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UK society 'demonising' children

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posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 04:37 PM
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I'm not reading through all the posts purely because I have this to say and regardless of what has been posted before this post will not sway my belief.

About 20yrs back UK politics decided to stop schools handing out the cane etc as punishment, around the same time parents who gave their children a clip round the ear became the criminals and not the home "law givers".

Add to this the once friendly "bobby" could not only offer a friendly bit of advice or a clip round the ear "or I will tell your parents" suddenly was not allowed to enforce a decent bit of common sense that the schools or parents couldn't do.

The teens today, who are under so much pressure, "welcome to the real world" need to be given so much room to do as they please without worry of getting the cane from school, a clout from their parents and lets not joke about it, the Police might aswell talk to a brick wall for all they can do now, oh is that a knife, well on your way and don't do it again.

Me, I would give two chances, once is a mistake, the second well congrats you have just joined the armed forces, no need to jail anyone but at the same time would hopefully by been in the forces would instil respect and common sense and help them understand the big wide world and what it means to be responsible.

Before the lightweight pc brigade jump on my post, I have no interest in your nanny pandering ideals.

Wolfie



[edit on 9/6/08 by Wolfie_UK]




posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by bodrul
reply to post by Extralien
 


its not society thats the problem
its the bloody goverment gone all PC
they say parents dont do enough but if parents do anything they can be locked up. Kids need to be disaplined.

I agree with you. Its damned if you do and damned if you don't do anything with your children. The system has to change to allow parents to do something about their children like they did in the old days. Gee . Makes me feel old.



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by cosmicstorm
Another thing my other sister told me was that in her school, people 'know' that if your gonna stab someone, do it in the leg, you'll get less 'time'.... or none at all...


This is totally disgusting,the fact that kids are contemplating just how far they can push the law..

Police are too busy tackling soft crimes and making up their numbers with easy targets.
They're a complete waste of space..hiding in their squad cars hunting down traffic offences in packs instead of fulfilling their job description.

We had a healthy respect for the law back when they'd give you a whack around the ear for trespassing in building areas etc.. and that was harmless 'playing around'..not vandalism.

We also had a respect for the 'mafia' in the area too..when fights were with hands..not knives..
I'm pretty sure if it came down to using weapons,they wouldn't be going for 'wounding' because it would be a softer sentence..
That's a very dangerous 'game' to play..
You either mean it or you don't.. no half way..



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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It's a common misconception that you cannot discipline your kids in the UK. However, you are quite within your rights to "reasonably chastise" your child, in other words, whack them on the arse! Tis what I've been doing to my daughter for some years now. In fact, the very threat of a sacked bottom is enough to immediately and without question curb any bad behaviour.

Some people might say it is abuse, but to be honest, those very same people probably don't have kids or if they do, they are probably gobby little buggers who don't respect their parents.

I am fairly lenient on my sprog, I allow her considerable personal freedom to make her own choices (and mistakes), but if she ever steps out of line I have put the fear of God into her about what will happen. As it stands, she is very well mannered, superbly behaved and well spoken.

Bottom line is, without the fear of what will happen should you step out of line, then there might as well not be any rules at all.

I can sum it up with what my dad once told me after I had misbehaved when I was 14...

"I don't care if you don't love me, or even like me, but you'll bloody well respect me"

And I did.... Problem is, so many people are hung up on buying their kids love, keeping up with the Jone's and worrying whether they like them or not, they dare not do anything to jeapordise it, leading to spoilt, horrible little buggers running amok.



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
It's a common misconception that you cannot discipline your kids in the UK. However, you are quite within your rights to "reasonably chastise" your child, in other words, whack them on the arse! Tis what I've been doing to my daughter for some years now. In fact, the very threat of a sacked bottom is enough to immediately and without question curb any bad behaviour.

Some people might say it is abuse, but to be honest, those very same people probably don't have kids or if they do, they are probably gobby little buggers who don't respect their parents.

