Robert Mugabe's militia burn opponent's wife alive

reply to post by Lambo Rider


The "Musket wars' of the Māori comes to mind but that's just in the modern age where firearms led to such a great disparity in lethality and range. Similar arguments can be made throughout history as bronze and Iron weapons, and later armor of various metals, and various ranged weapons came into use. The tribes or formative nations/people's that managed to arm themselves in such ways were normally able to to settle historic scores and grievances with relative abandon given sufficient organizational ability.

Weapons don't make for wars but they are enabler's when there are already disagreements to settle or land to be defended.

Originally posted by rjmelter
Woot Woot, Way to speak your mind stellar.

Very good points.

For 3300 posts and counting, yes. As to the 'good points' i just take the silence to mean that no one has sufficient commitment to 'facts' i disagree with to actually risk getting involved in the long drawn our discussions i dislike so much...

The more I look at the news and check out ATS for more info the more of a combining effect I see. Its like the world is finally being caught and the links are slowly staring to link together.

I think the people of the world, beside maybe Americans ( since a good many of them seem to think we are already 'against' them i can't help but fuel that particular fire. ) have a good idea of what's happening and why so many of us are suffering. We try to get rid of these people but since they are armed and defended by foreigners who seem to have impossibly deep pockets we frequently just give up try to survive to the best of our abilities; human nature isn't very heroic when it comes to fighting almost impossible odds.

I belieive that Africa does need help its absolute craze and greed in some of the countrys. Its very sad. However what can be done with ignorance.

As is the case for much of the recently formally decolonized ( and i say formally to differentiate from neo colonialism which is as devastating) world where the poorest in some instances worse off than they were before. Now that the colonizers are gone the local governmental security forces cracks the whips and since they are far better informed as to what's going on in their own country they are far more efficient at keeping the virtual slave corporate slave labor camps going. It IS very say but it's not due to the ignorance of Africans but to a historical imbalance of ( mostly fire but also organizational ) power that Africans, and many others including South-America, South East Asia etc, have not managed to rectify completely.

There needs to be a well thought out plan and with all the fussing the rest of you are showing I doubt yall will come up with it.

There ARE well thought out plans hence the fact that the first world so often intervenes in the third world to stage assassinations and economic terrorism. It's not the developing world doesn't know what they should be doing but that those who try are stomped on , when they refuse to step down, or have their leaders killed or infrastructure devastated. The plan is there but since those who hold power now will lose much of it if we the people succeed they are doing what they can to impede societal progress everywhere.

Its time the world starts working together instead of against each other.

Well they do their best but what can you do when supposedly freely chosen representatives more often than not turn on their people or at least undermine their efforts sufficiently to impede much progressive change? Why do the leaders that seem to get to the top keep turning on their people? Who the hell are they working for if not us?

Im tired of the BS anyways. My Subconscious is a Soldier, My Conscious is a Fighter, and right now both of them are getting pretty Angry... In the words of the hulk... you wouldn't like me if I was angry

lol.

You and a couple million Vietnamese ( insert anti colonial movement) yes who somehow managed to keep up the decades worth of struggle despite horrendous casualties and privation for those that didn't die outright. The history of humanity is filled with examples where entire people with no super powers resisted foreign interventions at great cost to themselves. Sure many of them were imperial powers themselves but in modern times the examples are starker as the disparity in power and organization have grown.

Sorry... bad joke. But seriously. Africa needs help. If the Governments wont do it. Then we the people are still the people and are the only ones that can.

The only 'help' Africa needs is the help that would result from Africa being left completely to its own devices. Things will get worse, as western, and a few eastern, backed dictators are removed and their loyalist forced into exiled or murdered/prosecuted for past crimes but without foreign help the local tyrants will probably not be able to sustain the oppression of their own people and are even less likely to be able to intervene in neighbouring countries. Depending on the actions of the not at all free markets millions would probably starve and many tens of millions more would go even hungrier but at the very least we would be working in the right direction with no foreign hands to take the little bit of wealth that are slowly being generated. These things have all transpired before so relatively good examples can be found if one starts looking.

WORK TOGETHER, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

'We' do our best but that 'they' are as good or better and almost always seem to have the right person in place to undermine our best plan leaving us with progress that isn't always on balance even in the right direction.

So yes, we should work together, but how would you like it if you were trying to fix you car and could occasionally observe a largely invisible guy pulling out wires and generally making a mess of your best efforts? That is EXACTLY what the balance of power is about and what those with more of it tend to do with the economies and social structures of those they have some power over.

