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NOBama Nation: 1.7 Trillon required for Universal Healthcare AND Global Poverty Act

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posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 12:43 AM
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so, id like to see some people chime in who actually have a universal healthcare plan in their country. doesnt canada have it? i know there are some canadians on here. Tell us how you feel about your program. and didnt mitt romney try something similar to this in his state? how did that turn out? I for one am against the plan myself but would like to become more educated on the subject so i can truely analyze if it would be beneficial or not.

also, if someone who really knows about these plans know how they get funded, do tell. a previous poster said that taxes would not be raised but i find this hard to believe.

www.censusscope.org...

the above link is a breakdown of the US population by age. The total population is 281,421,906. Of this figure 85,711,583 are below the age 15 and over the age of 70. thats roughly 30% of the US population (year 2000 stats, probably higher now) that is paying little to no taxes. That leaves the rest of the 70% not only paying for ourselves but paying for the additional 30% of the nation as well. at least with private coverage, if you have kids, you know your covering them and only them, not everyone elses kids as well.

I cant help but think that a universal healthcare program will end up just like social security. too many people, not enough money to go around.

Please tell me if im wrong. like i said earlier, i would like to learn more.

So many things seem like they would be effected by a plan like this if it were to happen. For example, what happens to medicaid? is there even a need for it anymore? What about all the people like myself who get health insurance provided for them from their employer at no cost. Is that going to be a benefit that i just lose and dont get compensated for by my employer? i doubt i would see a pay raise. And since we are talking about employers, are they going to be able to just pocket the billions of dollars that they will no longer have to pay to cover all of their employees?

will it cover more then private insurance does? id love to get lasik eye surgery but insurance doesnt cover it now, would it cover that? or for all you smokers out there, will it cover the cost of perscription drugs to help you quite, currently most dont.

ok i think im done, sorry about all the questions, but i think these are questions alot of people would like to see answered. If this can be put in place, with no increased taxes, same quality of service, with more things covered, it would be great. Unfortunately, i dont think that can happen.




[edit on 11-6-2008 by tdubz]




posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 05:55 AM
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Originally posted by jetxnet
The 1.7 million is derived from Obama's own Campaign site.

It is broken down policy by policy and tabulated across this policies on this site:

www.dontvoteobama.net...

This site has the breakdown and the cited sources going straight back to your favorite site, barackobama.com, on a policy by policy basis.

You mean your site don't you? Sorry but I don't have time to go through 130MB of information to figure out how you came up with it.

Please show how Obama's UHC, estimated to cost $65 billion a year turns into $874 billion. Is that over time? Then also show us how you came up with the $800 billion cost of the Global Poverty Act.

How bout I help you out. I did find a source that gives a cost for the GPA close to what you claim.


He said the legislation, if approved, dedicates 0.7 percent of the U.S. gross national product to foreign aid, which over 13 years he said would amount to $845 billion "over and above what the U.S. already spends."

Obama bill: $845 billion more for global poverty

Even coming from an unreliable source such as WorldNutDaily, it includes that this is what it would cost over 13 years.

Forgot to mention that part did you?

I say this must be your website because you seem to like to copy and paste from it as you did in this post, which is almost word for word the same list on that website. So is it your website? Or are you plagiarizing?

[edit on 6/11/2008 by Hal9000]



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 06:52 AM
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I haven't researched the various issues enough to have been a supporter of Obama but seeing this thread has pushed me over the edge. If Obama's willing to help provide Universal Health care along with the Global Poverty Act then I'm a supporter. Obama's the President we and the World needs after Bush leaves office.

The Bush regime has done more harm to this nation and the people of the World than any other President in history. We need a President that can reverse some of the damage he's done.

Bush isn't loyal to the American people in general. He's loyal to Corporations. We need a President that understands the what the words "We The People" means.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:05 PM
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posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by jetxnet
 


Micheal Moore is a blazing moron at best.He only makes these films so he can get in the spot light and to make money.Nothing more.

