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What is "right"? What is "wrong"?

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posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 02:39 PM
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Please Read Fully, Then Post Comments

There are TWO points I will be trying to make in this post. They are: there is no right/wrong and there is no good/bad person.

What makes a “good” and “bad” person? Qualities? Actions? Yes.

Who says that these “qualities” and “actions” are “good” or “bad” and “right” or “wrong”? Society? Religion? Yes.

Religion tells us that killing, stealing and lying are “bad”. Why are they “bad”? Religion tells us what is “bad” and we listen because we were told what is “bad” since the day we were born. Religion also tells us what is “good”. Depending on your religion “good” is helping others, spreading faith and listening to your “higher being”. We listen to these teaching also.

Society tells us that “bad” is being weak, nerdy and obeying laws. Society also tells us that “good” is having money, killing and breaking rules (being a “tuff guy). We listen to society because we are constantly being told that these are “good” and “bad”.

Religion and society TELL us what is “good” and “bad”. We listen because we are being introduced to these teachings everyday. We don’t really listen to their teachings, it just comes naturally because the teachings were introduced to us since the day we were born.

Prehistoric man killed his own kind because it was his NATURAL instinct. His NATURAL instinct was: to do whatever it takes to survive. Now, people don’t kill people whenever they want, because they don’t NEED to in order to survive. That does not mean we should stop? We should do it for fun.

For example: prehistoric man killed animals in order to survive. Now we have stores to give us food to keep us alive. Does man having stores mean that we should stop hunting just because stores are able to keep us alive?

Prehistoric man lied, cheated, stole and killed in order to survive. Now that we have things (stores, money) that allow us to survive without doing “bad” things in order to survive does that mean we should stop?

Let’s say for example there is a toddler. That toddler is playing with his toys and he says “die” “die”. When the toddler’s mother comes in the room and says “no, killing is bad” that toddler has that rule in his mind forever. Now, if we have a toddler that has no concept of “good” or “bad” he will say “die” “die” because that is his NATURAL instinct.

When the toddler steals his brother’s lunch, because he his hungry, that is NATURAL. The toddler then gets his own lunch a couple minutes after his brother everyday so he become used to it and has no need to steal. Does that mean he should stop?
My point is religion/society tell us what is “good” and “bad” and we listen because we are CONSTANTLY told these things. There is no “right” or “wrong” because if we were NEVER told what was “right” and “wrong” we would do whatever we want and we would not think about it because that is our NATURAL instinct.

Now that we know that there is no “right” and “wrong” we can say that there is no “good” or “bad” person. Humans judge other humans by their OWN standards and that is why WE say that a person is “good” or “bad”.

If person A judged person B by his OWN standards he will come to the conclusion that person B is “good” or “bad”. You cannot judge a person by your own standards so there is no REAL conclusion that way. If person A judges person B by person B’s standards he will come to a conclusion that he is “good” or “bad”. BUT, there is NO “good”, “bad”, “right” and “wrong” because it is our NATURAL HUMAN instinct to do whatever it takes to survive no matter what religion/society tells us.

Please don’t tell me I am wrong because “God said killing is wrong”. Think about what I said fully then make your own decision without allowing anyone else to make the decision for you.

I am not saying go outside and kill people. I am saying to make decisions for yourself.






posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 02:49 PM
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I think each person should decide what is good and bad for themselves. That's what I do. I don't need some crazy religion to tell me that killing someone isn't a good thing. You made some good points. Society does tell us that being bad is actually good.



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 03:00 PM
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Good post!


Good and bad are not absolute terms; they are not constant. If two people are starving and one kills and eats the other, the eater does a good act to preserve his/her own life, but the eaten would see it as bad because the action ended his/her life.

Good and bad are just perceptions depending on where the one perceving it is standing. We all walk through life wearing invisible glasses that make us see things in relationship to ourselves; it is called ego. What is good is that which promotes our way of life and that which is bad causes harm to us. Since everyone sees things through their individual 'glasses', good and bad are relative to one's perception.



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 03:05 PM
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The concepts of good and bad are based firstly on what we are taught, by religion, society, laws, schools etc etc, and secondly on our own 'set of rules' (which some call our conscience).

