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posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 07:53 PM
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After you graduate from high school, a student doctor must get a 4-year bachelor's degree while taking required pre-med courses. Then 4 years for an MD. And then 5-7 years for a general surgery residency, and I'm guessing around 6 years for the cardiothocratic surgery residency. Factor in the low resident pay, extremely long hours, and the oppressive medical school debt, and you'll see why we're short of cardothocratic and neuro surgeons even though they make a ton of money.


4 year bachelors
+ 4 years for MD = 8 years of school

you cannot factor in for general surgery residency, because you're being paid for that. And 6 years for cardiothocratic surgery residency you're being paid for too.

You said 2 decades of training. What profession doesnt go through 2 decades of training? Name one job that you can learn everything you need to know, after just a few years.




oh, and your math doesnt include taxes.
At 7.5 per hour, you could be looking at around 230 dollars per paycheck per week, after taxes for 40 hours per week. Depending on how you do your claims. Thats $920 dollars a month, 11,000 dollars a year. Take home. Ya know..the stuff you actually get to pay bills with


At this income, do you think that 72 dollars a month is feasible for ten years?



"I think food is a little more important, and shelter. I'm not going to tax people so that people can abuse health care for free. "

when i said social benefit, that is not refering to tax-payer paid-for healthcare. I said it should be a social benefit, meaning everyone can afford the care, not the health insurance that allows the care to be affordable.

30,000 dollars for a single operation is so unbelievably rediculous.
But there are only SOME twisted and corrupt physicians out there that would actually charge that.

I guess i can still take comfort in knowing that some doctors are still practicing medicine so they can help humanity

not so they can have a big expensive yacht at the expense of another human beings misery




posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
You said 2 decades of training. What profession doesnt go through 2 decades of training? Name one job that you can learn everything you need to know, after just a few years.

I couldn't reply for so long because of this. Every time I'd get to this statement the gross stupidity and huge straw man here made it too frustrating. You know what I mean about having to train to even get started. You can't work as an attending until you complete residency. Teachers aren't as highly trained, professors aren't even as highly trained. I'm not going to go too far into it because the only way could have said this is through gross stupidity, and I doubt you're that stupid, or to try and win an argument.



Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
4 year bachelors
+ 4 years for MD = 8 years of school

you cannot factor in for general surgery residency, because you're being paid for that. And 6 years for cardiothocratic surgery residency you're being paid for too.

Yeah, you actually can. We're talking about a supply of labor shortage, why we're short of cardiothocratic surgeons and why their labor costs so much per person. One, surgery residencies...suck. Long hours and low pay. Two, at that point, they aren't a real surgeon yet. It takes so long to produce them and the training is so difficult to produce that you end up having a demand for cardiothocratic surgeons that is higher than residencies can produce them. Additionally, the road to becoming this sort of surgeon is long and rocky; I already touched on how very unpleasant residencies are, especially surgery residencies. The only reason we have any cardiothocratic surgeons at all is because of the light at the end of the tunnel - the fact that once they complete their residencies and maybe fellowships, they will be making enough money to make the human capital investment worth it. Then they can finally pay off huge debts from college, medical school, and loans taken out during residency.

Really, put all of this together, and you have a massive labor shortage (we are extremely short of surgeons right now, which is part of the reason why some work 90 hours a week).


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
oh, and your math doesnt include taxes.
At 7.5 per hour, you could be looking at around 230 dollars per paycheck per week, after taxes for 40 hours per week. Depending on how you do your claims. Thats $920 dollars a month, 11,000 dollars a year. Take home. Ya know..the stuff you actually get to pay bills with


At this income, do you think that 72 dollars a month is feasible for ten years?