By the way.Thanks for all your hard work jetxnet.Well said man.If anyone supports a piss poor universal health plan that is doomed to fail then you are nuts.Granted I get free healthcare from the military and healthcare from my trucking job but still.I would not and will not have ANYTHING to do with it!



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by Hal9000
Please show how Obama's UHC, estimated to cost $65 billion a year turns into $874 billion. Is that over time? Then also show us how you came up with the $800 billion cost of the Global Poverty Act.


Is that really the speculated cost for UHC?? Doesn't that sound just a tad low to you? Do the math, that's only $216 a person...for an entire year of health care? Was the person who came up with this dollar figure on drugs or something?

If $65 billion is really the figure being throw around we need to rethink this entire thing. I think 10x that might be accurate and that's a conservative estimate.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by BlueTriangle

Originally posted by Hal9000
Please show how Obama's UHC, estimated to cost $65 billion a year turns into $874 billion. Is that over time? Then also show us how you came up with the $800 billion cost of the Global Poverty Act.


Is that really the speculated cost for UHC?? Doesn't that sound just a tad low to you? Do the math, that's only $216 a person...for an entire year of health care? Was the person who came up with this dollar figure on drugs or something?

If $65 billion is really the figure being throw around we need to rethink this entire thing. I think 10x that might be accurate and that's a conservative estimate.


I'd be timing that by more like 20x and thats even an optimistic number at best.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by BlueTriangle
 

I quoted $65b because that is what was quoted in the opening post and is on Obama's website, but I have read that it is more like $85b for Obama's plan. Hillary's was a little less. So if you divide that by 47 million uninsured people you can figure out individual costs. That is $1,800 each, but I think some of the 47m are people who can afford health care but don't buy it. They would have to pay for it, so that would make it less than 47m people, but I could not find a solid number.

I also read somewhere that Obama's plan was $4,000 individual and Hillary's was like $2,700, but don't quote me on that. I haven't got time to look it up right now. If I find it again, I will post it.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by Hal9000
So if you divide that by 47 million uninsured people you can figure out individual costs. That is $1,800 each, but I think some of the 47m are people who can afford health care but don't buy it. They would have to pay for it, so that would make it less than 47m people, but I could not find a solid number.


No matter the cost, I still think it's wrong and against the basis that this country was founded upon to cherry pick 47 million people from the population and give them something that the others are paying for. If universal healthcare is really the goal and a majority of the citizens of voting age want it, it should truly be "universal". It's not fair that I have to continue to pay $3500 a year for my healthcare and take on the burden to pay for somebody else's as well.

The nice thing for the politicians is that you know there are 46 million people who support this by default because they're getting something for nothing. This cuts down the number of idiots they need to support this by 50%.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by BlueTriangle
No matter the cost, I still think it's wrong and against the basis that this country was founded upon to cherry pick 47 million people from the population and give them something that the others are paying for.

Even if this conservative view were the basis this country was founded on (though is was really libertarian) things are different now. Back then it didn't cost $1,200 a day to stay in the hospital, or spend $200 on prescription drugs. These are prices that a large portion of the population can't afford and with health care insurance going up so high, now they can't afford that either.

We have to figure out a way to reform health care and bring costs under control, and if you have a better idea, I'm all ears.



If universal healthcare is really the goal and a majority of the citizens of voting age want it, it should truly be "universal". It's not fair that I have to continue to pay $3500 a year for my healthcare and take on the burden to pay for somebody else's as well.

As I explained earlier, the cost of your health care should decrease if the burden of uninsured is reduced.

As an example, let's take that $85b price and spread it over the whole population as a tax and see what it will cost. The population of the US is 300m, but we should subtract the ones that are too poor to pay taxes which is 50m, and that leaves us with 250m. So $85b divided by 250m is $340, and that is the additional tax we pay. Lets say because everyone is insured your premium drops 10%, though I would expect more, that is $350. So not only are you are breaking even, you saved ten bucks. If it falls more than 10%, you are saving even more. That is how it works and it makes perfect sense. This was just a simplified example, and in reality it is extremely complicated, but as long as they take the time and use real world numbers and it works, I think it only makes sense. If they can't get it to come out so everyone benefits, then I would also have a problem with it.

