Schrödinger's Cat

Originally posted by UK Wizard


Without opening the box and presuming we can't see inside the box with any other means how are we to determine whether the cat is alive or dead before the opening of the box at the allotted hour?

For me this puzzle is more about Time. The lesson i get out of this puzzle is that, sometimes you just have to wait for time to give you the answers to your questions. And that some things are only observable within specific times, or at specific times. I hope that makes sense...umm at this time, hehe. Is this the same with quantum physics?

Originally posted by boredguy
its like that ol saying

if a tree falls in the forest and noone is around does it make a sound?

I never understood why this even is a question, there is air in the forest and as the tree hits an object like ground it transfers the vibration through the air therefore making a sound. So.... why is this asked?

reply to post by the way


It is believed that light acts as both a wave and a particle because it exists in different dimensions. Scientists have already determined that we live in 4 dimensions, with time being the 4th. There is speculation that there are at least 26 dimensions. When taken from that perspective, it makes "sense" (insofar as quantum physics can make sense) that light behaves the way it does. It is only from the observation as to how we determine that light is a particle or a wave, in that the observation was set up to detect it as such. Deep down, it is believed that, at the quantum level, reality (that is, traditional physics) ceases to exist and that no rules that we can understand apply at that level. This is coming from an dumb Christian who believes wholeheartedly in the inerrant Word of the Bible.

All we know comes from our senses, so without them we know nothing aka wether the cat is dead or alive, because we can't see it.
And @ the OP : do you by any chance watch the big bang theory?

The book "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson (screamingly funny author, and a super-informative book) does a super job of explaining the quantum realm, sorta like this:

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle--says that electrons are particles, but can be described in terms of waves. Once can know that path/speed that an electron takes, or we can know where it is at a particular point in time, but we can't know both.

Even more funky? Attempts to measure path/speed will disturb the location, and vice versa.

So, the electron should be thought of as being "at once everywhere and nowhere" (quoting Dennis Overbye).

Another explanation I've heard regarding explaining the outright oddness of quantum physics (in a totally over-simplified way!) is that it may very well be that a particle is "there" only when it's being observed.

I'm no physicist and have only the faintest grasp of quantum theory, but I find the subject absolutely fascinating and mind-blowing...groovy!

I should point out that my fascination with the "cat in the box" theory has resulted in the following: my red-point ragdoll kitty cat's official name is "Erwin Schrodinger"..."Ernie" for short.

Great thread!
Ezzi

reply to post by argentus


I'd be very interested to learn about some home style experiments we can do to demonstrate quantum theory, thanks!

The cat would meow at the end of the hour signifing it is alive.

Put Schrödinger and a cell phone in the box with instructions to phone out at a certain hour.

Save a cat! Put Schrödinger in the box.

reply to post by Mainer


Most matter tends to exist in quantum states in spacetime. We are all made of atoms most likely. ergo we are made of "quantum space". You are in control of matter that can exist in multiple states simultaneously.

Ok people do not say shake the box anymore you arent making any sense. The reason why is because the box and the cat both do not exist they are a metaphor for the inner workings of quantum physics, and i do not think you can shake that.

So it isnt about the cat or the box, its about the unknowing truth we dont know whether the cat is alive or dead so the paradox is that its both until we observe its state for our selves. Now just replace the words cat and box with some physics terms and there is your theory.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by caballero]

Originally posted by shuck
It seems along the lines of

" If a tree falls in a forrest...and there is no one there to hear it...does it make a sound??"




A very old conundrum....lol

Dang it Shuck..ya beat me to it! How about the one that states that the sky shouldn't be dark because of all the stars giving off light at the same time? Anyone remember what that is called and why? I don't think that I ever quite understood the explanation of it.

To use it broadly, think of someone you haven't seen in a long time. Where are they now? You have no way of finding out so does that mean that they could be in numerous different places right now?

Or to remove the conscious factor, you don't know where your keys are. Before you get up to look for them, is it possible that they are both in the hall by the telephone AND still in the car door?

Originally posted by Yossarian
Or to remove the conscious factor, you don't know where your keys are. Before you get up to look for them, is it possible that they are both in the hall by the telephone AND still in the car door?

If the infinite reality theory that "everything that can happen, does happen" is even remotely "true" then your keys are all over the place, man.

Originally posted by Cadbury

Originally posted by Yossarian
Or to remove the conscious factor, you don't know where your keys are. Before you get up to look for them, is it possible that they are both in the hall by the telephone AND still in the car door?

If the infinite reality theory that "everything that can happen, does happen" is even remotely "true" then your keys are all over the place, man.

Just not in my line of vision. Until they are.

Is that why the keys are always in the last place I look?

Originally posted by Yossarian

Just not in my line of vision. Until they are.

Is that why the keys are always in the last place I look?

Hah! That was good. But is it not that they are in the last place you look because you stop looking when you find them? Or is that what you meant?

I laugh out loud.

Perhaps this new forum is actually dangerous?

Originally posted by Cadbury

Hah! That was good. But is it not that they are in the last place you look because you stop looking when you find them? Or is that what you meant?

I laugh out loud.

Perhaps this new forum is actually dangerous?

I meant both, was trying to be amusing. Don't want to drag this thread off-topic but it might be on-topic when I'm not looking at it.

Originally posted by Yossarian
I meant both, was trying to be amusing. Don't want to drag this thread off-topic but it might be on-topic when I'm not looking at it.

It was amusing. I was laughing with you not at you.

And don't worry; this topic will always be on topic, especially when we're not looking at it.

reply to post by Yossarian


I usually find my keys, then look in one more place so that stupid saying has no relevance, solved!!

Anyway, back on topic, I think it's trying to say that we can never KNOW the outcome until it has happened and then it is too late, all outcomes are posibilities but only one will manifest itself. So next time you tell someone something is impossible, SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!!

EMM


[edit on 14-6-2008 by ElectroMagnetic Multivers]

Originally posted by ElectroMagnetic Multivers


I usually find my keys, then look in one more place so that stupid saying has no relevance, solved!!

EMM

You do have a point. I'll do this with a lighter. I'll look for my lighter, find it, then keep on looking for it, even though I've got it in my hand. Sometimes it can take up to a full hour for me to notice.

Originally posted by Taj Mikel
reply to post by argentus

 

I'd be very interested to learn about some home style experiments we can do to demonstrate quantum theory, thanks!

Here is one I heard about: Balance a nickel on a table top, using one hand. Then, with the other hand, AND with your eyes closed, try to pick up the coin without knocking it over. It is virtually impossible.

This illustrates that you cannot accomplish something simple (like picking up a coin) without affecting it (like knocking it over). This is supposed to illustrate the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

#

Actually, this sounds kind of lame, once I see what I have written it down. I will do more investigation on home quantum theory experiments. Something as pervasive as quantum physics should be demonstrable without a lot of expensive scientific apparatus (I would think.)