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Revelations and Free Will

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posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 01:17 PM
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ok, short topic post without really any biblical quoting, as i don't think we really need anymore posts from the book of revelations in this forum.

however, i was thinking about something interesting

how can the prophecies in the book of revelation ever come to pass if we have free will?




posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 02:22 PM
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i dont see why not.

alot of the scriptures do not mention specific people.

for example the great multitude. it says basically that a large group will wash in the blood of the lamb (put faith in the jesus and live according to his commandments), they will survive through the tribulation. drink the the water of life.

its not very specific. anyone can predict that there would be people faithful, god would know that better than us.

the 144,000 is a specific number. but that too isnt impossible because he could pick them from the great multitude

revelations is the grand picture, not pictures individually so i dont see it conflicting with free will.

(btw, i think this the quoting scripture for a topic like this is inevitable. its bound to happen)



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 07:24 PM
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you are a wise one Miriam... what she said is true.. I have nothing esle to add except that Omnipotence doesn't mean freewill is taken away...

peace

[edit on 9-6-2008 by JesusisTruth]



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 02:42 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ok, short topic post without really any biblical quoting, as i don't think we really need anymore posts from the book of revelations in this forum.

however, i was thinking about something interesting

how can the prophecies in the book of revelation ever come to pass if we have free will?


It can’t, as many other things in the Bible free will is entirely contradictory to the notion of having certain future events already be set in stone. This would, at best, limit our free will.

Of course, Christian’s won’t follow this logic because they are unwilling to accept a premise if it goes against their precious fraud of a Bible.



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 03:21 AM
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Originally posted by AveIMil
Of course, Christian’s won’t follow this logic because they are unwilling to accept a premise if it goes against their precious fraud of a Bible.


i predict, that in the future you will eat... then after you will use the toilet, and after that you will go to sleep.

there are 2 possible reasons i can make that prediction and be sure it will be fulfilled.

- i am wise enough to be able to "predict" your actions for the day, using what knowledge i have of human thinking, patterns, motives etc. i can come to a general but accurate rediction.

- the second is if i was actually able to see what the future would be, after seeing then i predict. (free will first then prediction)

who's to say god cant do both?

will my prediction be right? yes it simple and general, but it illustrates how prophecy could be done without treading on free will.

jesus talked about the signs of his presence in very general terms, but specific enough for us to realize what was happening. kingdom will rise against kingdom and nation against nation. the 20th century was unique in that it had 2 world wars, i think the amount of days that the world didnt have a war somewhere in it from 1914 onward amounts to less than a month.

now is god treading on free will to furfill that or did he just predict human nature?



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


but it still rests on the acceptance of quite a few people...so, in theory, enough people would be able to simply say "no" to god and/or enough people would stop the events that lead up to the apocalypse

just like, in theory, mary could've told god that she didn't want to give birth to the messiah



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Minor correction to your OP, MIMS. It's not "revelations" (plural), as in revealing prophecies, but revelation (singular), as in the revealing of Yeshua the Messiah by signs (that which signifies).

The book of Revelation is the revealing of Christ by signs. I don't think we can take much from it, if anything, literally.

To answer your question: Say we were playing an interactive video game; one that I designed. I could say with certainty that x number of aliens will be vaporized, x number of points will have to be racked up, etc. because that is the nature of the game I designed. The only way I could restrict your free will in that game is if I a) never designed or released it or b) never let you play it.

Of course, life isn't a game but, I know you're young so I'm trying to give an example you can relate to.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by miriam0566
 


but it still rests on the acceptance of quite a few people...so, in theory, enough people would be able to simply say "no" to god and/or enough people would stop the events that lead up to the apocalypse

just like, in theory, mary could've told god that she didn't want to give birth to the messiah


and you would be right

mary could have said no, but god knew that she would say yes.

like i said, there is prediction, but some of it might be god telling us what the future looks like.

for example, towards the end of revelation, it says after the thousand year reign, satan is released to test us one final time. it says that people will side with him and desribes it as the "sands of the sea"

ok so god does not give us a specific number, he wants us to understand that its a choice not destiny

but its still a large number. maybe god played out the senario in his head and thats what he saw, like a chess player thinks moves ahead just the ability is multiplied by infinity



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


It is because of free will that they do...