I don't want to be rude, but If you want to continue to discuss this, I would prefer a different thread. Maybe if I can get the time, I will research it more thoroughly and post it in my thread. I don't want to give this thread any more attention than is necessary.

jetxnet, I am still waiting your explanation.



posted on Jun, 11 2008 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by BlueTriangle
It's not fair that I have to continue to pay $3500 a year for my healthcare and take on the burden to pay for somebody else's as well.


Precisely. But the warm-fuzzy-thinkers that support this kind of nonsense don’t think it’s fair that you have soooooo much and others have so little.

Personally, I walk by this one stinking derelict every day while he stands there and begs for money. Now, the warm-fuzzy crowd probably thinks he just needs more help. Personally, he disgusts me and I look forward to the day he eventually does himself in. Why so cold-hearted you ask?
Because I know, that this human parasite is the kind of people this bill will support. People who of their own bad choices and own lack of work-ethic, responsibility, etc., are where they are. Not because I did anything wrong but because they can’t handle their own life. Why should one thin dime be removed from my pocket to support these parasites? Why should I have to go to work every day and have money taken from my pocket to support this waste of flesh? A person who doe not contribute, nay only leeches from the rest of us. I say don’t support leeches, I say burn them off.

What really irks me is that I know money is already being stolen from me to support this vermin. Every time he gets arrested or goes to the hospital we all pay for it. Why? Nobody pays for me when I go to the hospital. And if I can’t afford the co-payments they send me nasty letters and threaten to take me to court. That’s fair right?

The other thing that bugs me is this: if you believe that people are not contributing enough to support “free” health care for all, then why don’t you just donate everything extra you make to your local hospital. Stop telling me I have to pay more. If you don’t think enough is being done - then GO DO IT. Stop trying to make me feel guilty and have the government force me to participate in your warm-fuzzy schemes.

I am so fed up with this!!!!!!


[edit on 11-6-2008 by passenger]



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by just great

Hey Red - your party has lost its way in the last century. Your party has had men such as Wallis and Duke upon its rosters in recent times. The current Red mentality is neolithic and nasty. It was the Blue mentality that had the courage to change the disparities of civil rights in CURRENT times. Your new mentality is the same as those slave owner you once fought against. Business is king, money is the real god and all Americans must endure anything that the wealthy dictate. Oh yes and thanks to your I.Q
of 83 presidents , most industries do monitor, regulate and enforce a bias towards their own industrial operations on the basis of your parties core values. Your suck cut hair cut senators and representatives ensure that regulation is in favor of anything that will create political support in the form of money and FOX news type propaganda!!!!!

Bats Crap to your mind and its stinking ridged walls... The lack of accomplishment on behalf of dems in the senate and the house is a result of Repo stone walling and anti citizen bias. Reds Creating chaos and blaming the effects on others... Bills filled with ridiculous appendages like so many blast from a 12 gauge is page 2 out of the Repo political play book.

As far as healthcare... May you personally suffer - be denied by your Black suits - may you lose everything as we have... May you effectively become an indentured servant
for rest of your days to those suits ... May you pray for an answer that once was laid at your door step by your enemies... You will be effected... One day you will realize it was your voice that cried for the very worst of man kinds tendencies to be enforced. May you argue with heartless people such as your current self. May you contest endlessly that somethings, some rights should not owned by any interests or denied to any man in our country!

- Healthcare should be a fundamental human right - in my mind it is, I will fight for it - We currently pay for a charbroiled man to be carried out of a burning building with tax payers dollars, but we will not ensure that he will receives every medical advance available??? We Blues are not asking to Socialize - creativity - science - energy...
We are talking about a Basic Human need that should not belong to any small group, rather belong to everyone. One day Red you WILL be stricken and might you watch your full coverage prescribe a remedy that is three times your rent, food and basics combined!
So I hold that spending money on projectiles is a waste Red. I also hold that
Lincoln had a conscience that is no longer alive in you rotting cabbage of moral bankruptcy that you term the RNC. Your current mindset is in line with the serfs of the past, promoting the lords that enslave all! P.O - F.F

[edit on 10-6-2008 by just great]


Your revisionist history is pathetic. George Wallace was a Democrat. A pro-segregationist Democrat.

