The Issue Of Religiously Inspired Topics on ATS and BTS

I just think we get more responses on the ATS side of religion. If it is moved, we can see a great decrease in debate. I for one never go over there, unless a thread gets moved over there.

I agree with Rockpuck on his above post. If you group a group of individuals together it needs to be done across the board.

Also, in the U2U it said this meessage was sent to 8,000 something users that were active in the past 30 days. Wow. I thought ATS was a lot bigger than that. Where have all of the members gone?

Thank you very much, SO, for the new forum 'coming soon'...

When?..lol

I can wait...honest..
( hurries off to prepare umpteen threads to mass post in new forum...)

It is odd though how I, and I expect several others, have already been formulating thoughts and ideas about topics in the new forum..

I know I already got a few things I'd like to share..

Thanks again to you, SO and Skyfloating...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

NEW FORUM: Psychology, Philosophy & Metaphysics

Now I'm drooooooling!

That's a topic that has always been of interest to me so I'm another one that is glad to see it open here.

Thanks!

I have never once posted as part of a Christian group. However, I can remember several occasions where nonbelievers "ganged up" against Christian belief to steer a thread. It would seem that singling out Christians is more of an agenda than anything else. An agenda to drive Christians from ATS. I've seen this coming for a long time and it's unfortunate.

I guess the nonbelievers win because this is my last day here as I'm sure it is for many other Christians. You can spin it any way you like SO but you know exactly what you're doing deep down.

Give a cheer as we exit! I'll take my integrity and my "ignorant" beliefs elsewhere.

Psychology, Philosophy & Metaphysical Forum - Thumbs Waaaay UP!

As for the 'ganging up' on people. Well, maybe some don't see it that way, but I believe we can find many examples of what appears to be very coordinated efforts to single out a member and 'repress' their input or short-circuit there flow of debate by what one might think is a 'like-minded cabal'. Maybe it's just coincidence, maybe not. But it seems that by properly isolating the debaters, at least the remainder of those interested in engaging the topic can proceed sans distractions.

Good luck with this stratagem. It may just work to funnel and contain the conflicts.

Yeah I do feel ganged up on on these threads. I am against far extremes of all religions like fanatical muslims, zionist jews, and crazy christians and every time the whole thread gangs up on me like I am a racist. I dont know if this will fix the problem though. People are passionate about threads like these and people want to have their opinion heard.

reply to post by jbondo


No, I know you and I don't talk alot,
but, I would sure MISS your level head and wisdom!

LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

The reason groups such as Christians and Masons, and YES they ARE groups (they even have a lable and system of belief that they all follow)

There are many, many groups. Freemasonry can be classified as a "group" because they share a common belief, same with Christians, but then Anti Masons and Anti Christians ARE ALSO a group.

It goes both ways. ATS does not seem to understand that.

Why is this? It's simple. These theologies are not based on true facts, but mere opinion and knowledge that has been molded over time to fit the agendas of the ever changing religious genus, and you'll find that copious Christians share a multitude of varying ideas about their OWN religion.

I agree, to a point. Because again, it works both ways. Someone can say a Christian is wrong. Because it's the Christians belief his belief is correct.. not absolute fact, sure. But the anti Christian is also based purely on opinion, as neither can be proved or debunked.

Again, apparently some people do not see this.. double headed coin.

If you have the right to preach AGAINST a mans religion, the man has the right to DEFEND.

I've received a u2u recently from a fanatical member telling me to f off and die!

Yes, I have gotten those as well..

In fact just last month on the boards, public for all to see an anti Mason told me to "f off".

Just because you subscribe to a group, say Christianity, or Masonry, does not make you a fanatic, it does not group you into a singular way of thinking. Those who oppose said institutions can likewise, and many times are far more fanatical.

FOR INSTANCE. While SO will preach how horrible Freemasons are on the Secret Societies forum, and how we gang up and attack people...

the ratio of banned Masons and banned Anti Masons is 1:10 .. anti's are banned on a regular basis, where as Freemasons are not, because anti's while lower in number tend to be far more fanatical.

I would say the same thing is most likely true for anti Christians.

Yes, you are individuals, a group of individuals all sharing the same ideology

True. and anyone who oppose any philosophy or theology are ALSO a group sharing a likewise belief.

Kilgore:

The point is that some members DID feel ganged up on,

Ever stop to think that Freemasons and Christians both felt and feel ganged up on?

Ever think Conservatives feel ganged up on ATS .. ATS is a highly liberal left leaning site..

Ever think conspiracy theorist feel ganged up on, people always trying to debunk their stuff?

Ever think Muslims feel ganged up on, every one thinking they are terrrrist...

Blacks and Whites on ATS repeatedly make threads saying THEIR race is ganged up on. Both sides. Go figure.

I SAY GET OVER IT....

Everyone seems to feel the world is out to get them..

ATS seems to side with conspiracy theorist, irrational as it may be, and apparently also siding with those who oppose a certain theological belief.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
This forum on AboveTopSecret.com has always been set aside as the dedicated forum to discuss potential conspiracies, scandals, and problems with organized religions and religious personalities. It should not be a place to discuss religion. From this point forward, we will be limiting all threads in this forum to the specific mandate.