Yeah, I didn't include taxes because it was an estimation. Fair enough. Really, you can't expect anyone in any profession to work on minimum wage for 10 years unless there's something wrong with them, some kind of mental disorder, and if that's the case, this is the least of their worries. So making a long-term projection based on such low pay is really misleading; no one is going to be making such little money over the long term.
However, if the cost really is oppressive, hospitals are mandated to give out a portion of their care for free or for reduced cost. I can almost guarantee that if this person was that poor, they would give some kind of help. Additionally, there are some government channels you can go through.



Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
"I think food is a little more important, and shelter. I'm not going to tax people so that people can abuse health care for free. "

when i said social benefit, that is not refering to tax-payer paid-for healthcare. I said it should be a social benefit, meaning everyone can afford the care, not the health insurance that allows the care to be affordable.

The problem is making it affordable. There's a reason they charge so much money. The cost of labor is very oppressive and the cost of equipment is huge. Setting up a cardiothocratic unit in a hospital is no joke. I don't think most even have them as a result.


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
30,000 dollars for a single operation is so unbelievably rediculous.
But there are only SOME twisted and corrupt physicians out there that would actually charge that.

That's your opinion from your pedestal of ignorance. You have to look at why they charge so much money, and why they can. Prices are probably also a bit inflated due to our reliance on employer health care (due to long-standing tax breaks on these benefits. thanks, federal government! thanks, income tax!).


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
I guess i can still take comfort in knowing that some doctors are still practicing medicine so they can help humanity

not so they can have a big expensive yacht at the expense of another human beings misery

Honestly, with the amount of work and time needed, they'd probably make a whole lot more in finance, business, or law.



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by Johnmike
 


In finance, business, or law?

Finance, ill give you on the notion that you have to actually be good at your job to be successful as a financer, whereas all a doctor has to do to get lots of money is endure 8 years of school, and hang a fancy peice of paper on his or her wall.

Business? What such a vague statement. You need to be a little clearer on what you define as 'business'. If it means going into business for yourself...thats what doctors, esentially, do.

Lawyer? They are just as twisted and greedy as a doctor who charges 30k for a life saving operation.

Not all doctors are evil, i apologize if this post came off as saying that. I truely do not believe that

but any doctor who would charge a lower or middle-class human being 30k for a life-saving operation is a corrupt, vile, disgusting piece of human waste, and is the very cause of the healthcare issue in this country.

its not that people can't afford health INSURANCE

its that people cant afford health CARE

if the care was affordable
there'd be no reason for "insurance" to help pay for it.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
... whereas all a doctor has to do to get lots of money is endure 8 years of school, and hang a fancy peice of paper on his or her wall.

Not at all. You need to spend at least three years as a resident before you can be licensed to practice anything at all. Until then you're still making no money at the bottom of the totem pole.

Let alone specialized surgeons who won't be able to do anything for another decade. But there's a big difference in pay between those specialized surgeons and, say, a family practice doctor, mainly due to the time and skill required.



Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
its not that people can't afford health INSURANCE

its that people cant afford health CARE

if the care was affordable
there'd be no reason for "insurance" to help pay for it.

Well, yes and no. I completely agree with you for the standard doctor visit. Right now those prices are inflated due to our reliance on employer benefits to pay. It's different for the rare, expensive surgery though. See, insurance is supposed to be a shared risk system, I won't bore you with details you already know. Normally, that would work fine - your chance of needing expensive surgery is low, so you pay a fee and share the risk with a bunch of others. But people use it for the occasional $100 doctor visit, which makes it a system of reliance on outside payment rather than shared risk.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Johnmike]



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by Johnmike
 


The point that i am trying to make is you cannot place non-human characteristics on a human being.

you're not talking aboutu a custom paint job on a car.

you're talking about saving a living, breathing, human being with feelings, a family, and an understanding of what is happening to him or her.

To charge 30,000 dollars to someone who doesnt have that is ridiculous

if doctors are so well-off
why can't it be that heart surgeries cost LESS than basic surgeries? It's "low risk" and doesnt happen as often, so why cant it be a gift instead of a burden?

