What ALightinDarkness is basically ssaying about your posting is the whole "I know more than you hah hah " that you back up with questions just
makes you look like a git. It's been used and abused to much for anyone to really take you seriously.
Freemasons and Power, page 2
reply posted on 11-6-2008 @ 11:19 PM by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by applebiter
Your intentionally trying to be sarcastic, but Rune said what I meant. Im happy to have a conversation, but to do so the conversation must evolve beyond you simply telling us how much you know and that we're all sheep if we disagree on you being enlightened. As Rune said...its been done before. This is ATS, this sort of thing is done hourly.
Your intentionally trying to be sarcastic, but Rune said what I meant. Im happy to have a conversation, but to do so the conversation must evolve beyond you simply telling us how much you know and that we're all sheep if we disagree on you being enlightened. As Rune said...its been done before. This is ATS, this sort of thing is done hourly.
reply posted on 11-6-2008 @ 11:37 PM by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by applebiter
And this sort of post suggests that indeed all your looking to do is troll. I went back in this thread and counted...found 0. However, you came up first in terms of telling us you know it all any anyone disagreeing with you is simply not enlightened. Thats 1 - I could keep counting, but I'm fairly sure of what the final score will be.
There is a difference between - gasp - a mason claiming to know about his fraternity - and what your doing. I am a member so I know whats going on, and I provide evidence for my claims. What your doing is telling me you know about something your not a member of and not saying why, nor providing any evidence for your claims. There is a notable and obvious difference.
I have found in my short time the wisest among us are not arrogant. You don't know anything I particularly care about, but if your going to continue this game of "I know more than youuuuuu" you'll need to provide some evidence for it or I'll just regard it as yet another rant. No ones going to beg you to grace us with your knowledge and "ask you questions" because you haven't proven any sort of knowledge that would make it worth anyones time. There is nothing ask, you haven't proven any sort of knowledge that is worthy of asking questions of.
And this sort of post suggests that indeed all your looking to do is troll. I went back in this thread and counted...found 0. However, you came up first in terms of telling us you know it all any anyone disagreeing with you is simply not enlightened. Thats 1 - I could keep counting, but I'm fairly sure of what the final score will be.
There is a difference between - gasp - a mason claiming to know about his fraternity - and what your doing. I am a member so I know whats going on, and I provide evidence for my claims. What your doing is telling me you know about something your not a member of and not saying why, nor providing any evidence for your claims. There is a notable and obvious difference.
I have found in my short time the wisest among us are not arrogant. You don't know anything I particularly care about, but if your going to continue this game of "I know more than youuuuuu" you'll need to provide some evidence for it or I'll just regard it as yet another rant. No ones going to beg you to grace us with your knowledge and "ask you questions" because you haven't proven any sort of knowledge that would make it worth anyones time. There is nothing ask, you haven't proven any sort of knowledge that is worthy of asking questions of.
reply posted on 11-6-2008 @ 11:43 PM by NGC2736
reply to post by applebiter
Now I'm asking the question. Exactly what do you have? I've seen this go on for pages, and my patience is wearing thin. It's either time to spit it out, with whatever proof you have, and get on with debating the merits, or lack thereof, or stop with the posting meaninglessly.
Because if I decide you're trolling, we play another game entirely.
And before you ask, I AM NOT a mason. They dislike me as much as the anti-mason crowd.
Now I'm asking the question. Exactly what do you have? I've seen this go on for pages, and my patience is wearing thin. It's either time to spit it out, with whatever proof you have, and get on with debating the merits, or lack thereof, or stop with the posting meaninglessly.
Because if I decide you're trolling, we play another game entirely.
And before you ask, I AM NOT a mason. They dislike me as much as the anti-mason crowd.
reply posted on 11-6-2008 @ 11:58 PM by NGC2736
reply to post by applebiter
I'm neither impressed by people playing dress up, or bothered by it. I don't care what much of any group does as long as it doesn't directly effect me.
I again ask you to come to the point. You started a thread, you've hinted and beat around the bush, and you've tried, IMO, to make anybody you could angry in the process.