Stellar

reply to post by fred3110


Why is it the world looks on while all this barbarism simply continues?? For let us all be brutally honest, if transpired in other, more selected lands, the world would be up in arms!!

As one born to those once saner lands, all this has to have the world asking some rather pertinent questions. As with: what truly lies behind all this, to simply allow such a small land and group in world terms, to constantly get away with it or human right violations?

Go to www.nextagemission.com and perhaps where some answers of what truly is going on is located.

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
reply to post by Quazga

 

Why don't you go download the movie 'Threads' and then let us know if you're sill all about destroying everything for no reason other than 'it's there and it's high time'.

By your logic I could say, 'hey I have a gun and I haven't used it....it's high time I popped a cap in somebody.'
I could say it, but then I'd be an idiot.

You obviously don't see my reasoning.

Heres the deal. High levels of cruelty can only be offset by deterring it. But first you need an example.

I'm not saying do it for the heck of it. I'm saying do it very deliberately for the purpose of calling attention to what happens when cultures "teach cruelty".

I don't care if it is a square block of a city, or a nation, or an entire continent that goes. We have too many people on this planet to begin with. So what's the loss of a culture which "teaches cruelty".

I'm just saying that we should act like the Old Testament God, and punish the unrighteous nations as a whole and without hesitation.


Believe me, there would be a *whole* lot less of this type of murder if people knew that the repercussions were the complete eradication of a culture.

omg i didn't even know there were people as stupid as you that actualy existed. U.S.A. has probably the sickest scum in the world... so maybe we should nuke U.S.A. to make an example to the world. but wait when you nuke stuff it doesn't just go away, it stays there for decades, centuries. oh but thats alright, if we do it old testament style and in the name of god, everything will be A-OK.................naaaaaaaaaaaaat.

Originally posted by fred3110
Its s*** like this that the UN should be sorting out.

If the UN wanted to retain some credibility it should at least begin talks on removing him from power instead of looking the other way, I bet if there was oil in Zimbabwe the UN would be all over this like a rash.

Its a sad state of affairs when an international organisation focuses more on economics than morality.

WTF are you talking about, It was the U.S.A. and Britain that invaded a country for oil , NOT the UN so don't go blaming th UN for your BS. the UN i a colaboration of nations and isn't realy a single entity.The UN does good work and yea it would be great if someone could go in an stick a cap in his head, but people could equaly say that about George bush or Tony blair, its not like the sh*t they've done in their offshore prisson camps is much better than this, bombing weddings because you herd gun shots isnt that great either. and hell the U.S.A. an is supposed to be a democracy so whats your excuse for ol george being in power for so long, congratz on UK. for getting rid of tony.

Africa is a freaking mess...

And this is the way of African Politics...

Mabye in a few hundred year, after all the 'freedom fighters' are done, they will get tired of killing each other...

Probaly not, i mean Europe has been fighting each other for 1000's of years, and only the last 60 have they not been killing each other...

Let Africa sort itself out. I dont want the US playing the role of 'protector to the world'.

No American lifes should be lost on those in Africa.

reply to post by Nzstalion


Hey bud, learn to quote and then post.

All people aren't like that in the U.S. just like all people arent like that in Africa, China, Russia, Italy, England, Thailand, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, Canada etc. Alright? Do you understand that we are all human and that we all deserve a choice. QuazGA was Ignorant for saying the Nuke thing... and i couldn't tell if it was your quote that stated use them too or what but... Learn to Love whoever you are. Maybe research some psychology... just because they are black does not mean that their minds do not function the same as ours. They have a soul too... the only difference is they are not educated the same as we are and they dont have the same oppurtunities that we have to motivate either. Its sad how very ignorant any individual is that doesn't know that a black man and a white man are the same but different at the same time... is that so hard to grasp? Im white.... However I respect the chinese race of people far more then the whites due to greed but oh wait.... there are greedy chinese people too! Whats the world coming to if you cant even trust a white man! lol... something to think on. ALL you need to focus on is Self Love and Love for Others... the rest will follow sir. Good luck to you.

[edit on 17-6-2008 by rjmelter]

reply to post by Nzstalion


So is that above post directed at me because I started this thread??

Did I say it was the UN who invaded a country for oil, I'm not stupid I know whos invading whom for oil? How am I blaming the UN for "my" BS, with that line your implying that I agree with the war of terror, how do you come to this conclusion have I stated anything of the kind in ANY of my posts?