People are faced with "pay 30k, or die"

and the ones who can "pay on the 30k" are foced to pay for it for the rest of their LIVES so a crummy surgeon can get gold plated rope ties for his new aircraft carrier.



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 11:46 PM
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You keep repeating yourself, amigo.



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 07:07 AM
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reply to post by Johnmike
 


Well, with all due respect, its because you keep avoiding the point of my discussion.

i *hate* sounding cliche, but "Life is priceless" is true. Now of course that can go both ways:

One person can say "well if its priceless, then 30k isnt jack"
But it doesnt work that way in this country

"You arent jack" unless you have 30k seems to be the philosophy.
I mean, whats the prick doctor going to tell the family of the deceased?

Sorry - we could have saved his life with the operation, but im just too damned greedy?



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 08:33 AM
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Hospitals are allowed to do that? I think that's against the law, let alone the Hippocratic Oath.



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 08:37 AM
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reply to post by Johnmike
 


are collection agencies ALLOWED to harrass people
are ISPs ALLOWED to spy on their users?
are government warantless wiretaps illegal?


You know the answer to all of those questions - but the end result is still the same ----- they do it anyway

And a doctors oath is followed, im gona guess, by the same % of peopl who take the oath on the stand in court.

again - im nto saying all doctors are evil and corrupt
but i will say that any hospital that will turn away a patient for inability to pay is
any hospital that charges ludicrous amounts of money to someoen who cant afford it - is



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 09:00 AM
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No, hospitals can't legally deny you care due to inability to pay. The doctor who did this would be fired, lose his ability to practice, be sued for a great deal of money, and had criminal charges files against him. I'll say it again - hospitals cannot and will not deny you urgent, life-saving care that you need. Many hospitals receive some sort of government funding to help with this mandate. Additionally, there are charity hospitals out there.

Your point is moot.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Johnmike]



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by Johnmike
 


OMG

I never said it was LEGAL for them to do it.
I said that they have DONE IT BEFORE.

now i want you to pay extra special attention to what im saying, because im tired of repeating myself due to your inability to read.


Dont use words like "moot" to kop-out of a conversation.

You're avoiding the over-all emphasis of this thread.

So allow me to S-P-E-L-L it out for you

Why is it okay for a doctor to charge $30,000 dollars to a patient to save their life, when that patient does not have 30 dollars in their checking account?

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
One person can say "well if its priceless, then 30k isnt jack"
But it doesnt work that way in this country

"You arent jack" unless you have 30k seems to be the philosophy.
I mean, whats the prick doctor going to tell the family of the deceased?


I understand your anger, but you seem to be a little misguided. Using your hypothetical amount of 30k...how much of that is actual doctor profit? You're not considering the expenses involved just to be a doctor. It's been mentioned several times in this thread already, but I'll rehash it.

First of all, most MDs leave med. school with several hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt. Then, while they're in their residency they make what I would call a low salary for somebody working 80-100 hours per week. According to this website, it's $44k - $54k a year for the first 6 years after med school. In the mean time, they're paying huge payments on their student loans and barely scraping by.

Second, they need essential items to have a practice. $100,000 or more for malpractice insurance, rent or mortgage on an office, equipment for the office, employees to run the office. Nowadays, there are stringent requirements on patient records so they either need a portion of the office to store medical charts or they need to pay a medical storage company to store the files (I work for a company that stores medical files for area doctors so I know firsthand this isn't cheap).

Third, the cost of the facilities to even peform an operation like what you're discussing is enormous.

You're main argument here seems to be that you can't put a price on human life. Well, I agree...but you also can't expect a doctor to go through over a decade of training to perform a risky surgery at a loss. I can't find evidence to support this, but I bet the doctor doesn't make much of that $30,000 in profit. Assuming that the average surgeon does one surgery every weekday (which is obviously a low estimate of 1 every 260 days) and knowing from research that the average surgeon makes $255,000 a year in profit, that comes out to less than $1,000 per job. I bet the actual number is more like 2,3,4, or even 5 surgeries per day if not more, so divide this profit accordingly.