This sounds good in theory. Keep the forums nice and tidy, and everybody on topic. However, I feel as though this mandate restrains discussion. I understand the part about discussing conspiracies,scandals etc, however these discussions naturally lead to other aspects. Sometimes you have to go over a little history to make a point. Even without injecting your own opinion into a subject, sometimes you have to stray a little to give people relevant information so they understand your overall point. I guess my question is, how do you define religious discussion outside of conspiracies,scandals etc? And how strictly will this new mandate be enforced? Is there a little leeway ina scenario like I described, or are is there going to be a zero or almost zero tolerance policy? I wouldn't blame you for having a zero tolerance policy though, sometimes people just don't get it, or refuse to get it,

The Origins & Creationism Conspiracy Forum (ATS)
It is not a place to debate creationism -v- evolution. Threads discussing science (evolution) should be limited to the Science and Technology forum, and threads discussing religious beliefs (creation) should be limited to the BTS forum discussed below.

Hmm, this almost sounds to me like two groups couldn't play nice, so now they have to be completely seperated. While I certainly agree that the rhetoric between ToE'ists and Creationists has gotten way out of hand lately, I think it's still a very important discussion to be having. And I have a feeling that even if you seperate the two schools of thought, they're still going to seek each other out and go at it. SO where can we debate creationism vs evolution, and all it's ramifications?

Overall I like the new changes, I can't wait to check out Philosophy and Metaphysics and all that good stuff. I just hope the radical militant types around here haven't made it more difficult for us moderates to have an honest discussion. Time will tell how these new forum designations pan out.Hopefully things get better with all the bickering around here, and honest intelligent discusssion will remain intact.

Originally posted by jbondo
An agenda to drive Christians from ATS.

Is that really it SO? Do you want us gone? Just say so if that is the case.

I have to tell you there have been many times that I have felt ganged up on by atheists on this board.

Thing is that I NEVER STARTED A THREAD TO WHINE ABOUT IT!

Funny thing, SO, you get threads started by Christians to discuss religion and the atheists show up JUST TO ARGUE and then SO says the Christians are ganging up on the atheists.

Atheists flock to religious threads. Why would someone who does not believe in the Lord care enough to make a presence in every religious discussion they can?

Either they aren’t really atheists at all or they are trolling.

Someone needs a reality check, SO.

It has been going for years. At least the 4 that I have been here.

You have already driven away so much talent from these boards with your constant "changes." ATS isnt what it used to be. Do you really want to drive away more of the old school ATSers?

Stop playing around SO. If you want us gone just say it.

Cater to your base, SO, cause you are loosing it.

[edit on 11-6-2008 by cavscout]

Well finally ATS is getting things in their right place, I guess once in a while things like this may happen and people tend to get scramble in their intentions with some of the threads.

Get ready for the political, bait and rhetoric heating up until elections.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
NEW FORUM: Psychology, Philosophy & Metaphysics
This new AboveTopSecret.com forum is for the discussion of a wide range of non-religous topics: Consciousness, Mind, Epistemology, Psychology, Philosophy, Metaphysics, Self-Empowerment, Knowledge and also fringe subjects such as Mind-Control and Psychotronic Manipulation. All in all this will be an "intellectual & philosophical cafe" with a focus on everything from mental relaxing and non-religious personal balance, to conspiracies and speculation related to influencing the mind.

There are a lot of topics currently being posted in forums like Skunk Works that would be a lot better placed in this forum. I think this is a great idea, and hopefully it will attract more discussion revolving around these kinds of topics. Sounds like a new home on ATS to me.

[edit on 11-6-2008 by bsbray11]

reply to post by cavscout


Very well point, excellent representation of the facts.

ATS seeks tighter and tighter control of debates, and seemingly continue to pander to exclussive sides.

ATS has certainly changed since I joined back in 06'

reply to post by Rockpuck


I think the point that is being missed, or maybe that I didn't convey well enough is that a lot of these people aren't necessarily anti-mason or anti-Christian, they're just pro-fact, pro-intellect, pro-logic and that inevitably ends up clashing with the illogicalities and anti-scientific foundations of Christianity. Such as myself. I don't consider me to be anything, I use athiesm as a means of simplicity to express what I am because I certaintly don't subscribe to any God that is described in any religion and I come to that conclusion through heavy research and logic.

Regarding telling anyone to F off, that's just unnecessary and an evident weakness in the ability to debate strongly and stay on topic with facts and logic.

[edit on 11-6-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

reply to post by cavscout
I feel your pain. I am an atheist, and many times I feel both sides are going too far. Rest assured that this treatment goes both ways and it's not an Atheist-specific phenomenon. While I do feel the moderators here have a part to play in keeping the peace, I feel it's just as much the communities responsibility to indentify who is being unreasonable and inflammatory and call them out on it. I appreciate the mods and the owners of the site, but it is my personal opinion that we the people need to be a little more proactive[without being malicious or militant of course]. Either call out their flawed logic and flush them out, or ignore them altogether. The mods should be moderating, not babysitting. I also don't like the idea of rearranging the site just to try and keep people from bickering. Making new forums for new topics is cool, but segregation is not so cool. But what are we to do...