"an is supposed to be a democracy so whats your excuse for ol george being in power for so long, congratz on UK. for getting rid of tony"

Personally coming from england I couldn't give you an "excuse" for why ol George Bush has been in power so long why dont you ask an american there are plenty posting on this thread, as for Tony Blair, good F* riddance to bad filth where stuck with his second in command now Gordan Brown, will he be any better? only time will tell I suppose.

Your post comes across as a rant at the UK and the US, this threads dealing with Mugabe, so start a "lets bash the US and UK" thread if thats what floats your boat.

Originally posted by deadline527
What an excellent two posts Demandred! Star for you!

I agree with the point that once one is removed, another pops up. Sadly, I think Zimbabwe was much more stable, economic, and appealing while under apartheid rule.

So is most countries where those who disagree to any length with the rulers are disappeared. As for 'economic' ( not sure what you mean but i will presume 'wealthy' that is certainly the truth for the white owners as well as for those who would work with the occupiers instead of against the; it's been that for for thousands of years and i don't see why that is a indication of the inability of the former owners who did in fact make a living in the absence of the Europeans.

Now that they have stolen land from the farmers who supplied their food, they have essentially cut off the hand that feeds them.

The problem is not that white owners lost land, it was stolen from the natives to start with, but that the land were occupied by ' war veterans' who had about as much skill at modern industrial agriculture as they had access the the large volumes of capital or equipment required. It was not that ONLY white people can manage modern industrial farming but that such a system were replaced with people who were completely unable to do so. The "they' that you speak off wanted the land back so THEY could farm but since 'they' were not largely war veterans and 'military' men they gained not access and remained in their city slums trying to get by.

Personally i feel Mugabe didn't want any of it to happen but simply lost control of the military class that has kept him in power all these years. No one wants to rule such a complete and destabilized mess and i am confident it's exactly what Mugabe has been trying to prevent all these years by protecting the land ownership rights of those self same white farmers who eventually ALL ( beside for 1-3; feel free to check) escaped with not only their lives but no serious injuries.

It is sad to see a country with people so ignorant to the world around them.

It's sad to see that you think the entire country of Zimbabwe took part in occupying those farms when it was in fact done by a very small minority who apparently had the right type of support in some government circles. What is a far sadder to see , for instance, is how some modern industrial nations allow one person to steal two elections in a row.

Instead of helping the farmers raise more crops for their country, they destroyed, looted, and pillaged the land so it is no longer usable by anyone, experienced or not.

The farm workers on those various countries have been helping their European farm owners to be exceedingly productive for many decades on end and the fact that outsiders with no experience of farming came and attacked said farm workers for doing so comparatively well speaks volumes about the divisions that are imposed on a society when foreigners intervenes and sets groups against each other. One of the two or three white farmers that were killed were in fact trying to defend his workers( and a far larger number of farm workers were killed or seriously injured ) and died in the process. There are at least as many or more instances where the farm workers were protecting the white farmers so it's just ignorant to condemn a entire society that has ,and still ism facing such terrible economic conditions.

I hate seeing people suffer, but in my opinion the country did it to themselves..

Zimbabwe didn't do it to themselves as they were OCCUPIED by foreigners who had more guns and far meaner attitudes than they had. Did the French deserve what they got for managing to lose the war against Nazi Germany? What about Denmark and Holland? Since when are the people of one country so united that they all deserve the common fates that sometimes falls on them? When did Zimbabweans vote to chase all the white farmers off the land in a couple of months? Didn't they ASK for land of white the Zimbabwean government still had plenty it could have distributed to the people?

Now, I do understand that there is a percentage of people who did not partake in the destruction of their country, but I think they should leave when possible as refugees and let the rest of them kill each other off.

So you think the majority of any country willingly partakes in it's destruction? Isn't it a fact that it's always a minority that gains sufficient power to involve the rest in wars and famines? Where are the historic examples of societies choosing to destroy themselves or knowingly making decisions that they are well educated enough to understand might result in such ? How often are the citizens of any country allowed to vote about the possibility of invading other nations? Do you realise that we don't get a say because they know exactly what we will say and would rather not hear us going on about peace and cooperation?

It is so hard to have sympathy for such ignorance.. especially when they are the ones that deserve it the most.

If it's hard to have sympathy it's either due to the fact that you are terribly misinformed and or ignorant ( as seems to be the case here) or because you are not very sympathetic to start with.