Those 'taught' ideas are based on the beliefs of this particular time. What is 'bad' today would not have necessarily been considerd bad a thousand years ago and equally, what was considered normal at that time would not be accepted behaviour now. For example, trial by combat would be considered 'bad' nowadays, but in the Middle Ages was quite normal. So what you say is true, given those circumstances. There are no 'good' actions or 'bad' actions, only the manner in which they are viewed.

However, I do believe that each person is born with a general innate 'goodness'. You can see that when you watch children play. Yes, they can be nasty at times, but they treat each other equally and have no such concepts as racism or the idea that someone is better because they look prettier (for example).

This innate goodness is all too quickly changed into distrust and even hatred by the things we are taught. For example, take three children. A Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim. Put them together and they will play. Teach them of religion and they will argue and fight because they all are told that their religion is the one and only.

So in their opinion, they are 'good', while the other chilren are 'bad'. What has changed ? The Children themselves ? - No. Just their concept of themselves and others.

Thinking of this idea of 'good' and 'bad', The holocaust, and child abuse come to mind. Most of the people responsible for those crimes are either very sick or very controlled. Child abusers are sick individuals who can't be measured by normal standards. Abusing a child is a despicable act for us, but they think its ok. The Nazis believed that they were doing 'good' by killing millions of people. We, on the other hand consider their actions 'evil'. So yet again we have actions that are only considered 'good' or 'bad' by the way they are viewed.

So really, there is no 'good' and there is no 'bad'. Just good and evil actions, and the ways they are viewed subjectively and objectively.


[Edited on 4-3-2004 by Eireann]



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 03:19 PM
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This a very interesting and challenging topic. I have to take a different tack here. I think that there are things that are ultimatly wrong- wanton killing, rape, child molestation,etc. You can throw any abstract circumstance at these things but they are still wrong.

In a different vein, I think that other things that YOU think are bad, bother your conscience, are bad.
Judge for yourself, and in yourself, for what is "good" or "bad", let the courts do for others.



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 03:25 PM
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well smoking is bad and thats a bad quality but in indian religion its a belief of some kind....well i guess there is really nothing good or bad except for what you believe in...killing people may be bad but this twisted muslim religion loves killing people because it says you will go to heaven if you do....and they hate americans.....well they think pork oil will bring you to hell but in the USA we have BACONS and egg....and we have cheeseburgers....drink milk after having meat....its all in the belief system of religions...i dont think atheiests are athiests at all because they believe killing people is bad well christians arent supposed to kill people....so you see everyone has a religion and nobody is an athiest....i got REALLY off topic there....oh well



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 03:51 PM
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for this, i wouldl ike to post an excerpt from Days of War Nights of Love (Crimethinc.)

"I often think that we have not gotten beyond that first stage of rebellion in the hardcore scene. We criticize the actions of those in the mainstream and the effects of their society upon people and animals, we attack the ignorance and cruelty of their system, but we rarely stop to question the nature of what we all accept as "morality." Could it be that this "morality," by which we think we can judge their actions, is itself something that should be criticized? When we claim that the exploitation of animals is "morally wrong," what does that mean? Are we perhaps just accepting their values and turning these values against them, rather than creating moral standards of our own?

Maybe right now you're saying to yourself "what do you mean, create moral standards of our own? Something is either morally right or it isn't—morality isn't something you can make up, it's not a matter of mere opinion." Right there, you're accepting one of the most basic tenets of the society that raised you: that right and wrong are not individual valuations, but fundamental laws of the world. This idea, a holdover from a deceased Christianity, is at the center of our civilization. If you are going to question the establishment, you should question it first!

There is no such thing as good or evil
There is no universal right or wrong
There is only you...
and the values you choose for yourself. "

"Haven't you always been a little suspicious of the idea of universal moral truths, anyway? This world is filled with groups and individuals who want to convert you to their religions, their dogmas, their political agendas, their opinions. Of course they will tell you that one set of values is true for everybody, and of course they will tell you that their values are the correct ones. Once you're convinced that there is only one standard of right and wrong, they're only a step away from convincing you that their standard is the right one. How carefully we should approach those who would sell us the idea of "universal moral law," then! Their claim that morality is a matter of universal law is probably just a sneaky way to get us to accept their values rather than forging our own, which might conflict with theirs. "

this is just an excerpt, read the rest at:
Days of War, Nights of Love (Chapters)



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 05:01 PM
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im glad to see that some agree. this is a hard topic to discuss because most of us were brought up by religion/society. we have to think outside these "teachings" and make our own decisions.




posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 05:04 PM
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like the saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" so is right and wrong....it is all a matter of personal perception.