Now I've made a simple enough request. Lay out whatever you want to debate, whatever premise you have, and let those who care about such things debate it with you like adults.
Oh, and the sarcastic Mr. Man, one of many sarcasms I have heard from you, is not amusing.
I'm neither impressed by people playing dress up, or bothered by it. I don't care what much of any group does as long as it doesn't directly effect me.
I again ask you to come to the point. You started a thread, you've hinted and beat around the bush, and you've tried, IMO, to make anybody you could angry in the process.
Now I've made a simple enough request. Lay out whatever you want to debate, whatever premise you have, and let those who care about such things debate it with you like adults.
Oh, and the sarcastic Mr. Man, one of many sarcasms I have heard from you, is not amusing.
reply posted on 12-6-2008 @ 12:17 AM by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by applebiter
You came in, acted as if you had some sort of profound knowledge but wouldn't tell anyone - except tell everyone they were wrong. It gets pointed out, you get upset and tell us your leaving. I don't get it.
There is no "true" initiation in my opinion, the masonic light (which beyond its meaning in the ritual, also signifies knowledge to me) offered by masonry is free to any. Masonry is one way to seek the light of knowledge, there are other ways for other people and other times.
The purpose of ritual is to impress upon you the meaning of the act. Sure, we could all sit around and listen to people lecture us in the lodge, and while it would communicate the knowledge, it would not impress upon anyone its importance. The ritual is not needed per say, but its the way we do it and its not trying to "dress up" anything.
You came in, acted as if you had some sort of profound knowledge but wouldn't tell anyone - except tell everyone they were wrong. It gets pointed out, you get upset and tell us your leaving. I don't get it.
There is no "true" initiation in my opinion, the masonic light (which beyond its meaning in the ritual, also signifies knowledge to me) offered by masonry is free to any. Masonry is one way to seek the light of knowledge, there are other ways for other people and other times.
The purpose of ritual is to impress upon you the meaning of the act. Sure, we could all sit around and listen to people lecture us in the lodge, and while it would communicate the knowledge, it would not impress upon anyone its importance. The ritual is not needed per say, but its the way we do it and its not trying to "dress up" anything.
reply posted on 12-6-2008 @ 01:22 AM by JoshNorton
reply to post by applebiter
Q. How did you know it to be a door, being hoodwinked?
A. By first meeting with resistance, afterward gaining admission.
So are you agreeing that overcoming the resistance makes the admission that much more significant?
Q. How did you know it to be a door, being hoodwinked?
A. By first meeting with resistance, afterward gaining admission.
So are you agreeing that overcoming the resistance makes the admission that much more significant?
reply posted on 12-6-2008 @ 01:30 AM by JoshNorton
reply to post by applebiter
The path is the individuals to take. If you're lucky, you may find a mentor who can answer questions, but most likely only insomuch as it applied to his own journey. Your challenges will be your own, and only you know how to overcome them. Just know you'll have support should you stumble along the way.
The path is the individuals to take. If you're lucky, you may find a mentor who can answer questions, but most likely only insomuch as it applied to his own journey. Your challenges will be your own, and only you know how to overcome them. Just know you'll have support should you stumble along the way.
reply posted on 12-6-2008 @ 11:38 AM by Rockpuck
reply to post by applebiter
Hi apple:
The rise of a structured secret society that is used for subversive means quite honestly depends on the political situation of the age.
For instance, Freemasonry, if you follow the belief it arose as a society of equality in Great Britain during times of religious persecution, sponsored by enlightenment ideologies, arose more as an equalizer then a secret society. It became secret because of persecution on it, because it defied the norms.. secret yet not secret, the only real secret was membership because to be discovered you risked social outcasting.
Then in America and quite possibly in France Masonry was used as a subversive tool to assist in the organization of a revolution. I don't believe Freemasonry it's self moved towards revolution, but rather members who happened to believe in enlightenment ideas formed inside the safety net of secrecy Masonry provided, and thus it was perfect to plan a war and the layout of the constitution we all hold dear.