Religion, the most corrupt, destructive, evil, absurd, false, fable, ficticious mind control tale(s) ever devised by the mind of man.

Ya would think there god would at least stop by for the hearing and check in for there defense. I rest my case..............

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


No, your point was well made, I understood entirely, I do believe it is you who is not understanding what I am saying.

a lot of these people aren't necessarily anti-mason or anti-Christian

True. Never said they all where. There have been good debates on religion, masonry and many other topics.. then there are those who some would call "trolls".

they're just pro-fact, pro-intellect, pro-logic and that inevitably ends up clashing with the illogicalities and anti-scientific foundations of Christianity.

Wrong. While I agree with evolution, and science I do not for an instance assume that because I believe in science (yes science is a belief) that I am somehow intellectually superior to a Christian who believes in creationism. It may lack logical foundation, but I can neither prove or disprove the existence of creationism or their God can I? We are thus intellectually equal. Even scientist and evolutionist sometimes have a deity to which they subscribe, and I would gather my beliefs in the eyes of a Christian are illogical and absurd.

Double headed coin.

I don't consider me to be anything, I use atheism as a means of simplicity to express what I am because I certainly don't subscribe to any God that is described in any religion and I come to that conclusion through heavy research and logic.

For one who preaches logic you seem to refuse to use it in your reasoning. Take for instance Atheism...

To be an Atheist you must recognize the concept that is God, and then to refuse belief in that concept. Only a man who has grown up in a situation and NEVER heard the concept of God can claim to be Atheist, otherwise you simply refuse to acknowledge. Not so much not believing in anything, but rather refusing to believe in the established concepts that other people choose to follow.

Logical, I think so.

Regarding telling anyone to F off, that's just unnecessary and an evident weakness in the ability to debate strongly and stay on topic with facts and logic.

Quite right.. more or less a lack of subtlety rather.. I believe evidence that one lacks the ability to properly debate the topic is when they resort to ANY form of personal attacks instead of attacking the topic.

The ultimate display of lacking the ability to debate at all and simply admitting defeat, is to run off and complain to the Mod's that people are "ganging up on you" and then start a thread to complain that other people refuted your argument so severely you had to cry about it.

Personally, I find it pathetic, and I reserve no time for such lowliness..


Perhaps SO would be spending his time better describing what a debate is, instead of accusing innocent people of causing all these supposed "problems".

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
I think the point that is being missed, or maybe that I didn't convey well enough is that a lot of these people aren't necessarily anti-mason or anti-Christian, they're just pro-fact, pro-intellect, pro-logic and that inevitably ends up clashing with the illogicalities and anti-scientific foundations of Christianity.

I'm of two minds here: Quite often anti-Masons make posts which are demonstrably not true, or when they cannot within a shadow of a doubt be proven false, they can neither be proven to be true.

I'm all for fact and logic as much as the next guy, but those usually aren't brought to the table by our attackers.

That being said, this is a conspiracy forum, so chances are high that none of us can back up everything we say conclusively to the satisfaction of all others. I mean, lets face it, this is all about conjecture and things we can't prove, which is the heart of all conspiracy theory.

There's got to be a middle ground. Perhaps it is letting everyone post their 2 cents so long as decorum is maintained. I don't know.

I have mixed feelings on this.

Sure a broader specrtum of forums can be more precise for individual topics that only target that topic.

This can spread out the information in more then one place and is harder for us to identify what people are saying as a whole and we will have to keep trolling and then have to try and put the picture together by taking all the pieces from more the none forum and may miss somethings this way.

If you ask me it is, which you aren't, this is contibuting to the problem because post are being moved by where ever the mods choose to put them. They are also being spreed out and harded to see all the information because of this.

I have been someone that has had mine moved because it did not agree with the MOD itself.

What I do when I make a topic I can also taget it for that genre but that on is a piece. They usually end up drifting of that genre because discussion happens and more information is needed and then basically of topic but on topic at the same time.

I have asked for a blog, nothing. I have asked for something so I can lay out for everyone the big picture but no responmse.

it is important to see the big picture and the big picture spread from masionry, to aliens, to religions, to pschology, to theology, to the NWO, to climate change and so many topics and if I have to spread the information out and you do not read the other parts, you are just like WTF??


So what can you do for the people that want to draw the lines and make the connections between multiple topics and have the information in one confined place instead of trolling or missing import information?

Originally posted by Rockpuck

ATS seems to side with conspiracy theorist, irrational as it may be

ATS just happens to be a website for Conspiracy-Theories, Ufology and Fringe-Science.

While many different groups and ideologies are welcome here, the core-target-group "Conspiracy Theorist".

Surprised?

[edit on 11-6-2008 by Skyfloating]