Stellar

Originally posted by Infidel 101
Personally I have no problem with China propping up a variety of failed states as long as they agree that they are paying and not us.

Since that's the international norm for countries with economic ambitions it's hardly surprising but since the US is paying the bill trough it's huge trade deficit i suppose we can once agree on who to blame?

Africa maybe rich in minerals, but it is a basket case politically and nothing good will come from involving ourselves in their politics.

Africa is in fact so rich, to say nothing of all the unexploited resources, that ALL the imperial powers intervened and tried to grab what they could resulting in massive upheavals, genocides and long term interventions that are still resulting in what seems on the face of it quite insane politics. When it comes to taking a closer look you will however find that the hidden hand is still getting it's fill and that the interventions are massively well rewarded even if the majority of Africans suffer for it.

An Anglo Alliance should offer the nations who give a monkey’s in Africa a trading pact and cut out the EU and their CAP. All the rest can be sorted by the NGO’s. Let them feed us in part as return for our money on fair terms.

Why bother with such a arrangement when the current one is Making western corporations and banks so rich already? Why would the world bank and IMF let go of the debt that is forcing African countries to rip up food crops by the thousand of hectares to plant cotton, tobacco and all the other cash crops that they are forced to sell to gain a meager income of dollar with which to pay the 'debt' former dictators ( installed by that west) ran off with? It's a good racket and while European leaders will lament this terrible situation they will likely keep on getting the nice kickbacks the international bankers and corporations will give them to keep policies as they are.

The European people obviously doesn't have much of a clue but as with Americans they can mostly be convinced that Africans are just bloody stupid/inferior and have for some reason decided to plant cotton instead of food despite their empty stomachs. Such is the result of the misinformation that can be propagated by monopolies on news dissemination.

Make them rich and forget the bloody EU, its fascist anyway.

The European leaders certainly have that in mind but the people don't like it and are in fact doing what they can to prevent as they become aware of just what is in the works.

Has for Zimbabwe, Bob’s just a figure head now and the power lies with the military, the MDC is peeing up a rope if it thinks its going to win. The best we can do is highlighting the failures and wish them well.

The power has always been with the 'war veterans' ( " Ah, the generals, as numerous as they are useless. : And that's me paraphrasing a two and half thousand year old quote/saying) and i think Bob may very well have been keeping the Zimbabwe 'show' on the road longer than most dictators of his type would have.

But don’t forget, if you disagreed with Saddam swinging in a new and complicated Iraq then you have no right to ask for Mugabe to suffer the same.

But their AFRICANS! ( i can hear people thinking) ( ) Thing is Iraq is now in a worse situation than it was in the Eighties during which it may have lost up to a million men dead or injured enough to become a burden of one or another on the 'state' . During all that time SH never stopped expanding Iraqi's infrastructure and while times were not great economic conditions were still slowly improving for those that lived to experience them. What the US has done to Iraq in now nearly twenty years of war, bombardment and sanctions is many many times worse and Iraq may never recover the hundreds of thousands of highly educated Iraqi's that have now fled to foreign countries. What has been done will not be undone in the next half century and millions more Iraqi's will die as result of a destroyed health care system as well as USAF bombs and the strikes of Iraqi resistance on those Iraqi's who feel compelled to work for whoever will put food in their children's stomachs.

We can’t fight regardless because we don’t have the strength. So we pick our fights, or fight none. Take your pick.

Sure we can fight and despite the fact that i am against centralized power i could have stomached a international force such as NATO that were in fact in the business of aiding national liberation movements, invading and liberating nations from dictators they never chose and then rebuilding those societies while allow their people to choose their leaders. We have a few examples of that but they are few and far between when one does not count coincidental liberation that then leads to exploitative economic practices.

Stellar

I must say that the only intelligent comments relating to Africa has come from someone who lives here. Well done Stellar!

I really hate it when those from Europe and the States PRESUME they know what's going on in Africa and what's best for us but most of them are incredibly ignorant, which was borne out by some ridiculous posts in this thread.