I am fairly lenient on my sprog, I allow her considerable personal freedom to make her own choices (and mistakes), but if she ever steps out of line I have put the fear of God into her about what will happen. As it stands, she is very well mannered, superbly behaved and well spoken.

Bottom line is, without the fear of what will happen should you step out of line, then there might as well not be any rules at all.

I can sum it up with what my dad once told me after I had misbehaved when I was 14...

"I don't care if you don't love me, or even like me, but you'll bloody well respect me"

And I did.... Problem is, so many people are hung up on buying their kids love, keeping up with the Jone's and worrying whether they like them or not, they dare not do anything to jeapordise it, leading to spoilt, horrible little buggers running amok.


A star from me, You and I would agree on a great number of things when as it concerns proper parenting.
Now if only we could get the rest of the civilized world to agree.
If I understand correctly it is either sweeden or switzerland that is real quick to take your children away if you either
1. Spank them
2. Let them get fat.
3. Allow them to do what they want.
Now to me this sounds like a no win situation. You cant raise them if you let them do what they want but you cant use any of the effective tools to stop them from doing it.



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 10:33 PM
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How very strange, i was reading this thread when a friend texted me, quite distressed and very upset abut something that's happening as i type this.

She awoke to find her fence panels being lifted, the 4 or 5 kids next door thought it would be funny to try and kill her pet chickens. She raced downstairs to chase them off and they droppped the panel, worst of all she heard their mother next door telling them my friend was coming, seems she wanted the chickens dead as well. The kids were laughing apparently, they eve shouted "the chickens are dead" as my friend entered the garden. Obviously this has upset and shacken her, especially as my friend isn't in the best of health.

Thankfully the chickens are fine but she's now staying up the rest of the night, quite distressed and she isn't a healthy woman so this isn't doing her a lot of good. She called the police and was told they'll call tomorrow! Tomorrow when it's happening now for gods sake. So i'm staying up all night talking with her on msn to try and give some rather useless moral support.

These little thugs are only maybe 13-17 and they don't give a damn. These are the youths we are dealing with, they aren't all like it but their numbers are increasing and not only that but they seem to love violence. I know in the past we had skinheads and things but these youths are something else, they know they won't get into trouble, they know they'll be let off and they just love to hurt and intimidate others.

I'm tired of it, if i was in good health and able to work i'd be out of this country. If i can recover my health then i'll be gone, i've written to MP's, i've signed petitions i've done everything that a democratic person can. It's about time they realised something, it's mostly the parents fault, it's how they've raised their children. It's the government fault for not providing proper punishment in prisons, and it's societies fault as a whole for letting it get out of control.

Most people complain but take no action, no letters to MP's, no petitions signed, no public meetings attended.

The worst part of this all for me though is the idea of respect. These kids want respect, and if you even glance in their direction they take it as a challenge, like primitive beasts. They're all a bunch of absolute wimps though, they wouldn't dare do something without one of their friends behind them, strength in numbers is what they seem to rely on. They want respect without having earnt it, they try and get it through fear and intimidation and it has to stop.

Bring back the legal right for parents to hit kids is a start but also maybe make the parents responsible for the childs behavior if they're repeat offenders. That way the parents might take some interest in their kids lives, afterall there is no way in hell my parents would have let me be out on the streets at 10pm, i'd have been rounded up, shouted at, grounded and punished in all ways they could find. I wasn't scared of my parents but i respected them and so obeyed their rules.

It starts from an early age and lots of parents don't seem to care anymore. Council estates are quite often hotbeds of this activity, the situation i mentioned above is because my friend has several council properties around her and it's the kids from there that are doing it. Maybe people should have their council houses taken from them if they can't keep their kids under control, maybe moved into one area with all the other scum.

Sick to death of it, i hate what our country has become, no respect, no punishment, no hope.



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 10:44 PM
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It looks like one of the illuminati's many ways of "depopulation" lol. This is sad, there are many great innocent minds in the UK.