What you seem to be suggesting is that these doctors should LOSE money doing their job. Now switch this to any other job. Should I be mad because the guy building my house charges $100,000 to do it? Maybe he should be doing it for $50k because you just can't put a price on basic needs. That loaf of bread that I pay $1.50 for should obviously only be .25 because it's a staple and I need to feed my family. What's that "prick" grocery store owner going to tell my family when I die of starvation?

I guess in summary I'll say that I agree that medical prices are out of control. However, you're misguided when you blame the doctors. They're just trying to make a living like everybody else...and it's a LONG, HARD road to get to the point where they are even making a living.



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by BlueTriangle
 


$300,000 - $500,000 a year Source

compare that to the 30k a year the poor schmub who needs the operation.

im not against someone earning profit

im again someone earning disgustingly gross profits off the suffering and/or demise of another human being.


They charge 30k a year because they can. Plain and simple. Heart surgery is NOT a new wonderous technology. Though its up for debate, many believe its possible that Daniel Williams performed the first sucessful instance of said surgery in 1893!!!

Granted, technology has changed a lot since then.

But lets evaluate it like we would any inanimate object for sale:
All things considered equal, lets pretend this is a heart transplant

Cost of the actual heart: Free. Organ Donation program
Cost to transport the heart: A sophisticated carrying device, a plastic baggy, ice, and a mode of transportation

The hospital doesnt have to pay the doctors per operation - as i understand it - they are paid a base salary.

Evaluation starts here
The median debt of medical school in 2005 was above $120,000. ( Source So, to include interest, and for arguments sake, lets DOUBLE THAT

240,000 in debt from medical school.
you land a job that pays 300k a year bare minnimum.

lets use the standard, 10 years, of repayment of student loans

that comes to $2000 a month
at 300k a year
a person would make 25k per month.

So after you pay your 2k student loan - you have 23,000 dollars left over. In one month.


Now - along comes a poor bloke who needs a new heart.
He makes 30k a year
you charge him 30,000 for the new heart operation (and its not a hypothetical number Source )


30k a year is 2500 a month
depending on the "generous nature" of the hospital, you'll be put on a payment plan. Again - for arguments sake, lets assume they say $100 a month, because its such a large amount of money.

It would take 25 years to pay off the debt. For one man. One surgery. Meanwhile, the doctor is off sipping pina coladas, sailing the 7 seas on his personal authentic replica of the titantic.



Though in most cases, they'd just take you to court and garnish your wages. Garnishment differs by state. In my home state of Illinois (one of the more generous states towards consumers in terms of garnishment) (source Here )

they'd be entitled to the lessor of
1. 15% of the disposable earnings; or

2. The amount of the disposable earnings that exceed 45 times the minimum hourly wage.


again- i say - Illinois is less compasionate for businesses on this matter, other states allow even more garnishment to occur. For a guy who's 30k a year, or 2500 a month, or $15 an hour, that comes out to be

$93.75 a week or $375 a month

OR

$7.50 per hour x 45 = $337.50. If you make $625 a week (2500 a month) that would make your garnished payments be $287.50 per week

625 - 337.50 = 287.50 a week or $1150 a month.



so his garnishment plan would be $93.75 a week.


Now you take into account the guy has a car payment, rent, grocieries, and most likely a family to feed, and he's SCREWED



[edit on 20-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 11:33 AM
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The prices for health are already being regulated by the insurance companies. They have their own prices that they will pay for every procedure and prescription as well as regular care. They create a network of places you can go to receive health care, and in order for a hospital or doctor to be part of the network, they have to agree to those prices.