You are a fool.



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by biggie smalls


I suggest you do a bit of research into how companies OWN lawmakers. It does not matter if companies do not make laws, they have people on the inside who do.

Its quite convenient that many politicians happen to be affiliated with various companies either during their term or were in the past/future.

Sounds like you're mad at the corporations, not universal health care. The abuse of the system is already endemic. Hopefully in an government-regulated system, there would not be private companies who made a quick buck thanks to subsidies or contracts.


Some of you people just refuse to think. Unbelievable.


It is quite believable as I see the same tired responses from many people and I have yet to see any proof that universal healthcare would cost $1.7 trillion, and I'm assuming that is additional to the current system.

I suggest you think as well.


I know perfectly well how companies "own" lawmakers. I never said it would cost 1.7 trillion. I don't know how much it would cost. But if I had to guess, I would say that eventually it would cost twice that.

Government regulations are the problem, not the answer. Regulations open the door to corruption. They are the reason Politicians are bought and paid for. Corporations love regulation. It allows them to get away with anything.

Perfect example is pollution. A company can dump "x" amount of waste into a water source becuase "regulations" specify that they can dump "x" amount of pollutant. So even though they are poisoning your drinking water you have no recourse, becuase the regulations imposed on them actually allow them to do it.

Truth be told, the time of individual responsibility is over, You guys have won. The government is father, the government is mother, at least for the immediate future. But the entire structure of this system is a house of cards, and It will not bear the weight of this. There is no way to pay for it. Companies will continue to go overseas, the rich are already leaving our shores, and they are taking the jobs they provide with them. Wonder how long it will be until the government tries to take over Oil companies.



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 03:58 AM
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Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by just great


[edit on 10-6-2008 by just great]


Your revisionist history is pathetic. George Wallace was a Democrat. A pro-segregationist Democrat.

You are a fool.


Your right Red that was retarded and I shoot off a turd - I'm just pissed all we all do is fight -
however I think your party has lost its way.

Our current health care is not working so what, try the old way some more? You tell me I apologize for my stupidity and my nasty behavior, what would you suggest to the other stupid Blues here (me being the King)?
If the primary motivation of healthcare is getting rich, growing and getting more rich , how can leaving healthcare alone provide a remedy?



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 04:24 AM
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Originally posted by tdubz
so, id like to see some people chime in who actually have a universal healthcare plan in their country.


I have already explained and answered some questions on how the National Health Service (NHS) works in the UK in this thread.



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 04:30 AM
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awww look at the little girls nagging at each other. Just shut it and vote ron paul. And I to support kool-aid. The official drink of "da hood"



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 11:10 AM
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What's it matter, since we are paying with money we don't even have. We currently pay about $500 billion a year towards the national debt (pretty close to 20% of our yearly federal budget), $300 bil of this goes to the interest alone, and the remaining $200 bil doesn't even pay any of the principal off (close to 10 TRILLION!) since we spend more than our budget EVERY YEAR, and will easily borrow more than $200 bil by years end. This country is going down the tubes and there is no one person that can save it. Just wait until other countries come knocking for their money and we are forced to pay with US soil.

This is why we need to stop throwing money at the government. We need accountability and responsibility from our representatives AND our citizens. Government is insanely costly and inefficient and upping taxes should NEVER be an option in a system that can't properly spend 40% of my check. Why throw more of OUR money into a system that is PROVEN not to work as intended.


And forget the two parties, we need statesmen who work solely for the country's best interests, NOT politicians who work solely for their party's best interests.



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by just great

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by just great


[edit on 10-6-2008 by just great]


Your revisionist history is pathetic. George Wallace was a Democrat. A pro-segregationist Democrat.

