Freemasons and Power

What ALightinDarkness is basically ssaying about your posting is the whole "I know more than you hah hah " that you back up with questions just makes you look like a git. It's been used and abused to much for anyone to really take you seriously.

reply to post by applebiter


Your intentionally trying to be sarcastic, but Rune said what I meant. Im happy to have a conversation, but to do so the conversation must evolve beyond you simply telling us how much you know and that we're all sheep if we disagree on you being enlightened. As Rune said...its been done before. This is ATS, this sort of thing is done hourly.

Really? Maybe you guys should go back and count how many times you've used name calling or accused me of "pretending to know more" or some such. I'm totally open to questions. Be as respectful to me as you would to a person in a face to face situation and I'll return the favor.

I'm not superior. Maybe I should preface every statement I make with "In my opinion...", but that sounds like something from the Department of Redundancy Department. Do I know something? Yep. Does it bother you that I think I know something? Yep. Ask a goddamn question and we can turn this thing around.

reply to post by applebiter


And this sort of post suggests that indeed all your looking to do is troll. I went back in this thread and counted...found 0. However, you came up first in terms of telling us you know it all any anyone disagreeing with you is simply not enlightened. Thats 1 - I could keep counting, but I'm fairly sure of what the final score will be.

There is a difference between - gasp - a mason claiming to know about his fraternity - and what your doing. I am a member so I know whats going on, and I provide evidence for my claims. What your doing is telling me you know about something your not a member of and not saying why, nor providing any evidence for your claims. There is a notable and obvious difference.

I have found in my short time the wisest among us are not arrogant. You don't know anything I particularly care about, but if your going to continue this game of "I know more than youuuuuu" you'll need to provide some evidence for it or I'll just regard it as yet another rant. No ones going to beg you to grace us with your knowledge and "ask you questions" because you haven't proven any sort of knowledge that would make it worth anyones time. There is nothing ask, you haven't proven any sort of knowledge that is worthy of asking questions of.

Again, I am truly humbled by your enlightened attitude. Now that I have been put in my proper place, I will go about my business.

reply to post by applebiter


Now I'm asking the question. Exactly what do you have? I've seen this go on for pages, and my patience is wearing thin. It's either time to spit it out, with whatever proof you have, and get on with debating the merits, or lack thereof, or stop with the posting meaninglessly.

Because if I decide you're trolling, we play another game entirely.

And before you ask, I AM NOT a mason. They dislike me as much as the anti-mason crowd.

I really don't care what game you decide to play, Mr. Man. My patience has already worn out. Any desire I had to get a good conversation going has been extinguished.

To be honest with you, it is with respect to the important work that I believe Freemasonry is doing that I hesitate to just "put it out there". Because I'm not a Mason, I don't know whether my contribution would help or harm. I can tell you with certainty that the only accouterments required for true initiation are an intense desire for transformation and an open heart. No aprons, swords, or secret handshakes are required.

I think that maybe I have been arrogant. What just happened here probably explains why Freemasonry has to add all of the drama and pageantry. I'm done.

reply to post by applebiter


I'm neither impressed by people playing dress up, or bothered by it. I don't care what much of any group does as long as it doesn't directly effect me.

I again ask you to come to the point. You started a thread, you've hinted and beat around the bush, and you've tried, IMO, to make anybody you could angry in the process.

Now I've made a simple enough request. Lay out whatever you want to debate, whatever premise you have, and let those who care about such things debate it with you like adults.

Oh, and the sarcastic Mr. Man, one of many sarcasms I have heard from you, is not amusing.

The Masons in this forum are used to being attacked and insulted in just about any way possible and for it to be followed with faily loose moderation.
So anything said in a nonspecific way is taken to bewith that intent. And it also doesn't matter if you think you are applauding them for something they don't actually do, you are still in the wrong. After awhile it gets tiring trying to correct someone over and over, not speaking that they are correcting you specificly, of course, but others. But you started out by associating Masons with Hitler. That doesn't fly. You also said that the Masons are actually part of two different groups, and inner and outer. It's very common to hear that, and again, even if you don't mean it the same way, it's something very coomon from Antis. Then you also said that of course, not all Masons are in the know.
Yet you provide no backing for any of this, you are saying a lot of words with no real meat to them. Which is up to you to provide, making the statments.

Originally posted by applebiter
To be honest with you, it is with respect to the important work that I believe Freemasonry is doing that I hesitate to just "put it out there". Because I'm not a Mason, I don't know whether my contribution would help or harm. I can tell you with certainty that the only accouterments required for true initiation are an intense desire for transformation and an open heart. No aprons, swords, or secret handshakes are required.

