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The Issue Of Religiously Inspired Topics on ATS and BTS

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posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 02:52 PM
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Thank you, ATS, for the reasonable sorting out of things. And thank you for addressing the problem, and realizing that it was a problem. Things will be better for it.




posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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Hmm... It interest me to see that some folks who identify themselves as Christians are upset about this move.

Personally this has been a long time coming.
The 'Conspiracy in Religion' forum was really the 'Theological debate station'.

While I appreciate the difficulty and fine line in discerning what makes a theological disagreement vs. a conspiracy - for the most part there were no true conspiracies discussed in the forum.


Again, as I mentioned, this is a fine line, depending on the perspective you took on the subject. However the way that topics were approached & discussed were pretty much words falling on deaf ears...on both sides.

So in a way this is good, drive more traffic to BTS and clear up the religious section for more civil discussion perhaps. - Although BTS may garner more traffic if one login could be used across boards.


For those of you who say your in the Christian camp and feel offended, this was not an attack on you by far. And again, its amazing how we perceive what is happening around us. From my perspective it seemed that it was Christian extremist who were ganging upon those who did not agree with them.

But I suppose when I look at it, if someone is convinced that they are 'right', then this automatically allows a door to be opened for feeling 'targeted'.
After all, everyone else is wrong and there is no way that they would truly consider another point of view, so naturally this is how they feel...which is cornered.

When ironically that which we feel is what we are doing to others... trying to corner them in with our own ideas and belief systems. After all "its for the greater good".
And we know what results have come through the centuries with this mentality.


So in the end, everything is fine...no one was singled out, per say.
The fact of the matter, as was pointed out, is that people tend to group together in any forum to take up for their belief system. Its human nature I suppose.


Peace

dAlen

[edit on 11-6-2008 by dAlen]



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 02:54 PM
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I'm personally very glad that the owners have payed attention to this problem and have taken action. There isn't really much more you can ask for. I also appreciate how they are intimate with the members and allow us to talk directly to them, and they actually take time out of their day to reply back to us.

They do a great job and the longer that I stay here the more that I realize this.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
I also appreciate how they are intimate with the members and allow us to talk directly to them, and they actually take time out of their day to reply back to us.



Yes, I agree there. One of the distinctions of ATS is that unlike so many other boards dissenting opinion is not met with an automatic ban. The site staff has always been great in that regard.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:05 PM
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Hello, SO. First of all, thank you for finally lifting my post ban. It was a very frustrating fiasco. I detest site drama with an intensity but was beyond frustrated when my questions as to why it all happened were not being answered. I have received staff chastisement in the past and every single time I responded to their discipline with maturity, respect, and penitence. However, the post ban incident I did feel was extremely unfair and unjustified, hence my protest.

Am I allowed to now ask exactly what it was all about or what cause was there to believe I was 'forum ganging' with other members? I quickly formed friendships here with many people from all walks of life and it left me slightly paranoid to associate with other Christians here now.

I have noticed several members who have frequently and vocally accused myself and my Christian friends of 'tag teaming' on threads and I found this odd as when I looked through their posting history I would often see certain members who would not log on for weeks at a time then suddenly they would all show up on the same day and immediately start posting on the same threads. Not to mention evidence was provided in the past of certain members admitting to wanting to troll Christian members off of ATS. Then threads like 'Creationists are Destroying ATS' and 'ATS: Atheist Thrashing Service' pretty much made me want to vomit.

My apologies for bringing so much drama to the site and it frustrates me because I feel like I am being a crybaby- a personality type I detest. This post is coming out all wrong and sounds horribly incoherent, I will admit. It is due to the fact I have so much to say on this issue that I really don't know where to begin. It seem the religious are being targeted and it bewilders me how the staff cannot see the constant baiting and antagonism we endure.

Again, my apologies for this post. I am sure it sounds like I am all over the place.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:14 PM
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reply to post by Springer
 




and yet you scream we are trying to run you off. That's just as ridiculous as it is insulting.


What is insulting is that in one posts the admins of this site (now retracted) INSULTED both Freemasons (which had and have absolutely NOTHING to do with this discussion, with this problem nor with the new forums created) AND Christians by BLAMING them for the problems.

