Intelligent people less likely to believe in God

ALL of you posting here are religious. Agnosticism is a religion and so is athiesm and everything else inbetween.

Not only that...but all of your ideas and concepts are limited to each individuals objective definition to anything any of you says...which is limited ot the readers level of intelect, culture, bias, gender, emotions and so on.

But...to say there is no such thing as absolute truth is an absolute statement.

Non of you are who you think you are. You are not your ego, you are not your personality, you are not your likes and dislikes, you are not your emotions, you are not just a petty limited human body, you are not any of the things that this modern day culture instilled in you, you are not what your parents/teachers taught you, and most importantly, you are not what any stupid book tells you.

TO find out who you are no need to go within and beyond logic, beyong ego, beyond any of these things, beyond rationality.

God is 100% true. I experience this reality daily and would be willing to wager any price on this fact.

Whereas everyone with opposing views, im sure you wouldnt be willing to wager any price on your stances now would you????

I know God and divine realities are 100% true and real....but can you be 100% sure of your stances????

I experience my stance daily and directly, all of your opposing stances are your speculations based on non-experience, books, shows, peers, politics, and intellectual assumptions, etc.

AT the same time, knowing what I know is a gift and a curse...because I know if everyone experienced what I do...it would be the end of ego, the end of seperatism, the end of corruption, end of wars, end of murders, end of rape, the end of hunger and the beginiing of a theocracy.

But guess what???? No body wants to listen cause everyone thinks they'r assumptions and speculations are right.

And one someone who has experienced truth and knows the truth directly speakes up.....all of the opposition thinks this is also assumption and specualtion...but its not.

The truth that is God is out there and is real and is Omnipresent. If you cant get into it because you think its all about punishment and reward then your missing the point. Just as there are laws of gravity...you jump off the Grand Canyon you die......so are there spiritual laws...you kill or rape somebody, it will come back to you 10-100 fold. Its a matter of childish interpretations by people here who are claiming to be intellectual athiests or agnostics and then I hear some of the stupidest things ever come out of your mouths.

High IQ and intellect can be dangerous...how so??? It can lead people into selfish egotism. That reflects on the work place and co-workers hate you, wife and kids hate you, friends hate you, everyone int he family hates you...and you become this lonely bitter old richard dawkins type. I've seen this with my own eyes countless times and I've made athiests cry when they come to this relaization that it was their own ego's that lead to a divorce or a childs suicide or a daughter to go on drugs because of the lack of compassion.

Of course the same could be said about a religious and dogmatic catholic or Christian. But these are all false egos and lack of genuine spirituality. God is real and those who know operate in levels of IQ and intelligence that people dont even know exist....transcendentally speaking.

reply to post by dominicus


Wow i have not seen so much hot air since the Hindenburg went down .. Congratulations you have just set a new precedence in FAIL.

You sound like an advocate for the COS .. Have you transcended to a level 3 cleric yet?

High IQ and intellect can be dangerous...how so??? It can lead people into selfish egotism. That reflects on the work place and co-workers hate you, wife and kids hate you, friends hate you, everyone int he family hates you.

Actually you have this backwards.. Dumb jock god fearer(s) grow up to be drunks that beat there wifes..
Intelligent people don't believe in owning female slaves.

Really how often do you hear about a scientist going nuts and killing his family then himself?
I can get you hundreds of thousands of accounts from around the bible belt of drunk redneck Christians doing so .. Who is the dangerous ones?

Do you have someone controll the computer for you ? ... If not how the heck can you trust that its not going to just blow up at any second?
Maybe a little of your "faith" has reached into the scientific world..
Odd . Seeing as were all for the most part trying to destroy everything your people have worked so hard to build..


I say if you don't support science . Go live with the Amish .. Hell . At least they live by there teachings . And don't try to tell me my hate for religion .. is in itself a religion ..

Btw.. A dictionary term used out of context . Does not prove a thing.. If i say "potato" does that finally convince you there is no god?

Words and definitions are man made just like your god..


[edit on 14-6-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]

Actually, you just took the prize for adding a post that has nothing of value in it.

How many times can we chase our tail in one thread? Nobody is listening to anyone else!