However, it can be said that it didn't matter whether or not Freemasonry was used by the war planners and philosophical leaders of the age because either way, it would have been done in secrecy. It wouldn't make sense to plot against a world power in the open, would it?
Several very good explanations. First and foremost it is very important that liberalized ideas in any dictatorship are eliminated. An easy way to do that is target structured groups. Freemasonry is a beacon of liberty, freedom and just ideas .. which is why it is constantly targeted. Intellectuals tend to hold ideas quite similar to Freemasonry, and also liberal ideas. The USSR built a city of intellectuals, they intended this city to be the jewel of Mother Russia.. a collection of genius Slavs to rival the West.
Except after they built the city, put in the students and the teachers.. it all went to hell in a hand basket. The USSR learned a quick lesson. Intellectuals in large quantities and in close proximity spread ideas like wild fire.. and the city lost it's purpose and few supported Mother Russia in the end. In fact, they leaned towards Democracy.
Ideas are the worst enemy of ANY ruler, benevolent or not.
Hitler was a good leader. He may not have been a good man, but honestly good leaders are rarely good men. Hitler was also an amazing public speaker. What "groomed" Hitler was speaking in front of Unionist who shared his ideas .. he was a very, very well spoken man, and quickly built a support base which spread through out the troubled German community..
No lodge, no secret society, no specific idea groomed Hitler. Great men are born into this world, not made, and Hitler was destined to be what he was and nothing would have stopped it.
There are two groups of Anti Freemasons. The first group is highly uneducated.. very very narrow minded and honestly simplistic.. their mind set is set in stone and will not very.. bigotry and wild ideas fuel their hatred.. The second group are intellectual questioners.. anything not completely open, explained and fully revealed is suspicious and to be questioned. This of course is a form of narrow minded ignorance, but no where near as bad as the first group. Questioning authority, and other significant institutions is a very good thing, however some times it is misplaced and aimed at the innocent.
All secret societies are formed around SOMETHING .. Doesn't matter what it is, but it relates to a specific idea. Idea's can be dangerous, and thus so can secret societies (the KKK for example is a semi secret society) but they can also be genuine and good hearted ideas, such as Freemasonry. I would not say that people are attracted to power, but rather the very specific ideas the society represents. Power is formulated from ideas, movements based around these ideas, and so it is quite plausible that to join a society for philosophical means can translate back into power over people, or institutions.
It's not impossible. In fact, it has happened before. However in all known instances, the singular lodge generates it's own ideas and go rouge against standard Freemasonry. The other lodges may not be privy to the politics of the rouge lodge, but that is only because the rouge lodge is no longer operating as Freemasonry but rather an organization unto it's self. Think of them like Cancer cells.. they go undetected, then wreck havoc.. but it has nothing to do with the body, it's an alien entity, and once found out, needs to be cut away.
Freemasonry and any society like it is not perfect, it can be infected and we have to rely on the systems of checks and balances we put in place to ensure the Body of Freemasonry remains "cancer free."
Hi apple:
I'm interested in the dynamics of power and secret societies. Maybe someone can shed some light on the issue.
The rise of a structured secret society that is used for subversive means quite honestly depends on the political situation of the age.
For instance, Freemasonry, if you follow the belief it arose as a society of equality in Great Britain during times of religious persecution, sponsored by enlightenment ideologies, arose more as an equalizer then a secret society. It became secret because of persecution on it, because it defied the norms.. secret yet not secret, the only real secret was membership because to be discovered you risked social outcasting.
Then in America and quite possibly in France Masonry was used as a subversive tool to assist in the organization of a revolution. I don't believe Freemasonry it's self moved towards revolution, but rather members who happened to believe in enlightenment ideas formed inside the safety net of secrecy Masonry provided, and thus it was perfect to plan a war and the layout of the constitution we all hold dear.
However, it can be said that it didn't matter whether or not Freemasonry was used by the war planners and philosophical leaders of the age because either way, it would have been done in secrecy. It wouldn't make sense to plot against a world power in the open, would it?
If you look at the 20th Century's most despotic political movements, you will find them, in the Western world, all taking a similar first step in expelling academics, intellectuals, Jews, and Freemasons.