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 05:06 PM
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my point exactly world watcher...

make your own decisions by your own self...




posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 05:09 PM
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it's my personal belief that the basic laws of "good" and "bad" come from the basic idea of chaos vs order.

if you think about it, the only way you can apply good and bad ideas to the universe is through comparing different events and categorizing them under chaos and order.

chaos, meaning, alteration and/or destruction of certain properties that may or not bring rise to new forms of existing matter.

order, meaning, keeping things the same and continuous. the unalteration of certain properties to keep things in line. virtually nothing new is created or altered as a result. however, the system behind order is that items are created in a continuous manner.

the paradox for me is is chaos bad or good? is order bad or good?

[Edited on 3/4/2004 by AlnilamOmega]



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 05:44 PM
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You all are correct, there is no right/wrong or good/evil, but the most important thing to remember is legal/illegal.



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 05:47 PM
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It is a question of morality. I suppose some of the people here have read Nietzsche, and know about master and slave moralities.

Nietschze claimed that since God is dead, so should his morals be. He divided moralities into two groups- master and slave. Slave moralities (like the Christian one) claims that it is good to serve and protect the weak, because that is what we would want should we happen to become weak...or because we are. Master moralities favor strength, perseverence and cunning. Master moralities follow the precept that only the strong survive, so one should make hismelf as strong as possible, even at the cost of others.

Slave moralities view master moralities as wrong because they prevent them from teh opportunity to gain a measure of power from the collective weakness of its followers. Whether or not the followers of the slave morality have the capacity to become more than what they are is immaterial to tehm, as 'everybody deserves a chance'. However, Master moralities view slave moralities as wrong because they foster weakness and cowardice. Personal advancement is what is right to them.


That is an excellent example of 'right' and 'wrong' being arbitrary. Why is one more right than the other?

DE



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 06:13 PM
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i will tell you all this and this only
it is possible to go beyond right and wrong



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 06:16 PM
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Would you mind explaining that?



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
i will tell you all this and this only
it is possible to go beyond right and wrong


With the introduction of Nietzsche, are you refering to Beyond Good And Evil???



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx
It is a question of morality. I suppose some of the people here have read Nietzsche, and know about master and slave moralities.

Nietschze claimed that since God is dead, so should his morals be. He divided moralities into two groups- master and slave. Slave moralities (like the Christian one) claims that it is good to serve and protect the weak, because that is what we would want should we happen to become weak...or because we are. Master moralities favor strength, perseverence and cunning. Master moralities follow the precept that only the strong survive, so one should make hismelf as strong as possible, even at the cost of others.

Slave moralities view master moralities as wrong because they prevent them from teh opportunity to gain a measure of power from the collective weakness of its followers. Whether or not the followers of the slave morality have the capacity to become more than what they are is immaterial to tehm, as 'everybody deserves a chance'. However, Master moralities view slave moralities as wrong because they foster weakness and cowardice. Personal advancement is what is right to them.


That is an excellent example of 'right' and 'wrong' being arbitrary. Why is one more right than the other?

DE



in the article i posted for crimethinc, it speaks alot about this. "god is dead. and along with him, all of his morals."

no gods, no masters.

the code of ethics and morality should be a self proposed act, but we often base them off those of others. we yell at our parents when they try to teach us certain morals, yet they are not ofllowing them. thats what most of us do, we can attack and attack and attack but after the dust settles we have nothing with which to rebuild. we can attack people for not following their own morals, but that gets us nowhere, because we have none of our own.

make your own right and wrong.

or make none at all.

the choice is yours, but whatever you choos, it is not right, it is not wrong.

it just IS.



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 06:57 PM
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my points exactly Scat...

make youre own decisions. do not go outside and kill everyone and then blame it on me though!!!


the way i look at it: rules (societies and religions) are boundaries. they "block" us from what we are really capable of...

BUT that is for another post





posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 07:43 PM
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once you are completely liberated
you will know what it is to be beyond right and wrong



posted on Mar, 4 2004 @ 07:45 PM
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can u explain please???




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