If you really believe something, you don't go around shouting about it. I believe the sun will come up tomorrow. It isn't important to me whether or not you believe it, too. So why is there so much passion inside of atheists to convince themselves they are right?

[edit on 14-6-2008 by applebiter]

So you are saying religion is at fault when a man beats his wife or gets drunk?

reply to post by applebiter


Or were just sick of having delusional people put words/beliefs in our mouths..

Its like a bully in school .. They kick you while your down . And try to drag you to there level .. Once you feel as worthless as they do . Then there job is done and on to the next victim.

So you are saying religion is at fault when a man beats his wife or gets drunk?

No actually i was using it as an example of how stupid his comment sounded . And how when turned around . You have to see the irony in it.. As how can you defend one statement and not the other..

[edit on 14-6-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]

You aren't angry with religion. You're angry with intellectual and moral laziness. We could agree on this point and build on it...

reply to post by applebiter


No i more think we should file a lawsuit against religions across the world for intentionally hampering evolution..

Its one of the grand catch 22's ..


[qoute]
If you really believe something, you don't go around shouting about it. I believe the sun will come up tomorrow. It isn't important to me whether or not you believe it, too. So why is there so much passion inside of atheists to convince themselves they are right?


Lame attempt.. The sun doesn't "come up" The earth rotates around the sun. Not the other way around..
Btw arguing something provable in place of something not has a definition . I believe its a "straw man" tactic in disguise..

[edit on 14-6-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]

Sure is a Catch 22 if I ever saw one. Religions preceded modern science by a loooong distance. Religion gave rise to protoscience, or "magic". It was a way of cataloging patterns in nature, albeit a crude one. Protoscience gave rise to modern science. Modern science as you seem to perceive it is now having to deal with the mystery of human consciousness, and this is the foundation of religion itself, which was not a starting point, but a sociological/psychological encrustation. The drive to strive towards an absolute is the least intellectually or morally lazy component of this whole cycle. Materialist scientists do it by zooming in on details; parsimoniously studying discrete parts of nature in the faith that they are working towards a holistic scientific paradigm. Deists, or rather, mystics, strive as generalists, reaching out into the No Man's Land of consciousness for God. We all have our part to do. If we can maintain balance, we win. If we can urge people to put their minds to use in either direction, we win. If we all sit around, whining about the stereotypes maintained by lazy intellects, then we all lose.

Added: It isn't a straw man. I think you were going for "weak analogy". But it isn't one. It's valid.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by applebiter]

Originally posted by applebiter
So why is there so much passion inside of atheists to convince themselves they are right?

What's that meant to mean? Really?

Do you mean that atheists have a passion to ensure the most valid positions and the ability for recursive thinking, rather than rigid dogmatic drone-like adherence to some neatly packaged culture-bound belief system?

Just asking...



[edit on 14-6-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


Do you mean that atheists have a passion to ensure the most valid positions and the ability for recursive thinking, rather than rigid dogmatic drone-like adherence to some neatly packaged culture-bound belief system?

What on earth makes you think that I am stuck in a "rigid dogmatic drone-like adherence to some neatly packaged culture-bound belief system"? You can't hear me and you can't see me. You are arguing with a phantom of language that is taking up precious space in your mind. If you are so valiant and brave, why not let your guard down and talk to me as if I were a human with a mind instead of an institution of your own fears?

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by Quazga

 

The problem is there isn't a "fallacy about why people believe in god," just as there isn't a fallacy behind why atheists don't believe in god. I think what you are blind to is the fact that most people who don't believe in God aren't really thinking about anything other than the fact its trendy and popular to do so.

Atheism is like its own pill - belief in nothing gives you freedom to do things that may be socially taboo, even if not illegal. It allows you to rebel, and best of all, feel smug and intellectual about yourself. Its a good pill. I'm all for it. But just because it works doesn't mean its anything more than a carefully crafted illusion.

As I said, I have no problem with atheists - whether they are that way to be trendy and be cool while bashing religion, or whether they have actually thought about what they are saying.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

What *is* your issue with "Trendy" and "Fads". You continue to mention this as a reason for things. I think that is a over simplistic view of looking at things.

