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Originally posted by SGTChas
The rings of the Planet Saturn are unstable and moving away from the planet. If the solar system was as old as evolutionist and cosmologist claim, Saturn would no longer have rings.
Responses:
1: Presumably, this is intended to be an argument for a young universe. However, the age of Saturn's rings only places a lower limit on the age of the universe, not an upper limit. If they formed yesterday, that does not mean the universe is only 1 day old (the universe would be at least 1 day old).
2: One of the most popular models to describe the formation of planetary rings involves a catastrophic collision between objects near Saturn (say a comet and one of Saturn's moons); there is no requirement that this collision happened at the moment that Saturn was formed.
3: Saturn's rings are unstable, and could not be more than (several dozen) million years old, unless they are periodically replenished. No physicist has ever argued that Saturn must have formed with its rings in order for the Big Bang theory to be correct. That makes the observation interesting, but irrelevant.
4: Such a ring structure could be formed by a large, weakly-composed comet passing within Saturn's Roche limit, and breaking up to form an accretion disc around the planet. This could have happened at any time in the past, a million years ago, a billion years ago, or more, and it would have no bearing at all on the status of the Big Bang theory, or even the age of the planet Saturn.
Originally posted by SGTChas
Comets continuously loose material and only last approximately 10,000 years by current estimates, which means of course our solar system cannot be billions of years old. However, in an attempt to explain this, a Dutch Astronomer named Jan Ort proposed that a shelf of comets exists at the far frontiers of our solar system from which comets are replenished. This “Ort” cloud of comets is 50 astronomical units away (an astronomical unit is the distance between the sun and earth). As we now know that the mathematical equations used for this hypothesis were not correct; nor has anyone observed the “Ort” cloud, and even Pluto at 39 astronomical units is barely observable, this has now become a conclusion that is in a search for the evidence to support it.
Responses:
1: In order to calculate the number of comets that should exist today, we need to know not only the rate at which they are being removed from the system, but also the rate at which they are being added. If, for example, the two rates are identical then no problem exists. This rate is one of the fundamental assumptions of this form of dating method, so evidence must be provided for it being less that the removal rate and more-or-less constant over a long time before the dating method can be used.
2: Comets lose material mainly when they enter the inner solar system and are heated by the sun. Short-period comets (i.e., comets of the inner solar system that frequent our skies) do lose material quickly. Long-period comets originate from the distant reach of the solar system and can spend billions of years away from the sun's heat. Their material is preserved. Long period comets originate from the Kuiper Belt and the Oort Cloud. Objects within the Kuiper Belt have been directly observed. Although the Oort Cloud has not been directly observed, there are many direct observations of long-period comets whose orbits extend out to the region of the Oort Cloud.
3: Consider a 10-year-period comet: If this comet was created at the YEC moment of Creation, 6 to 10 millennia ago, it's made at least 600 passes near the Sun, which is more than enough to boil it down to the bare rock. Thus, under a YEC paradigm, there are only two alternatives: Either (a) Short-period comets simply don't exist, or else (b) There is a mechanism which replenishes the supply of comets.
4: Many Kuiper Belt Objects have been directly observed (i.e., many objects orbiting the sun at the distance defined as the Kuiper Belt). Pluto and Charon (Pluto's moon) can be considered two of them.
5: Although the Oort Cloud has not been directly observed, its presence is strongly suggested by the direct observation of long-period comets that occasionally pass through the inner solar system.
6: Let us suppose the YECs are correct to suppose that the Solar System is only 6 to 10 millenia old. This is long enough for comets of periods 10 years or less to have approached the sun at least 600 times -- and 600+ close Solar approaches is more than enough to boil any comet down to the bare rock. But we still observe short-period comets which have not been boiled down to the bare rock; therefore, even under a YEC time-scale, there must be at least one source of new comets such as the Oort Cloud and/or Kuiper Belt.
7: The Oort Cloud is not an ad-hoc hypothesis. It is a necessary consequence of our solar evolution model, and since its proposal has been widely supported by observation. It was not proposed in order to explain the origin of comets, and indeed it is not fundamentally "a region of space filled with comets". Comets are a relatively insignificant ramification of the Oort Cloud's existence, in comparison to many others.
Originally posted by SGTChas
The oldest reef in the world is the Great Barrier Reef, which is off of the coast of Australia and has been calculated to be 4200 years old. If the earth is as old as claimed, why are there no older reefs?
