizarro Intelligence Agency". He finds out that his department has gone rogue, and has done horrible, horrible things. He tells his boss. His boss says "Interesting. Let's meet tomorrow at noon and discuss this". So, "honest guy" goes to the meeting. In it is his boss, and some big, mean looking dude. The boss says "You will forget what you saw, you will not report it, or I will have big, mean looking dude go to your house, rape your daughter, and kill your wife and son. Even worse, we're going to make you watch it live through a video feed." What do you think the reaction of "honest guy" would be? You think he MIGHT keep his mouth shut? After all, in uncovering these horrible deeds, he knows EXACTLY what they are capable of.

Scenario 3. "Honest Fred" in "Bizarro Intelligence Agency" stumbles across documents, audio and video recordings of a murder of a bunch of guys. He shows this to his boss. Because of "compartmentalization" (which Fred, dealing in Intelligence, is used to), the boss explains that he cannot tell Fred the official reason for the murder. But "off the record" these guys were plotting to blow up "famous place", and kill lots of people. "Honest Fred" now thinks, "It's a dirty business, but we have protected democracy". What "Honest Fred" doesn't know, is that the guys had helped "honest guy" build a case that any prosecutor would love.

Scenario 4: "Rogue Dude" works hard, comes up through the ranks of "Bizarro Security Agency". "Rogue Dude" get the assignment of being head of "black ops". The person who has assigned him this position believes "Rogue Dude" to be a trustworthy individual. That person was deceived. "Rogue Dude" then spends years putting in people loyal to only HIM in positions under him, people that think and believe as he does. "Rogue Dude" now has complete control of a fully sanctioned government office (though it doesn't "officially" exist). No one reports anything BECAUSE EVERYONE AGREES WITH "Rogue Dude"! Think this one is far fetched? I have 4 words for you: Oliver North Iran-Contra.

There you go. Four quick scenarios as to how people can be influenced to keep their mouths shut.

Incompetence is often used to mask indifference, or even outright hostility in governmental positions. Think about that the next time you see "government incompetence".



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:29 AM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
... I mean, even this government, which has been the most secretive in history, keeps getting caught out.


Think about this very carefully now: Would they still be "caught out" if the internet wasn't around?

If not, how do you think that makes them feel about the internet?



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:35 AM
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Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
... I mean, even this government, which has been the most secretive in history, keeps getting caught out.


Think about this very carefully now: Would they still be "caught out" if the internet wasn't around?

If not, how do you think that makes them feel about the internet?


I agree completely and this is precisely my point. I am not suggesting that there are no conspiracies. I'm just suggesting that sometimes we get carried away and don't consider enough the real world practicality of their application.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:56 AM
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I guess what I'm really asking where are the hundreds if not thousands of secret employees sitting creating and maintaining this avalanche of disinformation?


They are no where because they don't exsist in my opinion. This is why I dismiss most global conspiracies. I do believe there is some truth a sliver perhaps to the basic background of these conspiracies - but I think the truth is easily covered up with the lies.

So maybe instead of having a live alien at area 51 who telepathically communicated that there a 58 alien races and that there is a galactic council protecting us form the evil reptiles - what they actually have is some unexplained and clearly non human artifacts or wreckage which they can't explain..you understand what I mean. And not that I think those revelations wouldn't be anything but revolutionary, they would. This is why I am more inclined to believe the story of BoulderMD ( you can use search here to find out - Isn't he due back today?) for example but dismiss the NWO theory out of hand.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 05:04 AM
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reply to post by Merigold
 



I think that's right. Take The Bilderberg Group for example, I have no doubt they have great and sinister ambitions, but they also have bad prostates, pothead children, and erectile disfunction. They also have businesses to run and mistresses to maintain. realistically that doesn't leave a lot of spare time for world domination.

[edit on 13-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 06:49 AM
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I think that what you have to realize that it has been proven that there are conspiracies going on around us all of the time. By looking at these, we can disprove the idea that it would be impossible because someone would rat them out.

Lets look at Enron. Now I know that this wasn't an international conspiracy, etc, but it was still quite huge. This was a company that was worth 111 billion dollars, and employed 22,000 people, but was still able to pull off a scandal with no one knowing.

For years the tops of this company manufactured figures to embezzle money and no one was any the wiser. They even caused the California blackouts with no one knowing. How is that possible. Well, when you look closely at it, 99% of the company had no idea. Then they had people that only knew certain things. For example, they had share traders that were responsible for getting the blackouts rolling and trading to vastly increase profits. There were hundreds of these guys, but no one said a word.

The people at the top of the company were repeatedly looked into by outside sources, but they were able to convince everyone they were as clean as a whistle. Even the California governor pleading with Bush to look into them and Bush didn't. Ultimately, despite many people knowing, and all of the signs pointing to corruption, nothing came out. It wasn't until it was too late and all of the people had been screwed over did anything come to light

The combination of the fact that only a handful of people knew about the scandal, using scare tactics, disinformation, and greed kept everyone from opening there mouths. Although it sounds unbelievable, this actually happened.

Other large conspiracies have panned out also, the Serpico police corruption, Gulf of Tonkin, MK Ultra, Tuskegee Experiments; all of the conspiracies went on until it was to late to do anything.