It was right there.

Now, I agree it is a tedious job appeasing everyone, but outright insults and slights on character seem, to me, to be easily avoidable.

I think it will be marked as a freudian slip..

You obviously agree that there was a intentional or accidental slight on two prominent groups on ATS, else there would not have been a second U2U (which I am very glad to see) and the original post would not have been revised (again thank you SO).

Expecting nothing but the best from ATS, Rock.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:17 PM
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And now for a more focused and on topic reply.

The new forum sounds like it will be very interesting and a lot of fun. Congratulations to Skyfloating for his success at inspiring and rallying member support.

The CIR/OC forum updates. No problems here really in that regard. Some are seeing it as censorship but I would like to take a moment to point out no one is saying that certain topics cannot be discussed but rather they need to be discussed in different forums instead of their previous forums.

I do however have a question. In my opinion, the Christian perspective being brought to threads entertaining a Christian conspiracy will be seen as the 'skeptic's view.' There have been quite a few rant threads asking why skeptics come here. In every case, myself and many others including staff say the skeptical view should be welcomed here for an even sided discussion.

So, in religious conspiracy threads, would Christians or the current religion coming under fire not be considered a skeptical view?

Thanks in advance.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:18 PM
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i think the Consiracy in Religions (sub)forum actualy did have some conspiracy issues in it, and was not just a circle of believers patting each other on the back....


and the new (sub forum) Psy, Phil, M-P,
should be interesting, as there are thousands of years of Phils
out there,
and combined the PPMP should be like walking on lilly-pads,
as there's no substantial foundation where your footfalls tread.


thanks



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:18 PM
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Folks, please take things into perspective here.

ATS is not trying to run anyone off... come on...

If we're trying to work on some ideas to keep things more organized, to make it easy to find various topics, to keep a decent order, to make people feel more at ease posting about different things... let us give new ideas a try.

SO is not sitting in his house thinking of ways to make life on ATS more complicated for the members. He comes up with ideas to try and make things easier for the members. Let us at least try things out.

Why in the world would we be trying to run people off?

Give us a chance please?



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:19 PM
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It's kind of funny.

I said in Creationists will destroy ATS should belong in BTS. My post was said to be off topic. Now, look at where that thread is.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by wang_ke_~

NEW FORUM: Psychology, Philosophy & Metaphysics
This new AboveTopSecret.com forum is for the discussion of a wide range of non-religious topics: Consciousness, Mind, Epistemology, Psychology, Philosophy, Metaphysics, Self-Empowerment, Knowledge and also fringe subjects such as Mind-Control and Psychotronic Manipulation. All in all this will be an "intellectual & philosophical cafe" with a focus on everything from mental relaxing and non-religious personal balance, to conspiracies and speculation related to influencing the mind.


I'm pretty much a lightweight in the intellectual dept. but am so looking forward to this new sub-forum to learn and grow!

Thanks Springer, SO and Skyfloating for creating this new forum! I'm sure a lot of us here will benefit from it immensely!


^^^^^
Exactly what wang_ke said... Thanks a bunch, and I'm looking forward to it as well!



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
I SAY GET OVER IT....


I agree in principle, but we are all from different cultures, social backgrounds and we cover most ages groups. Nuances are and will be missed, my humour for example is seldom appreciated (by anyone truth be known), and you Americans can't even spell the word (IMO). Just as sometimes you can think that a poster is ill-educated only to realise that they don't use english as their first language. I have never felt ganged up on on ATS, nor have I ever felt intimidated, but I can understand why others may do. Surely you can too, if you try a little.

I have come across members as young as twelve and we have to understand that their perception of reality may be different to ours. Calling a twelve year old out or referring to them as ignorant is not my idea of time well spent, certainly not when I have the experience and education to help fill a gap in their knowledge that may change their perception or more importantly enthuse them to expand upon their knowledge for themselves.

Nobody likes to feel stupid and the been-there-done-that attitude of some can be tandamount to intimidation depending on the resources available to the recipient. We have to be aware that not everyone may have access to the information that we do, or know how to use the information available to them and hope that through tolerance and setting a 'good example' we can make a difference.