Can't you understand someone who isn't anti-religion, but just doesn't believe in God? I know for a fact, that anything someone claims to "know" is simply a belief. And I too cringe at "arrogance" because it comes from all people, atheists and believers.

What I think you are blind to, due to your own experiences, is the fact that someone can simply not believe in God.

Let me give you an example. I will go to Church when things are rough in life because when I sing the songs in a joyous way along with other people, I feel a lot better. Now, this isn't any different than when I go to a concert and sing songs with others who like the same band. I can get the same thing from a Hootie and the Blowfish concert as I can from the local mega church. But, the mega church is closer.

The truth is, when used right, the religious experience is a great "mood enhancer". But just because the pill works, doesn't mean that I have to think it's magic.

Originally posted by applebiter
What on earth makes you think that I am stuck in a "rigid dogmatic drone-like adherence to some neatly packaged culture-bound belief system"? You can't hear me and you can't see me. You are arguing with a phantom of language that is taking up precious space in your mind. If you are so valiant and brave, why not let your guard down and talk to me as if I were a human with a mind instead of an institution of your own fears?

Didn't say you were. I was just attempting to get you to clarify what you meant.

You said that atheists basically have a passion to show to themselves they are right. Now this isn't really a bad thing. I have assessed the current evidence and reject the god hypothesis.

However, I reassess this often. For example, someone might present some argument for belief in god. I assess it, and make an inference. But I wouldn't say this is to show I'm right, just that it is the most reasonable position for me. Problem is, I'm not sure anyone has any new arguments since C.S. Lewis, heh.

So, what would you rather people do?

Stick blindly and dogmatically to their non-belief/belief. Or be able to think recursively? Reassessing the evidence when appropriate?

Or was it just a complaint that atheists make their belief public? You know, write a few books, have a seminar now and again? If this was the issue, would you rather we just shut up and leave religious talking heads to have the floor?

In sum, what's the problem?

[edit on 14-6-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


Honestly? I think it's up to each individual to do the intellectual and spiritual heavy lifting.

The first thing we have to do is get rid of labels. C.S. Lewis was a good writer, but when my ethics professor gave me some of his literature to take home and critique, I tore him a new one. C.S., and many other philosophers, have tried desperately (and in vain, in my opinion) to build an edifice of words that will support the weight of religious conviction.

As a former "weak atheist" (not a derogatory term, but an academic one), I feel confident in saying that it is impossible to prove the existence of God using reason alone. Can't be done. Well, it hasn't yet been done, and I'm not going to hold my breath until it has.

That having been said, I know that it is possible to conclusively prove the existence of God by way of direct experience.

Originally posted by dominicus
ALL of you posting here are religious. Agnosticism is a religion and so is athiesm and everything else inbetween.

Ahoy there, Dominicus. The 'athiesm is a religion' argument has been thoroughly debunked in past threads here at A.T.S., it's simply not true.

I'm no believer but the claim that religious people are dozier than non-religious is laughable and insulting (not saying the thought of it doesn't make me smile personally though)

Comparison of "The best facts and estimations" available to "faith" (A strict rule of order) Is going out on quite a limb.. Its the bully argument again .. You try to bring what we (are/believe/do) into the realm of what you (are/believe/do) .
To make it seem comparable.
It just isn't

reply to post by d11_m_na_c05


You are absolutely right, I have 3 female slaves because I am Christian...
It is actually foolish for this study to conclude that there are more intelligent people who do not believe in God. You have not went around the world and asked everyone. I want to know who Professor Lynn surveyed, and how many people he surveyed.

Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.

How is that even correct? There are more Catholics then there are Atheists. This was a survey done by Minnesota Daily’s Survey Research Department.
Religion Survey

I am sorry I can not post the table because it looked terrible. Scroll down to the tables. This was done in the University of Minnesota.

Generalizing a whole group of individuals because they believe in a God is wrong. They can believe in God and at the same time study the same thing as an Atheist studies. Why would an Atheist automatically increase in IQ because he stopped believing? Psychologically it does not make sense.

Let us not forget his controversial research which basically labeled most of the blacks dumb.