Yes, Africa is in trouble. But what did the West think would happen? Our culture was torn from us and Western "civilization" foisted upon us. We did just fine living in tribes and governing ourselves until the white man came and decided that the poor ignorant natives needed to be taken care of as they were unable to care for themselves. I'm not saying that tribal government is the way to go, I'm just saying that our way of governing was taken from us and we were not taught any other way because the Master didn't think we had enough brains to be able to take care of ourselves. We were looked upon as simpletons and "backward" peoples. So, we were taught that we needed to be taken care of and THAT is why the people of Zimbabwe and the other African nations mentioned allow the dictators to dictate to them - its all they've ever known and it is what they have been taught is the only way.
If you never teach a child to wipe its own backside, it will keep looking for someone to do it for him!
Come live here for a while and you will see that African people in general and the most caring, hospitable and humorous people you will ever have the pleasure of meeting.
I just wish that the rest of the world would keep their noses out of our business.
For the record, I am pigmentally challenged (how's that for being PC!).

Stellar your ignorance is really making my clocks turn backwards in anger

If you truely belieive we are ignorant then lay all the fact on the line...

DO NOT JUST insult people with what they do not know... IN CASE YOU FORGOT you live in Africa... the information you have is by sight...we live in the U.S. where the inofmraiton is suppressed and disguised if not hidden from public view

If you would rather RANT about such things then keep on doing so. Instead my belief is that you should lay the whole story on the line and let us know whats really going on... because I assure you... we will never see whats going on in africa on American TV. Our way of living is so corrupt that we do not see these things going on. It would be greatly appercieated if you were to enlighten us.

I for one would appreciate it.

That goes for you too... IgnorantlyLovingSoul

[edit on 18-6-2008 by rjmelter]

Originally posted by rjmelter
Stellar your ignorance is really making my clocks turn backwards in anger

If you truely belieive we are ignorant then lay all the fact on the line...

DO NOT JUST insult people with what they do not know... IN CASE YOU FORGOT you live in Africa... the information you have is by sight...we live in the U.S. where the inofmraiton is suppressed and disguised if not hidden from public view

If you would rather RANT about such things then keep on doing so. Instead my belief is that you should lay the whole story on the line and let us know whats really going on... because I assure you... we will never see whats going on in africa on American TV. Our way of living is so corrupt that we do not see these things going on. It would be greatly appercieated if you were to enlighten us.

I for one would appreciate it.

That goes for you too... IgnorantlyLovingSoul

[edit on 18-6-2008 by rjmelter]

WOW! Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed!
The fact that you are not shown the truth on your American TV should not preclude you from keeping yourself informed on a subject you wish to post a comment about. How about doing some research? I do not believe ANYTHING I see on TV. If I see something that catches my attention, I hop onto the internet and research the topic further. 'Nuff said.

reply to post by LovingSoul


Im glad that you would rather keep on debating on the status of anothers Personal Self. The topic of debate here is not Which side of the bed I woke up on. Its when I make a statement about africa and True Africans that live there have something to say, they would rather rant about why they are better then Americans... and then you ask yourself WHY doesn't America send in a special ops unit and snipe certain key leaders out? WHY is because of ignorance.

I was resarching something the other day and it was saying that America doesn't just invade or attack a country ... they are invited by large organizations within that country opposed to such dictators. Yeah you bet we were invited to both Afganistan and Iraq... BOTH countries reportedly asked the U.S. to intervein several times then the Trade Centers happened... nuff said? I think not.

What I WATCH on TV is up for debate on this because I dont watch much tv at all... maybe 4 hours a week. All news. THE REST I RESEARCH ON THE NET! Thanks for mis-judging me (as if it was your right). What I wanted to know was an AFRICANS Oppinion... but quite frankly I could care less now (about your oppinion). I have a friend here in America who was kicked out of zimbabwe because of whats going on in that country. Ill just stick to one persons perspective on Zim (altho many are needed to get a true perspective). Who cares about South Africa right?

That said I do care what happens in those countries. I care about all peoples, Black, Brown, Bronze, Tan, Pink, Red, Yellow, White, blue and otherwise... We all deserve a chance in life and the choice to choose a simple or complex way of life. It is our Human Right. HOWEVER, I will have to do my own research and get more false articles on the net.... how nice it would be to get the straight simple truth, not questions needing asked. Maybe that will explain the simple nature of asking. Yes I did come off rude, but how can a loving soul just accuse, hate, be angered, and not want to help others learn, theyd rather attack? I think not. I think you need to recreate another account with a better name. Don't Raise and support a flag you know nothing about.

reply to post by fred3110


Listen, my friend, Mugabe is not going to give up his presidency, period, with or without a fight!!

Originally posted by rjmelter
Stellar your ignorance is really making my clocks turn backwards in anger

We are ALL ignorant with some just more so than others; i apologise for questioning what you seem to consider the truth.

If you truely belieive we are ignorant then lay all the fact on the line...