Originally posted by Rockpuck
Everyone seems to feel the world is out to get them..


I don't think everyone does, you don't, I don't but some certainly may do, and I'm not saying that they are right, just that we should be aware of our own behaviour and how WE deal with theirs.

And, as frustrating as it may be, ATS is in the business of conspiracy so of course conspiracy theory is going to be the primary focus and receive presidence...you have to learn to walk away from some threads and leave them to it...let the kids have their fun, if you can only ridicule and belittle them you haven't got anything to add, however if you wish to enlighten then do so, it may fall on deaf ears but at least you tried


All the best



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 




Hello SO,


Threads discussing science (evolution) should be limited to the Science and Technology forum, and threads discussing religious beliefs (creation) should be limited to the BTS forum discussed below.



If memory serves, when the O&C forum was created all the creation, ID and evolution topics were moved out of sci/tech and into the new forum. Are we reverting back to the old way, or am I missing something? Almost all (gotta be +95% around here) evo topics are written in a evo-vs-creationism and/or ID context... where should such topics go now? You say that evolution is science and creation is religious belief; so a thread which explores the position: the origin of life is best explained via a blind stochastic process and not a purposeful one is considered science and belongs in the sci/tech forum but, it's antithesis [the origin of life is best explained by a guided purposeful process and not a blind stochastic one] is considered religious and belongs on BTS. Is that correct?


A great many of these issues can be, and are, discussed on ATS without any mention of scripture(s)/religion(s), as they involve questions of science, method and interpretations there-of. Typically, since the creation of the O&C forum, we discuss them there and not sci/tech. Now, if I'm reading you correctly, if it's about evolution (pro or con?) it goes in sci/tech; if it's about Biblical creationism (pro or con?), it goes in BTS; if it's about teaching Intelligent Design or Biblical creationism in public schools it goes into the O&C forum (and that topic is the only one now allowed in that forum?) Or is it more like: if it's pro-evolution it goes in sci-tech, anti-ID it goes in O&C leaving any pro-ID or pro-Biblical creationism to go into BTS. Sorry if my questions are hard to follow. If I didn't get my point across I could give some examples and you could tell me where they'd go according to the new guidelines, and I could muster my limited mental strength to figure it out from there. Maybe.



Thanks for any clarifications... maybe it's just me but, thems' some muddy waters.


*for the record: I'm not making any arguments either way nor am I baiting (a quick re-read does give that impression) I just, honestly, have no clue where to post my topics of (usual) choice now. Thanks again.


[edit on 11-6-2008 by Rren]

[edit on 11-6-2008 by Rren]



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by Rren
If memory serves, when the O&C forum was created all the creation, ID and evolution topics were moved out of sci/tech and into the new forum.


That part kind of confused me, too, to be honest. I hear a lot of people talking about religion being 'all over the board' and it would seem origins debates would be better suited to the... origins forum, in my humble opinion. Seriously, there really are not that many incidences in the news about ID or creationism being forced in school or major conspiracies against evolution so I see that forum dying quickly if this were to stick.

And then where would we discuss things like the movie Expelled? It would be more along the lines of a conspiracy against ID but is the forum now only supposed to be about conspiracies targeting evolution and only evolution? This is an honest question. All this will do is create yet another forum where religion vs. materialism debates will take place. Which will then most likely result in more rant threads about religious topics invading forums.

Edited to fix some nasty typos.

[edit on 6/11/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:30 PM
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I think this is great. Really like the new forum and I think it will be a big hit. Keep up the great work.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

NEW FORUM: Psychology, Philosophy & Metaphysics



Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou....at last, somewhere to get to grips with the REAL STUFF that makes everything else here on ATS & BTS etc "Tick".

I actually feel like making a new thread.......... ooooh!



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 





The Conspiracies In Religion Forum (ATS)
This forum on AboveTopSecret.com has always been set aside as the dedicated forum to discuss potential conspiracies, scandals, and problems with organized religions and religious personalities. It should not be a place to discuss religion. From this point forward, we will be limiting all threads in this forum to the specific mandate.