Maybe your thinking, well some of these are different because there were whistle blowers that led to us finding out. Yeah, well maybe there are whistle blowers now. All the time we have government or military people claiming there are coverups going on, and no one believes them. People will believe that groups will cover up embezzling, but not UFO's. Because of this, the more ridiculous sounding the conspiracy, the easier it is to coverup.

The difference between Enron and NWO or alien conspiracies is that they way bigger and more powerful. So all of the tools that were used to prevent people from finding out something like Enron are magnified with these.

Lets look at the NWO conspiracy. If true, the NWO would have access to basically all forms of media through their vast power and wealth (not hard to believe when you realize about 6 corporations control all main stream media). Thats means they can completely control what most people think, and easily be able to get away with whatever they wanted.

Also, the greed factor is magnified. In Enron it was only money, but here its the complete control of the world. As for scare tactics, Enron may have made small threats, but the NWO could use their power to kill you, your family, friends, literally anything imaginable.

And I know it seems with something like UFO's or NWO that a lot of people would have to know, but remember in Enron, of about 22,000 people, almost all of them were helping Enron embezzle without even realizing it.

All of these factors combined make it easy to see how the biggest conspiracies can go unfound. That is why I hate when people will say things like "The gov. couldn't keep watergate a secret, so how could they keep 9-11 if it was a cover up" That just doesn't hold weight. Instead we should look at the evidence.

The majority of people in the world would think that any individual corporation was shady and is at some level covering up facts to get more money, but they refuse to believe that the government (which is ran by corporate lobbyists) is able to have a successful coverup.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by Grambler
 


The Enron example is a strange one. Mostly because you look at it and use it as an example of a successful conspiracy where as I look at as a complete failure. Enron got away with a lot, and a lot of people suffered, but ultimately the conspirators were caught, imprisoned , and even committed suicide. So for me, Enron illustrates my original point as to why most conspiracies are not practical. Like I said before, it's not that I don't believe that powerful people plan to conspire, it's just that they themselves usually underestimate the logistics of these conspiracies.

[edit on 13-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by Merigold

I guess what I'm really asking where are the hundreds if not thousands of secret employees sitting creating and maintaining this avalanche of disinformation?


They are no where because they don't exsist in my opinion. This is why I dismiss most global conspiracies. I do believe there is some truth a sliver perhaps to the basic background of these conspiracies - but I think the truth is easily covered up with the lies.


I agree. When we start discussing possible conspiracies here and in other forums we sort of generate our own self-propelled momentum. Each conspiracy weighed on it's own merits, which is correct on the short term. But on a macro level, if you look a the breadth and nature of these possible conspiracies, a lot of them are mutually exclusive, and there are just too many off them for all to be true. I know ATS members don't like to hear this, but we are supposed to look for the truth, not overreach for it. A little Occam's razor never hurt anyone.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by Grambler
 


The Enron example is a strange one. Mostly because you look at it and use it as an example of a successful conspiracy where as I look at as a complete failure. Enron got away with a lot, and a lot of people suffered, but ultimately the conspirators were caught, imprisoned , and even committed suicide. So for me, Enron illustrates my original point as to why most conspiracies are not practical. Like I said before, it's not that I don't believe that powerful people plan to conspire, it's just that they themselves usually underestimate the logistics of these conspiracies.

[edit on 13-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]


But it was only found out after the fact, once the people were already hurt. The only reason justice was brought to the was because they had a higher power to answer to. the law. But what if the NWO exists, who would they have to answer to. They would easily encompass the law agencies that would investigate them, therby making it highly unlikely it would ever be discovered. The important thing is not to remember Enron was caught, but they were able to get away with it for so many years. Your OP asked how conspiracies could be true without people leaking them, and this proves that its possible. The only thing that brought Enron dow was the fact that they were to greedy, and eventually law enforcement noticed. It had nothing to do with how many people knew the conpiracy.

You may say, well then hey, couldn't this prove all conspiracies would be impractical because they would get too greedy. No, because the NWO has no one to be held accountable to, so their greed wouldn't be called out and punished by a higher power. The point was we all lived through Enron and had no idea it was happening. Under your interpretation, one would have to look at every corporation now and saw that they can't be involved in a conspiracy, because Enron was caught.



posted on Jun, 13 2008 @ 11:45 PM
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reply to post by Grambler
 


Grambler,
To begin with it was you who brought up Enron. Personally, I regard the Enron scandal as nothing more than a high end scam to defraud and not a particularly clever one at that. A conspiracy to me involves several seemingly unconnected parties who indeed conspire to achieve a greater end that any of of these parties could achieve independently.

A conspiracy theory alleges a coordinated group is and/or was secretly working together to commit illegal or wrongful actions including hiding the existence of the group and its activities. In notable cases the hypothesis contradicts what was or is represented as the mainstream explanation for historical or current event.

So the Enron thing I don't think applies here. But even for the sake of argument, since a conspiracy or a scam is instigated by people with power, it is more reasonable to gage its success from the point of the conspirators. Unless the conspiracy is successful to its intended end it is a failed conspiracy as it was with Enron.
As far as the NWO is concerned, as I understand it is an ideology, not a one headed monster. It is a collection of powerful individuals, and they absolutely are subject and accountable to the laws of their individual nations of origin. And more importantly, as a collection of individuals they each possess greed, egomania, and all other human fallacies.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]



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