I think that maybe I have been arrogant. What just happened here probably explains why Freemasonry has to add all of the drama and pageantry. I'm done.

I was raised to the degree of Master Mason three days after I'd suffered a mini-stroke. My ceremony was the night before I went in to see a neurologist and let me tell you, not knowing what was going on in my head had me scared out of my wits. But the ritual had meaning. It had its place, as all rituals do. At the end of the night, when all obligations had been made, and all the silly drama had been performed, I was a Mason. Among other things, I'd sworn to help take care of the widows and orphans of other Masons, and along those lines, I knew then that my own wife and child would be taken care of if the problems with my brain were serious. That meant more to me than anything in the world at that moment.

Aprons, swords, pageantry? *shrug* Sure, they don't have to be there if you're ready for the light. But they certainly help get you in the right headspace if you're not ready.

(BTW, brain was fine and I got my equilibrium back within a few weeks.)

As an additional anecdote (Bonus!) I think that when I received the 32°, and became a Master of the Royal Secret, that secret probably meant more to me after having sat through 14 hours of staged productions of various other degrees. When the secret was finally revealed, I got the biggest grin on my face, because of course, it was obvious. And yet true.

But here I am waxing on about truth and light. I'll let you continue your subterfuge if you'd like.

reply to post by applebiter


You came in, acted as if you had some sort of profound knowledge but wouldn't tell anyone - except tell everyone they were wrong. It gets pointed out, you get upset and tell us your leaving. I don't get it.

There is no "true" initiation in my opinion, the masonic light (which beyond its meaning in the ritual, also signifies knowledge to me) offered by masonry is free to any. Masonry is one way to seek the light of knowledge, there are other ways for other people and other times.

The purpose of ritual is to impress upon you the meaning of the act. Sure, we could all sit around and listen to people lecture us in the lodge, and while it would communicate the knowledge, it would not impress upon anyone its importance. The ritual is not needed per say, but its the way we do it and its not trying to "dress up" anything.

You're right, Josh. It happened for me at age 29, due to my dedicated interaction with a very special group of people I met on the Web who knew what I was going through. I was an intense seeker, and I was already in the right headspace. For the better part of four days I was in Wonderland, and it changed my entire life.

I know that people have to arrive at the answers themselves in order to "own" them, but my goal was simply to say, "hey, there's something special here". I forgot that I had a process of resistance at first, too. It's all about identity. We know more on a subconscious level than we can integrate into our waking consciousness, and the first thing that happens is that we instinctively get our butts on our shoulders, in a subconscious effort to protect our identity. What we know. What we think we know. Most people would rather be threatened with a gun than make themselves vulnerable to something that they perceive as a threat to their very identity.

*Sigh*

[edit on 12-6-2008 by applebiter]

[edit on 12-6-2008 by applebiter]

reply to post by applebiter


Q. How did you know it to be a door, being hoodwinked?

A. By first meeting with resistance, afterward gaining admission.

So are you agreeing that overcoming the resistance makes the admission that much more significant?

Yes, you're right. I want to join the Masons. I know how to learn but hve no clue how to teach or guide. Is there a way, once inside, that I can get into this area?

reply to post by applebiter


The path is the individuals to take. If you're lucky, you may find a mentor who can answer questions, but most likely only insomuch as it applied to his own journey. Your challenges will be your own, and only you know how to overcome them. Just know you'll have support should you stumble along the way.

Originally posted by NGC2736


And before you ask, I AM NOT a mason. They dislike me as much as the anti-mason crowd.

Hey man! I don't dislike you!

Here is my take on Freemasonry. I am not a mason although supposedly my great grandfather was a 32nd degree mason. First- as with any organized group there are inherently going to be people who will abuse power-that is a basic yin and yang principle you can't have good without bad. Can anyone say that any organization is without some sort of corruption on any level? I highly doubt it, that is a whole other subject though.
As an example let me point out an obvious symbol that everyone is aware of that has it's origins in freemasonry. Where I live, painted on either side of a police car is a star (a seven pointed one to be exact), now, when the tentacles of any organization regardless of any direct or indirect involvement, have spread as far as having a police force (not to mention one that has guns) it goes without saying that people are going to feel-to quote a post on this site "under duress". IMHO

reply to post by applebiter


Hi apple:

I'm interested in the dynamics of power and secret societies. Maybe someone can shed some light on the issue.

The rise of a structured secret society that is used for subversive means quite honestly depends on the political situation of the age.