First it seems a little difficult to discuss a religious issue without discussing religion as they are intimately connected. That aside, so are you saying ATS is not allowing conspiracies to falsely discredit religion and religious personalities to even be discussed in this forum? That would be a "conspiracy in religion." Maybe you should reverse the title to avoid the confusion to "Religion is a Conspiracy Forum". Wow... that's pretty prejudiced.

From what you have written, I understand you are saying that only derogatory topics to religion and religious personalities are acceptable in CIR. So if the conspiracy claims are false, I guess we are no longer allowed to refute them? By refuting false claims against the Bible or religion aren't we then then deemed posting "religiously".

So where does the discussion come in? Atheists patting each other on the butt and high-fiving each other?

In a similar fashion, are non religious or anti religious posts in the BTS faith forum now disallowed? Or is bashing religion acceptable in both but supporting it only in the one? Seems like you should censor all anti religious posting from the faith forum now. It seems only fair to follow from your above reasoning.

So from now on everyone has to agree - or they are off topic. Pity seems a little boring to me.



The Origins & Creationism Conspiracy Forum (ATS)
This forum on AboveTopSecret.com was established to discuss a spin-off hot topic from the Conspiracies In Religion forum, the effort by several groups (mainly evangelical Christians) to mandate the teaching a religious belief as science. It is not a place to debate creationism -v- evolution. Threads discussing science (evolution) should be limited to the Science and Technology forum, and threads discussing religious beliefs (creation) should be limited to the BTS forum discussed below.


( you forgot to capitalize "Christian" my spell checker fixed it for you
)

So the "origins" forum is exclusively for bashing (mainly) evangelical Christians now? Ok thanks for the warning. I'll stay out of that serpents lair. And who gets to decide what gets called science at ATS? Are you a scientist? I know of many top scientists like Dr John Lennox from Oxford University who believe in God and Intelligent Design. Check this thread www.belowtopsecret.com... So ID has to be discussed in the Faith forum or can we debate Darwinists in the science forum. Or are we not allowed to debate Darwinists anymore - is that it?



The Religion, Faith, And Theology Forum (BTS)
This forum, formerly known as "Faith and Spirituality" on BelowTopSecret.com will be the dedicated destination for all religiously-inspired discussions, including those that may be critical of religion, or no religion. Discussion of creation, creationism, and the potential merits of teaching the notion of creation in schools will be limited to this forum.


OK I see now... you can denigrate God and religion in all three forums but only defend in one. Well I guess it's going to make the BTS faith forum a mad house and the the CIR and Origins rather boring I suppose.




[edit on 6/11/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:37 PM
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I think discussion about Expelled should go to the movie forum, as it was a movie and predominately entertainment.

In fact, as somone who has used O&C a lot over my time here, O&C might as well be exterminated. It has essentially become a place of circular and tedious discussion. Even when a thread with a true conspiracy angle is posted it dies and is overtaken by tedious discussion related to lack of transitional fossils and other boring stuff.

YMMV.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
I have to tell you there have been many times that I have felt ganged up on by atheists on this board.

Thing is that I NEVER STARTED A THREAD TO WHINE ABOUT IT!


Although I agree with everything this member said in his post, I am going to take the time to focus on this quoted segment because I feel it is crucial to understanding this drama. There have been so many whine threads lately on ATS coming from... well... sorry but from the atheists. I have been screaming this from the roof tops but that is what appears to have happened. The squeaky wheels got the grease while those who were mature enough to handle the heat simply rolled their eyes and moved along when they perceived injustice or bias or were trolled and baited relentlessly.

Ok, now I am going to fall back into lurker mode on this thread.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
The Issue Of Religiously Inspired Topics

NEW FORUM: Psychology, Philosophy & Metaphysics
This new AboveTopSecret.com forum is for the discussion of a wide range of non-religous topics: Consciousness, Mind, Epistemology, Psychology, Philosophy, Metaphysics, Self-Empowerment, Knowledge and also fringe subjects such as Mind-Control and Psychotronic Manipulation. All in all this will be an "intellectual & philosophical cafe" with a focus on everything from mental relaxing and non-religious personal balance, to conspiracies and speculation related to influencing the mind.
(Coming Soon)

[edit on 11-6-2008 by SkepticOverlord]


*clap clap clap* Looking forward to the new Forum



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