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 10:47 PM
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The only way this problem can seriously be put right is to educate and also punish the parents!

Parents MUST be made responsible for what THEIR offspring bring to this world.

How many kids would act as they do if they knew 'mum or dad" was going to be punished too?

I imagine it's the parents who "got away with it" as a kid that let their kids do the same.

So not just the kids fault but they're the ones who get punished by "big brother".

Punish the parents too!



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 10:52 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Nice work stu it sounds like youre' an excellent father if you've raised a child that's polite and well behaved, ia gree that smacking is a good tool for parents. I'm not saying it should be used al lthe time because chavy parents often do this, overuse it and the kids then think violence is the key, it needs to be used as the last resort but it does need to be available!

My parents raised me and my brother with a very simple understanding from when we were maybe 5 years old and could understand it. If the police ever turned up at the door because of something we had done then we were out the house. I knw that seems harsh but they really meant it and it kept us in line. I can count on one hand the amount of times i was smacked simply because i knew the system. I behaved, if i didn't i got told off, if i kept misbehaving i got shouted at and if i kept on i got a smack.

Other punishments were meated out, we didn't have many toys so when one was taken off of us it was a big thing. When they grounded us we had to stay in our rooms, and unlike teh modern kids who stick fingers up at their parents and walk out of the house, if we'd have done that there would have been hell to pay.

The parents are where we need to start, then the prisons.


reply to post by nerbot
 


That's what i was saying before in my last post. If kids misbehave more than once then start making the parents responsible, dock benefits, make them do community work together, if they havea council house then threaten them with eviction unless they behave etc.

[edit on 9-6-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 03:52 AM
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I see from the above posts that the tradition of 'creating' problem children is secure with all those that promote beating-smacking or whatever word you care to use to justify what can only be called - violence towards another. If you can't teach without violence then don't have children, simple.

Discipline with violence only enforces the lesson that this it is OK to inflict violence thus the cycle has started and will continue with all the implications this has for society.

This view will not sit well with most because most participate in this form of discipline with violence and then wonder what has created violent people?



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by mlmijyd
Discipline with violence only enforces the lesson that this it is OK to inflict violence thus the cycle has started and will continue with all the implications this has for society.


We have to look at empirical evidence here... The UK had decades of history where "discipline with violence" was socially acceptable and throughout all that time we did not experience the level of youth crime that we see today.

Certainly, we have seen a massive decline within the last 10 years. Even during the Thatcher era, with mass unemployment and the regular collisions between Police and Miners we did not see the level of youth crime that we have today.

Unfortunately, society is largely devoid of ideals nowadays. The Government preaches materialist motivation, we are all good consumers. The youths in question want to climb onto the bandwagon and will "take" rather than "buy". The respect for *society* has gone and our children are infected by our own blind ambition as we are drugged on Government propaganda.

The bad news? It will get worse. However, it can change for the good. The reforms that strove to create an educated youth worked in the past and they could work again, but with a strong Government willing to do the right thing.

The fact is, there is an underclass of society, the "untermenschen", society has to rid itself of this class through education, discipline and and simply making the point that it is not acceptable - using direct action if necessary.



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 06:43 AM
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posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 06:54 AM
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reply to post by sacerd
 



If I understand correctly it is either sweeden or switzerland that is real quick to take your children away if you either


I don't know about Sweden, but it isn't like this in Switzerland. I can tell you that Swiss children and teenagers are VERY well behaved and respectful to adults. Why? One big reason is that children are encouraged to be children for as long as possible.

Of course there are rebellious teenagers! That's human nature - but they don't feel the need to express their rebellion by acting like delinquents. You'll see plenty of pink haired, pierced, mohawked, youths in the cities and rural areas a like, but you won't as a general rule see them binge drinking and acting like some of the scum in the UK.