For instance, Freemasonry, if you follow the belief it arose as a society of equality in Great Britain during times of religious persecution, sponsored by enlightenment ideologies, arose more as an equalizer then a secret society. It became secret because of persecution on it, because it defied the norms.. secret yet not secret, the only real secret was membership because to be discovered you risked social outcasting.

Then in America and quite possibly in France Masonry was used as a subversive tool to assist in the organization of a revolution. I don't believe Freemasonry it's self moved towards revolution, but rather members who happened to believe in enlightenment ideas formed inside the safety net of secrecy Masonry provided, and thus it was perfect to plan a war and the layout of the constitution we all hold dear.

However, it can be said that it didn't matter whether or not Freemasonry was used by the war planners and philosophical leaders of the age because either way, it would have been done in secrecy. It wouldn't make sense to plot against a world power in the open, would it?

If you look at the 20th Century's most despotic political movements, you will find them, in the Western world, all taking a similar first step in expelling academics, intellectuals, Jews, and Freemasons.

Several very good explanations. First and foremost it is very important that liberalized ideas in any dictatorship are eliminated. An easy way to do that is target structured groups. Freemasonry is a beacon of liberty, freedom and just ideas .. which is why it is constantly targeted. Intellectuals tend to hold ideas quite similar to Freemasonry, and also liberal ideas. The USSR built a city of intellectuals, they intended this city to be the jewel of Mother Russia.. a collection of genius Slavs to rival the West.

Except after they built the city, put in the students and the teachers.. it all went to hell in a hand basket. The USSR learned a quick lesson. Intellectuals in large quantities and in close proximity spread ideas like wild fire.. and the city lost it's purpose and few supported Mother Russia in the end. In fact, they leaned towards Democracy.

Ideas are the worst enemy of ANY ruler, benevolent or not.

Looking at Nazi Germany in particular, though, we can see that a fraternity related to the Freemasons, the Thule occult lodge, actually exploited and groomed Adolf Hitler to become what he became. What is the nature of the relationship between these lodges apart from shared membership?

Hitler was a good leader. He may not have been a good man, but honestly good leaders are rarely good men. Hitler was also an amazing public speaker. What "groomed" Hitler was speaking in front of Unionist who shared his ideas .. he was a very, very well spoken man, and quickly built a support base which spread through out the troubled German community..

No lodge, no secret society, no specific idea groomed Hitler. Great men are born into this world, not made, and Hitler was destined to be what he was and nothing would have stopped it.

it seems to me that people who are not Freemasons have a sort of schizophrenic attitude about them.

There are two groups of Anti Freemasons. The first group is highly uneducated.. very very narrow minded and honestly simplistic.. their mind set is set in stone and will not very.. bigotry and wild ideas fuel their hatred.. The second group are intellectual questioners.. anything not completely open, explained and fully revealed is suspicious and to be questioned. This of course is a form of narrow minded ignorance, but no where near as bad as the first group. Questioning authority, and other significant institutions is a very good thing, however some times it is misplaced and aimed at the innocent.

People are attracted to secret societies either because they think they have the knowledge they seek, or because they are a back door into secret power.

All secret societies are formed around SOMETHING .. Doesn't matter what it is, but it relates to a specific idea. Idea's can be dangerous, and thus so can secret societies (the KKK for example is a semi secret society) but they can also be genuine and good hearted ideas, such as Freemasonry. I would not say that people are attracted to power, but rather the very specific ideas the society represents. Power is formulated from ideas, movements based around these ideas, and so it is quite plausible that to join a society for philosophical means can translate back into power over people, or institutions.

I think maybe that the lodge is there to help you amplify what you already are, so that you might be of service in some capacity to a greater work to which most Masons are not privy.

It's not impossible. In fact, it has happened before. However in all known instances, the singular lodge generates it's own ideas and go rouge against standard Freemasonry. The other lodges may not be privy to the politics of the rouge lodge, but that is only because the rouge lodge is no longer operating as Freemasonry but rather an organization unto it's self. Think of them like Cancer cells.. they go undetected, then wreck havoc.. but it has nothing to do with the body, it's an alien entity, and once found out, needs to be cut away.

Freemasonry and any society like it is not perfect, it can be infected and we have to rely on the systems of checks and balances we put in place to ensure the Body of Freemasonry remains "cancer free."

"....their mind set is set in stone and will not very...."

LOL that was funny.

reply to post by liamoohay


The seven pointed star does not "originate" in Freemasonry. The ONLY pointed star used is an upside down star used in the Eastern Star.

Which is not Freemasonry, but a group that admitts Freemasons...

That is important to understand.

And the star / shield is not a new symbol, and has been used by police long before the Eastern Star was created.