Well as much as 40% of Americans believe that when Genesis and Science collides it's better to believe the bible? How's that for ignorant arrogance?

DO NOT JUST insult people with what they do not know... IN CASE YOU FORGOT you live in Africa...

Yes, and the vast majority of Europeans who live in this country seems to be just about as prejudiced and ignorant as those who watch the news you do. Having bad sources of information can most certainly serve as a excuse for ignorance but it does nothing for the credibility of those who are so completely deceived.

the information you have is by sight...we live in the U.S. where the inofmraiton is suppressed and disguised if not hidden from public view

Proximity doesn't cure ignorance all the time or even most of the time. It MAY help, provided a sufficiently open mind, but there is no reason you can not be as well informed about my country as i am about yours. Maybe that's too much to ask given that EVERYONE who can studies the record of such a prominent power in the world, as that power keeps intervening in every one's affair, but wouldn't it help to simply shut up if you know you havn't done any independent study of a continent?

If you would rather RANT about such things then keep on doing so.

I do my ranting in between and i don't believe that it's very hard to discern either my intent or the 'new' information i present.

Instead my belief is that you should lay the whole story on the line and let us know whats really going on... because I assure you... we will never see whats going on in africa on American TV.

Did you at all ready what i typed? Do you want me to source what i say? What?

Our way of living is so corrupt that we do not see these things going on.

Oh people see what's going on, unless their blind&deaf, but since their reference framework is completely skewed ( and that's due to a deliberate effort) they come to all the wrong conclusions and and as time goes by get angrier and angrier as the confusing conclusions just don't correspond to observation In my opinion that is why Americans are so deeply angry despite their relatively high standard of living; they realise that something is going terribly wrong but just can't seem to put their finger on the specifics or grasp the scale of the deception. In that they are most certainly not alone in the world but frankly i don't think there is another country where people are so wealthy and so confused.

It would be greatly appercieated if you were to enlighten us.

Only deeply arrogant people seek to enlighten others. I am simply here to share my opinions, generally test my views and HOPEFULLY share some information that strikes the right nerves. The fact that i spend such a large volume of my time here getting involved in long drawn out arguments with people who couldn't be bothered with objectivity, or what i consider common sense, is something i admit to my shame.

I for one would appreciate it.

That goes for you too... IgnorantlyLovingSoul

Please go over my posts on this thread again and if you have questions please make them specific so that i know where your not following my intent or what i can to do better share my ideas.

Stellar

[edit on 19-6-2008 by StellarX]

reply to post by StellarX


Would you like me to send you a picture of me so you can draw evil faces too?

Im sorry that you hate the world for not understanding about Africa, but you spitting on everyone that even cares to think, even possibly getting involved is not the best approach.. Sorry... but its not. Have a NICE day.

Hey I got a didgeridoo too! Oh wait thats Austrailia... Man Im ignorant!

Originally posted by rjmelter
Would you like me to send you a picture of me so you can draw evil faces too?

No but what i would appreciate is if went back to school and learned about the language your typing in. If you can construe the last post as a 'attack' on you specifically you truly are more paranoid than is useful.

Im sorry that you hate the world for not understanding about Africa,
but you spitting on everyone that even cares to think, even possibly getting involved is not the best approach.. Sorry... but its not. Have a NICE day.

Why would i hate the world? Where have i suggested that i do? Do you have some kind of reading comprehension problem? How am i supposed to have a s nice a day as planned when i run into people who claim that they are interested in knowledge but can't seem to process it?

Hey I got a didgeridoo too! Oh wait thats Austrailia...

Man Im ignorant!

Since you haven't said much here that i can in fact judge against the knowledge i have i doubt your nearly as ignorant as you are spiteful and childish.

Stellar

Morgan is pulling out of the election because Crazy Bob is a monster figurehead of a nasty ineffectual regime that stills plays the colonial card many, many years after British Imperialism died a death. The guy is a monster, I know it, you know it, and in truth the whole world knows it. But his country, once the bread basket of Africa is now too much trouble for the West to be bothered with.

The AU should have been there in force to ensure fair elections, but they aren’t. Therefore why should our squaddies die doing something Africa won’t do?

We gave them democracy and western values, unlike India they elected to go back to strongmen. Tough; I don’t want to see a single British soldier killed because Mad Bob threw away everything through racism and greed. Private Smith J is worth one hundred times more than Mugabe.

Originally posted by infinite
There is nothing we can do, without the African Union playing the race and colonial card.