I remember when I first arrived in Switzerland- I was carrying some groceries home one day when two youths approached. They startled me as they both had the Gangster look, to be honest I had a moment of fear. They kindly offered to carry my load of groceries home for me..I was suspicious to say the least - but instead of robbing me, or worse they actually carried my groceries home for me. Then when I tried to pay them five franks they loudly protested that it wasn't needed and they were just glad to help. Believe me, if these same youths were to approach in the US or the UK you'd be thinking the worst.

Children in Switzerland are taught to respect adults and to display good manners from an early age. No parent wants to be known as the parent of a brat - Here in the UK and in the US parents are mostly busy working 60 hours a week to pay their mortgage, pay the ever increasing fuel and food bills, and keep up with the Joneses - They don't have time to raise quality people..

The scary part is..these same trouble making losers are going to parents soon...

[edit on 10-6-2008 by Merigold]



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by Britguy
I hear these kids using the word "Respect" all the time but with little or no realisation that respect is a two way street.



That's because often when people are talking of respect they are speaking of the positive aspects (i.e; them respecting me) while being insincere over the negative aspects (i.e; me respecting them) - people are more willing to take than to give, essentially.

I think that there is a certain... mentality that has been instilled in the youth of today, and i'm strongly considering whether or not to blame the glorification of materialism (and everything that entails) for this.

Kids these days don't see a society of people looking out for one another, they see a society of people looking out for themselves.


Whether or not anyone in a position of power is going to realise this any time soon is improbable, considering the nature of power and how one must strive to beat down all other competition to succeed.

Perhaps kids these days are simply less willing to play the rat-race than people were 20 years ago.

As for the OP's original point, over whether or not UK society is demonising children, i'd have to agree.

Humanity has a history of demonising that which it does not understand.


[edit on 10-6-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 07:27 AM
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Originally posted by SugarCube

Originally posted by mlmijyd
Discipline with violence only enforces the lesson that this it is OK to inflict violence thus the cycle has started and will continue with all the implications this has for society.


We have to look at empirical evidence here... The UK had decades of history where "discipline with violence" was socially acceptable and throughout all that time we did not experience the level of youth crime that we see today.

Certainly, we have seen a massive decline within the last 10 years. Even during the Thatcher era, with mass unemployment and the regular collisions between Police and Miners we did not see the level of youth crime that we have today.

Unfortunately, society is largely devoid of ideals nowadays. The Government preaches materialist motivation, we are all good consumers. The youths in question want to climb onto the bandwagon and will "take" rather than "buy". The respect for *society* has gone and our children are infected by our own blind ambition as we are drugged on Government propaganda.

The bad news? It will get worse. However, it can change for the good. The reforms that strove to create an educated youth worked in the past and they could work again, but with a strong Government willing to do the right thing.

The fact is, there is an underclass of society, the "untermenschen", society has to rid itself of this class through education, discipline and and simply making the point that it is not acceptable - using direct action if necessary.


I agree with some of what you say but I disagree that the ‘better’ behaved children/youths had nothing to do with violence driven discipline. There have always been (in my words) bad parents but I think that what was unacceptable say 30years ago is acceptable today and is encouraged by government policy. But, never ever in my world is the beating of your children acceptable or a method of discipline for children.

I completely agree that children in the UK are not allowed to be children for as long as they need i.e. 16yrs may be or even 17yrs if that individual needs it!

I’d personally do away with primary school and put the emphasis back on the parents to educate (and I don’t mean algebra just fun learning at the pace that the child wants to learn) up to about 13-14yrs and then offer academic schools that actually teach skills. Most parents with these ‘problem’ children treat schools as a crèche. Its all too easy to pass this responsibility to teachers and the government would have to provide the funding (may be axe all nuclear-trident projects, stop funding terror raids in other countries etc!) to support these families but the responsibility is 100% the parents. If parents can’t provide this to their children then they shouldn’t be encouraged to have any. But the whole of the UK governed society is all about control and handing over your and your children’s lives to the state and therein lies one of its problems and a cause for some of our problems. Sometimes less is more!