Several very good explanations. First and foremost it is very important that liberalized ideas in any dictatorship are eliminated. An easy way to do that is target structured groups. Freemasonry is a beacon of liberty, freedom and just ideas .. which is why it is constantly targeted. Intellectuals tend to hold ideas quite similar to Freemasonry, and also liberal ideas. The USSR built a city of intellectuals, they intended this city to be the jewel of Mother Russia.. a collection of genius Slavs to rival the West.
Except after they built the city, put in the students and the teachers.. it all went to hell in a hand basket. The USSR learned a quick lesson. Intellectuals in large quantities and in close proximity spread ideas like wild fire.. and the city lost it's purpose and few supported Mother Russia in the end. In fact, they leaned towards Democracy.
Ideas are the worst enemy of ANY ruler, benevolent or not.
Looking at Nazi Germany in particular, though, we can see that a fraternity related to the Freemasons, the Thule occult lodge, actually exploited and groomed Adolf Hitler to become what he became. What is the nature of the relationship between these lodges apart from shared membership?
Hitler was a good leader. He may not have been a good man, but honestly good leaders are rarely good men. Hitler was also an amazing public speaker. What "groomed" Hitler was speaking in front of Unionist who shared his ideas .. he was a very, very well spoken man, and quickly built a support base which spread through out the troubled German community..
No lodge, no secret society, no specific idea groomed Hitler. Great men are born into this world, not made, and Hitler was destined to be what he was and nothing would have stopped it.
it seems to me that people who are not Freemasons have a sort of schizophrenic attitude about them.
There are two groups of Anti Freemasons. The first group is highly uneducated.. very very narrow minded and honestly simplistic.. their mind set is set in stone and will not very.. bigotry and wild ideas fuel their hatred.. The second group are intellectual questioners.. anything not completely open, explained and fully revealed is suspicious and to be questioned. This of course is a form of narrow minded ignorance, but no where near as bad as the first group. Questioning authority, and other significant institutions is a very good thing, however some times it is misplaced and aimed at the innocent.
People are attracted to secret societies either because they think they have the knowledge they seek, or because they are a back door into secret power.
All secret societies are formed around SOMETHING .. Doesn't matter what it is, but it relates to a specific idea. Idea's can be dangerous, and thus so can secret societies (the KKK for example is a semi secret society) but they can also be genuine and good hearted ideas, such as Freemasonry. I would not say that people are attracted to power, but rather the very specific ideas the society represents. Power is formulated from ideas, movements based around these ideas, and so it is quite plausible that to join a society for philosophical means can translate back into power over people, or institutions.
I think maybe that the lodge is there to help you amplify what you already are, so that you might be of service in some capacity to a greater work to which most Masons are not privy.
It's not impossible. In fact, it has happened before. However in all known instances, the singular lodge generates it's own ideas and go rouge against standard Freemasonry. The other lodges may not be privy to the politics of the rouge lodge, but that is only because the rouge lodge is no longer operating as Freemasonry but rather an organization unto it's self. Think of them like Cancer cells.. they go undetected, then wreck havoc.. but it has nothing to do with the body, it's an alien entity, and once found out, needs to be cut away.
Freemasonry and any society like it is not perfect, it can be infected and we have to rely on the systems of checks and balances we put in place to ensure the Body of Freemasonry remains "cancer free."
reply posted on 12-6-2008 @ 11:53 AM by Rockpuck
reply to post by liamoohay
The seven pointed star does not "originate" in Freemasonry. The ONLY pointed star used is an upside down star used in the Eastern Star.
Which is not Freemasonry, but a group that admitts Freemasons...
That is important to understand.
And the star / shield is not a new symbol, and has been used by police long before the Eastern Star was created.
The seven pointed star does not "originate" in Freemasonry. The ONLY pointed star used is an upside down star used in the Eastern Star.
Which is not Freemasonry, but a group that admitts Freemasons...
That is important to understand.
And the star / shield is not a new symbol, and has been used by police long before the Eastern Star was created.
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