Untrained minds and bodies which is a part of eternal infancy, act in infancy. Which, as we learn by the example of children, a portion of the training and maturity is learning boundaries, our limits, our ability, obedience, etc.

This small portion of our existence, the potential to live to old age, is our infancy in our becoming. And within the choices of our infancy, revelation will be. It is perfect too.
Because through the process and end result of revelations we will become more aware than we would have otherwise. This is for our betterment...

The key is not viewing revelations in fear, but seeing it from a higher point of view. Seek understanding in love and then you will understand that the fire baptism which is judgement day, the two judgements happen literally at the same time, and according to that which you allowed yourself to learn through free will on earth, you will perceive either as heaven or hell. And hell ONLY exists for those whom have used their free will to perceive nothing more than the physical and not the spiritual. Yet even them who enter this state will become more than those who choose heaven now, as through the experience of hell when the next eternities come and they are given another opportunity, because of this choice to experience the depths of hell they will be rewarded equal knowledge in the heavens if they choose to use their free will to perceive the heaven.

It Is All Perfect...

love always



posted on Jun, 15 2008 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



the warning god speaks of in scripture to the 7 churches of the earth is to the church of Atheism. Yes, it is a church because it is a moderately large body of acceptance in a specific thought. He does this warning because of His Love for you and the lack of love atheists have for themselves during confusion.

The confusion being one that Atheism believes in eternal death after this life, where in you were created to live forever. All eternities...

If you use your free will to create this reality of eternal death He can not bring you back because it is YOUR choice. Spiritual death is it. People will survive hell (it will take a long time eternally speaking, considering there is more than one eternity and an eternity will need to pass before they can be given another opportunity according to Gods Law), people will survive and learn from their sin, but to believe you are no longer there is nothing He can do as it is your will and your choice. There by it is Gods will and Gods law of Love to speak warning of such to you... Don't do it, because there is so much in the eternities that need you that your mind, especially right now, could not fathom. So much to come through YOU. You have love in your heart obviously. Why not use it for eternal purpose. You can not nor will you stop what is it to come, no matter how much you wish it to be differently. Thank you for that desire, but hold on to it so that you can really start to use it... In the Forevers... And choose to wait the storm so that you may learn how to use that love inside of you for the change you wish you could do now. i promise you. It Will Come. Someday if you hold on you will create according to your desire.

All the prophecies will come true, no matter how much we who love others do not wish it so. Jump aboard the ride that will take you to the other side in order to experience peace.

Will You Live Or Not.

LOVE ALWAYS FIRST.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 04:33 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
i predict, that in the future you will eat... then after you will use the toilet, and after that you will go to sleep.

there are 2 possible reasons i can make that prediction and be sure it will be fulfilled.

- i am wise enough to be able to "predict" your actions for the day, using what knowledge i have of human thinking, patterns, motives etc. i can come to a general but accurate rediction.

- the second is if i was actually able to see what the future would be, after seeing then i predict. (free will first then prediction)

who's to say god cant do both?

will my prediction be right? yes it simple and general, but it illustrates how prophecy could be done without treading on free will.


No, I’m sorry my soon-to-be-atheist friend but your analogy fails miserably. Your prediction that I will in the future eat and hence spend my precious time on the can is entirely based on one a natural observable human pattern and two probability. Probability plays a major role here, as should I die in a car accident within one hour from now your prediction will not hold true.

See, your entire argument flies in the face of what you actually believe. God can’t be omniscient and at the same time preserve our free will by simply predicting what will happen in the same manner us humans do, this contradicts the omniscient property of said God. Get it?

Are you suggesting that the prophecies predicted by Jesus, God or the Bible can somehow be invalidated by man’s free will?