If the African Union cared much for the people that elected them the African Union wouldn't be in such a jam and would insists that the western world pay reparations for all the resources it has spirited away over the last few centuries. Since that is unlikely to happen these leaders may at least support the claims of their citizens against international corporations but would it surprise you to hear that they do not even do that and instead do their best to protect the very same corporate entities that are contributing to the slow impoverishment of the majority of Africans?

When we tried to prevent Mugabe attending a African-European summit and then rightly boycotted it, but many African leaders said the British were being "white imperialist" again

The British ARE imperialist and they haven't changed their colors as much as their actions have been moderated by their lack of military means which they have outsourced to the USA in the finest tradition of 'globalization'.

Africa is incapable of governing itself due to corruption, tribalism and poor government.

And what do you expect when the most corrupt and violent governments where sponsored into power or supported in such ways that they may retain it despite the best effort of their citizens?

South Africa is far from democratic too, due to the political power of the ANC it should be classified as a one party state. No one can oppose the ANC.

The ANC stills retains their struggle credentials and for lack of options the majority will keep voting for the party that is making the most promises. Why should there logically be more than one party in countries where the majority would vote for a party that essentially fought and won a liberation struggle and promised to look after them? Who are they supposed to vote for other than the party who promises jobs and food? In countries where people are doing better or where all parties seems equally unresponsive votes might be more equally distributed but since the ANC is in fact delivering on at least some of their promises with no alternatives in sight people will either stop voting ( realising that it's a waste of time at the moment ) or keep voting for the only party that seems in any way responsive and representative of their historical aspirations.

Zambia is another nation with poor human rights and lack of free press. And lets not even start with the Democratic Republic of Congo (note: any nation with democratic in the name is far from it).

Sure they have a poor human rights record but what the hell is the difference when so many people in Africa understands the experience of starvation so well? Do you really think having your 'rights' abused is your main concern when your suffering the starvation that will take the life you require to make said rights work for you? Do you think that is the main consideration? When it comes to the DRC it's hard to have a democracy when large tracts of your country are being occupied by soldiers from neighbouring countries, hostile factions from your own, and plenty of foreigners making a killing ( literally ) off the profits to be made from arming all sides while buying the resources these various factions are selling on the cheap to fund their ever lasting thirst for more weaponry and ammunition to gain access to more resources; there are few things that are more profitable, to those who are rich to start with, than war....

Only way to sort out Africa is to use financial aid as a weapon against certain countries.

In fact that is how they are exploiting Africa and as you say it would also be the best weapon to use to build Africa into a continent with hundreds of millions of clients for skilled European workers. The problem is not that it's a bad thing for money to get thrown around but that it's being used as a weapon to destroy entire nations when they fail to be wealthy enough to prevent speculative attacks against their currencies and commodity markets.

Good governments will get support and undemocratic nations face sanctions.

That's nonsense and if you actually believe that governments are supported or defended depending on how democratic they are you are either very ignorant or deeply misinformed. Maybe you want to tell me about some of those undemocratic countries that were brought to fall because of it?

The Chinese are turning corrupt nations, like Zimbabwe, into satitilite states and we need to start doing the same to those who are lite-democracies.

The Chinese are very probably doing the same as most resource countries do but since they are not well enough armed to actually affect changes against a trend they are just exploiting the corruption that Europeans powers have for so long fostered and created in Africa, South-America, South East Asia and now Eastern Europe. The US and it's European allies have never been in the business of sponsoring democracy in the name of democracy and when the people could not be bought or coerced into some form of support of the foreign selected representatives their leaders were overthrown, assassinated or otherwise marginalized for the practice of doing at least some of the things their people asked them to do.

It is the only way. The United Nations and the African Union have failed them.

The United Nations may or may not actually do some good if it were independent and truly the tool of the world's people but since it isn't it's failure and crimes are understandable. As for the African Union they support capitalism, privatization and the same general free market reforms that have devastated the working classes of all countries which have been forced to implement them; whoever the African Union is working for it's most certainly not for average Africans.

If not, Africa is going to become a major problem with more failed states resulting in the next decade or so.

Things in Africa is going to get far worse before Africans and the citizens of other nations manage to overthrow their dictators/foreign agents or at least reverse many of the current trends in world affairs. A 'failed state' is a petty capitalists dream and a whole host of International corporations are getting fabulously rich of the 'failures' that is Iraq and Afghanistan to say nothing of how the worlds rich are benefiting off the struggles of the DRC, Angola, Nigeria, Indonesia and resources rich countries in similar situations.