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by mlmijyd
 


What an absolute load of liberal dross, and i'm sorry to not show respect for your views but they're essentially rubbish. I was raised very well, i've never commited any crime, i'm well behaved, liked and respected. When i was growing up people always commented on the good behavior of me and my brother. The reason for this is because when we knew that if we really misbehaved there would be a smack coming. Smacking works as long as it isn't overused.

The rest of your post i agree with, parents take no responsibility for their childrens behavior. If i'd misbehaved in such a way my parents would have felt like the whole neighborhood was judging them and made sure we acted right. It's abotu time we made parents accountable.

[edit on 10-6-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 10:31 AM
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Two words - "Gangsta" "Rap"

With terrible timing, the popularity of "gangsta rap" culture has converged with an excessively liberal, PC society. Additionally - and this may be a little controversial - multiculturalism has caused a generation of lost youths whose parents left their culture and values back in their country of origin. On the flipside of the coin, native British youths have been taught that Britain doesn't belong to them and are rootless. They have nothing to be proud of. Whereas in yesteryear a community would work together to ensure that the reputation of their British society is maintained, the British now don't even feel like this is their land - much less about defending its honour. Whereas communities once had a strong sense of commonality and a an adult would reprimand children he didn't even know, nowadays that same adult feels out of place speaking up - unsure if the misbehaving youth can even speak proper English.



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 10:36 AM
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reply to post by Cythraul
 


Hah, you speak of pride.

One can have pride in merely being human, did you not think that perhaps?

Pride only exists where there are those who can be seen as 'better' or 'worse' - it is nothing more than another box into which people put themselves.

If you want my advice, i think our time would be well spent discovering where exactly this idea that we have to be 'proud' comes from.



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 10:46 AM
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Well now a slightly different stance.

Do not put them in the armed forces, or if you do don't send them out. Firstly no person should be put in a situation like that if they didn't choose to go. Secondly I would not want to have my life in the hands of someone who was forced into the army.

Secondly a smack will go along way, I was smacked and it has taught me violence is wrong, it has not led to any sort of violence at all.



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by ZindoDoone
We used to have a 'mutual combat' law that allowed you to smack someone that is getting in your face. The lawyers got into the picture along with those who call them instead of taking they're own protection in they're own hands and that law went by the wayside.

I seem to recall something that might even make this into some kind of "social engineering conspiracy"...

...Oh, where is that thing?...Here it is: A Nation of Cowards.

...The advice not to resist a criminal assault and simply hand over the goods is founded on the notion that one's life is of incalculable value, and that no amount of property is worth it.

Put aside, for a moment, the outrageousness of the suggestion that a criminal who proffers lethal violence should be treated as if he has instituted a new social contract: "I will not hurt or kill you if you give me what I want." For years, feminists have labored to educate people that rape is not about sex, but about domination, degradation, and control. Evidently, someone needs to inform the law enforcement establishment and the media that kidnapping, robbery, carjacking, and assault are not about property.

Crime is not only a complete disavowal of the social contract, but also a commandeering of the victim's person and liberty. If the individual's dignity lies in the fact that he is a moral agent engaging in actions of his own will, in free exchange with others, then crime always violates the victim's dignity. It is, in fact, an act of enslavement. Your wallet, your purse, or your car may not be worth your life, but your dignity is; and if it is not worth fighting for, it can hardly be said to exist...

...A sermon given in Philadelphia in 1747 unequivocally equated the failure to defend oneself with suicide:
"He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself."


Basically, aren't the PTB trying to to make its Public lose all sense of defense for our own self-determination, for the sole purpose to let them promise to trade more "security for freedoms" & also reduce the risk that the public would get its collective backbone up for a rebellion?

Sounds like a psych-war through social engineering to me...And the only way the public can defeat it is to first be aware of it.




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