Originally posted by SGTChas
The 6% of the earth’s magnetism has been lost in the last 150 years. At that rate of decay of the earth’s magnetic field, 30,000 to 40,000 years ago it would have been too strong for life to exist on earth at all. The hypothesis put forward to explain this is called the Magnetic Field Reversal Theory. It is based on the alternation of the stronger and weaker magnetic fields across the Mid Atlantic Ridge; which proves only surface variations of the earth’s magnetic field and not a global reversal. Another conclusion in search for evidence which is also in clear violation of the second law of Thermal Dynamics.
Responses:
1: The current mainstream model for the earth's magnetic field is a dynamo model which would cause occasional drops in the magnetic field's intensity and even total reversals. Paleomagnetic data confirms that historically the magnetic field has changed in a way similar to what one would expect from the dynamo model. Assuming a constant decay rate, as this claim does, is a naive, unthinking approach not covered by any working models.
2: The earth's magnetic field is driven by fluid motion in the core, and it has been recorded by ferro-magnetic minerals for 3 billion years. Since the work of Königsberger (1938) and Carpozen (Nature, 2004), there is some strong physical evidence against Earth having been created in 6 days, 6000 years ago.
3: YECs argue against geological uniformitarianism, which is supported by mass amounts of evidence. However, they make a uniformitarion assumption in the magnetic field argument, and their assumption is not even supported by the evidence.
Originally posted by SGTChas
reply to post by marg6043
Some links that discuss the scientific facts mentioned:
www.reasons.org...
www.drdino.com...
www.answersingenesis.org...
www.khouse.org...
www.khouse.org...
Originally posted by OzWeatherman
This is the biggest thumbs down to any scientific thread I have seen
Originally posted by SGTChas
reply to post by OzWeatherman
Don't argue "manipulation" if you cannot disprove the math... The laws of physics and many other laws CANNOT BE MANIPULATED! Prove the math wrong or move on.
All those sites are religion based pretty much meaning that science has been manipulated to fit in with the text from the bible
Conclusion: When confronted with three solid reasons why the Earth is old, young-Earth creationists will say "That's just how God made it", but therein lies a problem - a very big problem. If the Earth was, indeed, made in a single, supernatural act 10,000 years ago, then God, for some reason, left behind as part of the record of His creation these isotopic abundances, measurable rates of the movement of the Pacific and Atlantic Plates, and two valid methods of age determination, all of which show beyond any doubt that it was not created in a supernatural act some 10,000 years ago.
Ask yourself, "Why would God leave evidence that speaks against the actual record?" We may say that God can do things in anyway that He desires. God chose to be self-limiting. He is the God of order and laws such as gravity. God is good, just and truthful. This allows humans to trust a world that makes sense.
The final determination that must be made is that the record of nature, being God's record, is trustworthy as God has chosen not to lie to us. To say that He would lie would impart a most profound deviousness to God, which would be heresy. Therefore the only possible conclusion we can reach is that the Earth is old - very old.
All the "appearance of age" arguments made by young-Earth creationists to try to explain away the evidences of an old Earth are equally heretical. God did not put false clues under our feet to trick us. He gave us clues to show us His true creation and the way He did it. If God took 4.5 billion years to create the Earth, then so be it. It is far more in line with a firm faith to believe in a God-created old Earth than to believe that a devious god is trying to trick us into not believing in a supernatural creation.
A creationist in a pretrial deposition before the McLean vs. Arkansas trial in 1981 questioning the legality of Arkansas Act 590, exposed their own heretical views of the Creator with the following statement from pages 186-87 of the trial transcript:
As used in the context of creation-science as defined by Section 4 of Act 590, the terms or concepts of "creation" and "creator" are not inherently religious terms or concepts. In this sense, the term "creator" means only some entity with power, intelligence and a sense of design. Creation science does not require a creator who has a personality, who has the attributes of love, compassion, justice and so on which are ordinarily attributed to a deity. Indeed, the creation-science model does not require that the creator still be in existence.
One can scarcely imagine a more dispassionate faith statement by people who claim to be Christians. The Creator God the young-Earth creationists present would be a capricious, disposable, uncaring, unloving and probably dead god.
To conclude, we have examined the young-Earth creationist views of the age of the Earth and read their own view of the Creator. In both cases the paradigm of "Young-Earth Creationism" has been found to be based on a most outrageous heretical theology and must be rejected by persons of faith.
Originally posted by SGTChas
reply to post by OzWeatherman
20,000 years? 25 million years? Really? Who OBSERVED or QUANTIFIED YOUR tossed out figures sir? I have this 450 year old Timex watch I'd like to sell you.