Originally posted by infinite
Typical Westerner who thinks world governments are all the same

Sure their not the same but how noteworthy are the differences and what was the intent of said governments as compared to what their citizens wanted? The question is why ALL people the world over wants the same things from their governments and why the vast majority of governments are not failing to provide much of what they promised but also overwhelming indulging in doing the exact opposite of what they at first claimed they would?

[qoute] pay attention to African politics you'll understand tribalism is a very dangerous thing. Nothing like you see in the West.

In MANY countries you still have strong tribal overtones ( ME, many African countries as well as India for example) but is that so different than the class struggles of more modernized western countries? Isn't class stratification what tribalism eventually evolves into and wasn't Europe a tribal hell hole until relatively recently when the tribal leaders crowned themselves and became the kings that still enjoys influence so much influence in European affairs and up until recently still held very public power?

The recent violence in Kenya, over the election, was linked to different tribes. Please do not be blind and compare everything to the United States

The recent violence in Kenya had everything to do with elections being stolen and some criminal employing the opportunity to settle scores while there were the normal civil unrest associated with election fraud.

Some political parties in Africa are rooted in their tribal culture, which results in civil conflicts and prevents the ability to form strong governments.

And strong central governments are the solution the tribal hostilities? Isn't strong handed government normally the result of certain minorities ( The Bush dynasty anyone?) gaining more power than they ever should have? Sure Africa have many political parties that seem to break according to tribal divisions but is that honestly the biggest problem Africans faces given who normally supports and or sponsors into power those Africans who are doing so much damage to this continent? Hell if it wasn't for Reagan the old white regime might have been forced into a more settlement by the mid 80's instead of the mid 90's....

Continued ( sadly)

Some political parties in Africa are rooted in their tribal culture, which results in civil conflicts and prevents the ability to form strong governments.

And strong central governments are the solution the tribal hostilities? Isn't strong handed government normally the result of certain minorities ( The Bush dynasty anyone?) gaining more power than they ever should have? Sure Africa have many political parties that seem to break according to tribal divisions but is that honestly the biggest problem Africans faces given who normally supports and or sponsors into power those Africans who are doing so much damage to this continent? Hell if it wasn't for Reagan the old white regime might have been forced into a more settlement by the mid 80's instead of the mid 90's....

Power sharing is sometimes needed to prevent a civil war (i.e Kenya again).

Like Bush and Kerry/Al Gore decided to share power when neither achieved a very obvious or clear victory in the elections itself? Right... As long as stupidly arrogant foreigners wish to lecture Africans on 'power sharing' ( says the imperialist who at various stages tried to take over the entire world ) you can be sure they will be shouted or laughed out of the room.

We do not see these problems in the West, all are based around politics not a certain type of culture. Your President would not just govern for Texas, but all States in America.

Bah! Such self indulgent arrogance just drives me to tears. How am i supposed to aid in the education of someone who already believes himself to know everything?

This does not occur in Africa, their president will govern for his tribe and supporters.

Nonsense. With limited resources it always make sense to reward the loyalty of your primary supporters who also happens to be part of your region and or tribe. Since resources are so very limited in many African countries the abuse and favoritism is just more obvious than elsewhere but for those who are not so easily deceived as you seem to be it's obvious that little Bush is making his friends and family ( or tribe if you will) fabulously rich by tax breaks, invasion and generally handing them money from the public treasury. Party politics is ALL about rewarding loyalty ( there is not single thing more important to build a strong lasting movement) and it's senseless to argue that this phenomenon is reserved to a few tribes in Africa.

Notice in Zimbabwe all Zanu-PF supporters get food, houses et al and the opposition get nothing from the state.

In fact the majority of Zanu-PF supporters are desperately poor like everyone else in the country and are still voting for the Zanu-PF because changing loyalty now wont put them first in line when it comes to the MDC rewarding it's oldest supporters or gain favor with the Zanu-PF representatives who will be quick to note their dissidence. All these phenomenon exists in even the most 'westernized' of countries but as the proverbial 'pie' of wealth grows so it becomes easier to not only use the public treasury to reward your own voters ( by implementing the policies they asked for) but to attempt to gain favor with the other voters by throwing services and tax breaks their way.

In future, before jumping down my throat please learn about the effects of tribalism and understand it is completely different from the US political system.

In the future please don't contribute unless you have something accurate to introduce.

Stellar