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by AveIMil

Originally posted by miriam0566
"i predict, that in the future you will eat... then after you will use the toilet, and after that you will go to sleep.

there are 2 possible reasons i can make that prediction and be sure it will be fulfilled.

- i am wise enough to be able to "predict" your actions for the day, using what knowledge i have of human thinking, patterns, motives etc. i can come to a general but accurate rediction.

- the second is if i was actually able to see what the future would be, after seeing then i predict. (free will first then prediction)

who's to say god cant do both?

will my prediction be right? yes it simple and general, but it illustrates how prophecy could be done without treading on free will.
"

"No, I’m sorry my soon-to-be-atheist friend but your analogy fails miserably. Your prediction that I will in the future eat and hence spend my precious time on the can is entirely based on one a natural observable human pattern and two probability. Probability plays a major role here, as should I die in a car accident within one hour from now your prediction will not hold true."

oooouuueee, yikes dude. You are talking to another christian. Take it easy! You are kinda supporting atheism in it's atheism as you reaffirm through action the division of the spirit of contention that is within christianity. And it is a question as to why people are turning away? If i didn't have a personal relationship with God and was in confusion, i would turn away too.

"See, your entire argument flies in the face of what you actually believe. God can’t be omniscient and at the same time preserve our free will by simply predicting what will happen in the same manner us humans do, this contradicts the omniscient property of said God. Get it?"

You may stop to consider that she actually may have a higher developed understanding of Gods working than your own, within her human capability. And in her way she is working further into her already developed knowledge in order that she may stretch, learn and grow through verbally communicating what she already knows and what she is stretching to understand. She is On The Right Track! God does as she has, only through a higher level of awareness... And she is stretching further to be in His likeness... which is what we are meant to do.

"Are you suggesting that the prophecies predicted by Jesus, God or the Bible can somehow be invalidated by man’s free will?"

She isn't suggesting that at all. She understands that because of mans free will and Gods ability to read and understand human nature, it is the reason the prophecies will come true. And this (the prophecies) will not be changed as no one person may change the free will of the multitude; until of course the complete return of the messiah.

Down boy, Down!

Take a step back and learn, to catch up.

Christian reprimanding in Love.

Love always





posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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the thing that is interesting i find is that we assume that free will, and god's ability to predict our free will are exclusive. not only would god know how we are made, but throw in the fact that he has seen you your whole life. the ups, the downs, everything. chances are, he understands us more then we do.

my friend sarah. i have known her for years. I know if i bring home mcdonalds, she will get mad at me. she feels very strongly about it. i know that she will say something even if just a hint that she is upset, because she worries about my health, and she wants me to live the longest i can.

now i come home with mcdonalds and sure enough she says "why didnt you call me, i wouldve cooked something" in an irritated tone. i was right, i predicted exactly. but that doesnt change the fact that she is mad at me of her own free will. nothing is forcing her to be irratated. she makes herself mad based upon rules she sets out for herself.

- she hates mcdonald's
- she knows is not healthy
- she knows i get sick alot
- she worries for my health

these guides or rules she imposed on her self, noone did it for her.

god predicts that a majority of man in the last days will reject him.

he knows

- humans are sinful
- they have a tendency to be selfish
- they usually believe what they want to believe

its not that hard to see that a god with infinite memory and infinite thinking ability would be able to predict whether a majority will do something or not....

and no, it doesnt step on god's omniscience. god would know all possibilites of every decision AS WELL AS the which choice we make.

just because god knows the choice we will make doesnt mean that the choice isnt ours.



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how can the prophecies in the book of revelation ever come to pass if we have free will?