For example: I had knee surgery not long ago. It was an ACL replacement which is very common, and I went to a specialist in the network for my insurance. I saw the doctor bill which was $9,000 for the surgery, as well as a list of other itemized things like anesthesia. I also saw that my insurance covered it 100%, but only paid $1,700 for the surgery. The bill stated that I owed nothing and that was that. So if you are uninsured, they will charge the full price, but if your covered the insurance company negotiates for a better price.

I think the solution to rising health care costs is exactly what Obama's UHC plan will do, which is mandatory health care coverage. If you already have coverage you can keep it, and those that are not insured that can afford it have to pay for it, but it should be cheaper than existing insurance. It will also cover those that can't afford it, but in the long run it is better to have them covered than not. That should help bring the cost of health care down for everyone.

[edit on 6/20/2008 by Hal9000]



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by Hal9000
 


Very True

and 1700 out of pocket is not a bad price for that type of surgery.

but i think its ridiculous to force health insurance upon someone to condone high medical costs..just my opinion though

i dont know why nobody would not WANT health insurance, but my theory is to fix health INSURANCE, you fix the cost of the procedure.

If your post is true across the board, then i suggest we fix it even further. If you paid 1k of a 9k bill, that means the insurance company paid the other 8k
that 8k was paid for by someone, and it wasnt the health insurance CEO



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
$300,000 - $500,000 a year


That's fine, we can use your figure. Mine was for a general surgeon. Now do the math and divide that out by the several hundred heart surgeries they perform per year and figure out just how much they're making per job. It's not that much considering.


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
im again someone earning disgustingly gross profits off the suffering and/or demise of another human being.


I think I've just shown above and in the post you quoted that the doctor isn't earning "disgustingly gross profits." They MIGHT be getting $1k per surgery and frankly I think that's a great deal.


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Cost of the actual heart: Free. Organ Donation program
Cost to transport the heart: A sophisticated carrying device, a plastic baggy, ice, and a mode of transportation


OK, I'll buy that. I'm sure it's not completely free, but let's say it is for this discussion.


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
240,000 in debt from medical school.
you land a job that pays 300k a year bare minnimum.
lets use the standard, 10 years, of repayment of student loans
that comes to $2000 a month
at 300k a year
a person would make 25k per month.
So after you pay your 2k student loan - you have 23,000 dollars left over. In one month.


No offense here...but I have to ask. Have you ever personally set up a household budget? You seem to have a very simplistic view of how income is spent unless you're purposely ignoring reality to try to prove your point.
In reality it's going to look more like this:
25,000 gross
-6,250 federal tax
-1000 state tax
-625 local tax
-4000 FICA (social sec. & medicare, x2 since the doctor is self employed)

After the government swoops in, it's down to around 12k a month. Now, we take care of the necessities. Mortgage (most financial advisors will tell you that 25% of your takehome is the mortage payment you can afford per month) 3,000, utilities we'll say $500 for a home that size which is probably low, food $500 (and that's skimping), pay down the student loan 2,000, pay off any other debt that was accumulated during college/medschool/residency $?? (we won't count this, but I bet it exists in most cases), retirement funding (recommended is 15% of gross pay...that's $45,000 a year in this case and should be higher since the length of career is shorter due to the late start)3,750, and finally we get play money. Do the math and you'll find just over 3k left over.

You also need to keep in mind that these payrates don't apply until the doctor is 32 years old at minimum. For the first 14 years of their adult life, while the rest of the population is working 40 hrs a week and building a family, they are going to school and/or spending 80-100 hrs. per week in the hospital. Seems like a lot of sacrifice to be wealthy late in life...probably why not many do it.


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
depending on the "generous nature" of the hospital, you'll be put on a payment plan. Again - for arguments sake, lets assume they say $100 a month, because its such a large amount of money.


I'd say that's a pretty good deal, I value my life at more than $100 a month. Most people in the country have their credit cards run up enough that they're paying more than $100 a month on them...and they bought big screen TVs and designer clothing with the money...not their life.