“I concluded that the average IQ of blacks in sub-Saharan Africa is approximately 70. It has long been known that the average IQ of blacks in the United States is approximately 85. The explanation for the higher IQ of American blacks is that they have about 25 per cent of Caucasian genes and a better environment.” Gosh.

I can't really believe people actually think that because they are Atheist they are the smartest beings. Why do you think that? Is it because you seem to think you see this world with logic, while we are dumb and don't know anything? Far from it. Many believers study evolution. Many believers go to university. In fact the smartest guy in America believes in a higher being.
He also believes in evolution. Christopher Michael Langan.

Originally posted by applebiter
Honestly? I think it's up to each individual to do the intellectual and spiritual heavy lifting.

Fair enough, but I'll stick with the reason & evidence-based stuff myself.

Spirituality sometimes appears to be as meaningless as the concept god to me. If you mean subjective emotional feelings, OK.

have tried desperately (and in vain, in my opinion) to build an edifice of words that will support the weight of religious conviction.

OK. I think I agree. In my experience, there are no real robust intellectual arguments for belief in what most people consider god.

As a former "weak atheist" (not a derogatory term, but an academic one), I feel confident in saying that it is impossible to prove the existence of God using reason alone. Can't be done. Well, it hasn't yet been done, and I'm not going to hold my breath until it has.

Heh, no worries. I'm a weak atheist myself. I tend to use the term 'agnostic atheist' as people (i.e. theists) appear to understand it easier when explained.

That having been said, I know that it is possible to conclusively prove the existence of God by way of direct experience.

OK. So essentially you prove god to yourself by way of subjective experience, devoid of reason (or at least a secondary concern)? If so, it sort of fits what I think. I feel belief in god is basically a subjective emotion-based belief bolstered by intrinsic human cognitive biases.

My opinion of course. Hope you can see I wasn't attacking or denigrating you earlier. Just wanted to get to the nitty-gritty.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by DaleGribble


It drives me insane how so so many think and say this. Being open minded is NOT accepting everything!!! Its looking at something from all possible perspectives without any preconcieved judgments/opinions/beliefs or whatever you would like to call it and THEN coming to a conclusion. You dont just go saying that someone is narrow or closed minded because they are firm in a belief without knowing thier reasons for being firm.

One man could be a complete idiot never giving any thought for anything and belive the very same thing an intelligent person does who has devoted most of his energies to seeking some sort of alternative. Now they both belive in the exact same thing and both are just as firm in defending and imposing this belief but would you really say they are equally "minded" in terms of open/close when one has spent more time looking at things through different perspectives than most people and one hasnt lifted his foot to take the step towards such a thing?

Point: Beliving one thing as opposed to something else has nothing to do with being open or closed minded only the process giving birth to said conclusion reflects such a thing.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by TurnOnTuneInDropOut]

reply to post by Quazga


We live in a world where people are strongly influenced by the media's agenda, which creates a never ending string of intellectual trends and fads. Anti-religion is just the newest one, although others are emerging such as Anti-USA and Anti-Democracy/Republic.

I do not believe you can be a genuine atheist and have a hatred religion without having a hatred for every other institution - in which case, you would be a very bitter person. People who are atheists because they have examined the evidence, again, do not couch their dogma in terms of bashing religion. They realize religion in and of itself is nothing but one of many societal institutions. Those who concentrate on bashing religion usually do so out of the trendiness of it and the fact that its much easier to bash something than explain yourself. As you can see on ATS, all you have to do is rant about how religion sucks and it results in 30 stars and countless pages of back slapping and everyone talking about how enlightened they are for being against religion.

Being "anti-religion" is pretty ignorant, you might as well be "anti-human condition," but those who are, are of course, free to buy into the media propaganda that has shaped the trend.

I think what it comes down to is that people are just so used to being hip by bashing religion it has never occurred to them that you could be an actual atheist with logic on your side by not bashing it.

I would contribute more to this discussion, but for some reason, my first two posts are not showing up in the thread. It's pretty obvious that a logical debate isn't wanted here, so I wish all of you luck with your thoroughly censored conversation.