It wouldn't if we had free-will. I don't even want to get into the free-will/destiny argument because it's like beating a dead horse, but that's just my belief on it. Forget about the many interpretations of Revelations, the most commonly agreed upon aspect of the book is that there will be a change for the better for mankind that is divinely sent. If there were free-will we would be able to stop it.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by ben91069]



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


personally i dont belive we have free will

prophecy is basically Gods will IMHO

davi



posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 12:58 PM
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Dr.William Lane Craig explains in a very understandable way that God's foreknowledge of events does not equate to God causing those events to happen; ie, Just because God knows you are going to behave in a certain way, or act in a particular way, does not elimiate either your choice in the matter or your responsibilty for your actions.





posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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hello there

he is wrong, Gods will is sovereign

there is no free will IMHO

Proverbs 16:4 KJV

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

1 Peter 2:8 KJV

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.



David

[edit on 16/6/2008 by drevill]



posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by lightseeker
Dr.William Lane Craig explains in a very understandable way that God's foreknowledge of events does not equate to God causing those events to happen; ie, Just because God knows you are going to behave in a certain way, or act in a particular way, does not elimiate either your choice in the matter or your responsibilty for your actions.




Thanks for that video, it was a steaming pile of arse, but nonetheless, thanks. However, the explanation offered in this video also contradicts the properties of the God from the Bible. This foreknowledge system would render God a helpless observer.

God is infallible; therefore his foreknowledge cannot be wrong. Hence God cannot interact with the world and change it as that would result in changing his original foreknowledge making it wrong, which contradicts the first statement.

Furthermore it means that God is also limited by human free will. Any plans that he wishes that should come to pass rests solely on man’s free will. He cannot interact with the world as that would interfere with our free will.

The only way God could work around this problem would have been to predetermine us to act in a certain way using our free will to fit his divine plan. Down to the smallest detail God could program us, so to speak, to make use of our free will in a certain way. This, of course, would ultimately mean that our free will was nothing but a mere illusion.

Sorry Sally, you can’t reconcile the notion of free will with an omniscient and omnipotent God. If God was the first source, the first cause, the Creator, the alpha and the omega, he created everything, including the notion of free will. This means that God created the world exactly the way he intended it to be. Evil originated from God.

Something cannot come from nothing. Evil cannot come from any other source than God if God is the ultimate creator.



posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 03:10 AM
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you keep making absolute statements and then keep drawing conclusions from them.


Originally posted by AveIMil
This foreknowledge system would render God a helpless observer.



God is infallible; therefore his foreknowledge cannot be wrong. Hence God cannot interact with the world and change it as that would result in changing his original foreknowledge making it wrong,



Furthermore it means that God is also limited by human free will. Any plans that he wishes that should come to pass rests solely on man’s free will. He cannot interact with the world as that would interfere with our free will.


why wouldnt god's will be included into the equation? your making this blind statement that he cant interact, and there is nothing to say he cant.


Sorry Sally, you can’t reconcile the notion of free will with an omniscient and omnipotent God. If God was the first source, the first cause, the Creator, the alpha and the omega, he created everything, including the notion of free will. This means that God created the world exactly the way he intended it to be. Evil originated from God.


so, b came from a and therefore l = m. thats what your saying.

free will doesnt = evil.

evil = lack of love.

if someone decides to turn away from god, you cannot say that it is god's fault.

its like saying "i crashed my car, and its the dmv's fault for giving me the lisense". now thats just plain unreasonable



posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 04:34 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566why wouldnt god's will be included into the equation? your making this blind statement that he cant interact, and there is nothing to say he cant.


Because by interacting with the creation God interferes with our free will, and thus he changes his original foreknowledge that would have been based upon our free will. This means he did not have the correct foreknowledge in the first place, therefore he is not infallible.

When God prophecies about a future event that will come to pass he ultimately limits our free will. No amount of free choices can alter the future to happen any other way than what is within the accepted parameters of God. No matter which way you look at it our free will is limited by such knowledge.

Free will cannot exist if the future has already been determined. Free will is then no more than an illusion. Free will is contradictory to the omniscient nature of God.

Now, if God was not omniscient, it would not be a problem. As God would simply create us with our free will and then observe and watch how things turned out. This would not constitute a logical fallacy.


[edit on 17-6-2008 by AveIMil]



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