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Meanwhile, the doctor is off sipping pina coladas, sailing the 7 seas on his personal authentic replica of the titantic.


Not likely. Most work diligently for 20+ years saving so they can retire early and maintain their income level after retirement. I bet the percentage of doctors that are "saiing the 7 seas" as you state is somewhere in the low single digit area. Most are smart enough to save that money, retire early, and eventually leave a nice inheritance for their kids.



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by BlueTriangle
 


Yes, i know how to set up a budget
I didnt include taxes in there, because taxes can be a world of difference apart.

Is the doctor married
does he pay alimoney
does he pay child support
how many children does the doctor claim
does he write off anything in taxes

so to make things simple for arguments sake, i cut the "tax deductions" across the board. I even excluded subtracting taxes from the poor mans bracket to be fair, but you didnt even touch on the rest of my post.

To cotinue my thought

23k left over after paying his student loan

house
car
etc etc etc etc etc
you're telling me that the doctor needs a 5000 a month mortage?
you're telling me that the doctor needs 3 different cars, a swimming pool. a private golf course etc etc etc?

If you're telling me that he deserves them, they you are saying he is allowed to profit off of the misery and demise of others.


To further the point of not subtracting taxes, when you go to court because of your inability to pay what the hospital wants, they wont look at your income after bills
they look at your gross income
not take home

100 dollars a month for 25 years? Sorry but thats asking too much.


I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepios and Hygeia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

The Hippocratic Oath doesnt condone such behavior.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
and 1700 out of pocket is not a bad price for that type of surgery.

No, $1,700 is what the insurance company paid to the doctor for the $9,000 procedure. I paid nothing. That is my point, they negotiated a price much lower than for someone without insurance.



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by Hal9000
 


oh , wow, then you have very good insurance indeed


if i may ask (and sorry if its too personal) how much a month do you have to pay?
And if its employe based insurance, how much does your company pay on your behalf?



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Yes, i know how to set up a budget
I didnt include taxes in there, because taxes can be a world of difference apart.


LOL, OK. So you just completely left that out and assumed that the doctor in question had $25k a month to throw around. I guess that makes sense.



Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
To cotinue my thought

23k left over after paying his student loan

house
car
etc etc etc etc etc
you're telling me that the doctor needs a 5000 a month mortage?


I believe I said $3k a month, which would be 25% of takehome. That's about a $450,000 house at current interest rates which could be either a very nice house out in rural america or an average one elsewhere. Good luck getting a house in Boston for anywhere near that.


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
you're telling me that the doctor needs 3 different cars, a swimming pool. a private golf course etc etc etc?


Well heck, I didn't even alot cash for all of that. I'm not sure where you got that from, but it wasn't in my post. I guess now our hypothetical doctor is going into debt to fund his lifestyle or not funding retirement properly. This would be the norm in America today though, so I guess that makes sense. In your example, it would appear that we have a doctor making $400k a year and spending closer to $500k a year so that he can impress people.

On a similar note, there are a lot of people out there that make less money than I do that are country club members, have a pool in the back yard, and have more than 3 cars. They either worked hard for that money or are in debt up to their ears to finance it. How is that mine OR your business?


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
If you're telling me that he deserves them, they you are saying he is allowed to profit off of the misery and demise of others.


This again? I think we already proved earlier in the thread that there's no way the doctor is making more than $1k a surgery and it's likely half that or less.


Originally posted by Andrew E. WigginThe Hippocratic Oath doesnt condone such behavior.


I think you're reading a lot into that, my friend. Nowhere in the Hippocratic Oath does it say that a doctor cannot make a living and that seems to be your chief complaint. The only reason I can see for quoting that is that you're going to try to relate the word "injustice" to charging money for the service. I'm not buying that.

The whole basis of your argument appears to be that you think doctors should be making a poverty level wage after spending 14 years of their prime years working up to a respectable income level. Under your system...there would be no doctors.




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