You are a fool.


Your right Red that was retarded and I shoot off a turd - I'm just pissed all we all do is fight -
however I think your party has lost its way.

Our current health care is not working so what, try the old way some more? You tell me I apologize for my stupidity and my nasty behavior, what would you suggest to the other stupid Blues here (me being the King)?
If the primary motivation of healthcare is getting rich, growing and getting more rich , how can leaving healthcare alone provide a remedy?




Because when the Government Monopolizes it there will be no competition. The Costs will increase becuase the taxpayers are footing the bill. Just like Medicare. Before the 1960's health care in this country was cheap. People made deals with their doctors, They got on payment plans with their doctors. They didn't get on payment plans with their insurance companies, most people could afford the care they needed and those that couldn't were treated free of charge by most doctors.

Since the inception of the nanny state, (medicare), the costs of medicine have skyrocketed. Now the government gets in-between a doctor/patient relationship, the government tells people what they will or will not cover. As if some idiotic bueracrat knows better than an M.D.

Universal Health care will be set up just like an HMO. I happen To work in a hospital run by an HMO. We already get about 70% of all our funding from the Federal Government, We are also hemorrhaging money like you wouldn't believe. We are one of the largest hospitals in the area, and we run out of space almost everyday. The wait times are increasing, the costs continue to skyrocket despite the fact that most of the time the feds or the state is covering it. All this, and the Baby Boomers haven't even retired yet.

Whats the solution? Get the government out of it. Medicine is a marketplace like anything else. Someone is simply selling a service. Manipulating Markets has dire consequences. Just look at what the Federal Reserve has done to our dollar. All Markets are free by nature, medicine is no different. Eventually they correct.

For gods sake the government runs every program it ever created in it's history at a loss, why do some of you think health cvare is somehow the exception to the rule?



[edit on 12-6-2008 by aravoth]



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 12:34 PM
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Obama's a frikin communist!!! He'll kill this country for sure!! By the time he gets through we'll end up in a depression just like the one we had in the 30's!! He's a radical liberal, the most radical liberal in the senate!

If he wins we can kiss our national security goodbye!!!



posted on Jun, 12 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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Hmm, that took a loooong time to read


How about this as a solution?

Pull troops out of Iraq. I was for the change for those people, as i thought it was something they wanted. They don't. Let them live the way the want. Stop spending my money, because you dont want to prove some democrat right.

That's going to save you a lot of money (most of which that has been spent, was done so from a surplus in the government anyways)

So ... no need to raise taxes


Bring on the universal healthcare. The only way Americans will see that its not the answer is if we have to suffer through it for 4 years. Universal Healthcare is better than what we have now, this is true, but its not the answer.
So fine, have your 1.7trillion dollar plan

but! No need to raise taxes. Why?

Cut the following programs

Welfare - 1.01 trillion dollars in f.y.2000 (source here

stop using tax dollars to research pointless - "no duh" type issues

we already know that weed isnt a healthy thing

Stop spending our tax dollars to stop a bunch of kids from smoking weed and snorting coke. If thats what they want to do - let them. Im not saying make it LEGAL, im saying stop spending so much money to raid a trailer park in search of a few baggies of reefer

Since the Regan Admin - we've spent More than 3 trillion dollars to stop some junkies from shooting up

Stop spending OUR tax dollars to bail out Airlines and banks. Get your government greasy fingers out of the private sector. Its simple

If airline A goes out of business
Airline B will buy out Airline A and become Airline AB, twice as big. They'll make necessary changes to rectify the problems with Airline A that made it go out of business in the first place.

Over all - stop spending money to have a "mine's bigger than yours" contest with the rest of the world.

What happened to the America that dreamed. What happened to the America that said we'd have a flying car by the year 2000?
Vision has left the american public, and its more about flexing our muscles in any way we can

Aside from Body builders who became FAMOUS actors because of their acting persona's

name for me one famous body builder (without googling)
Nobody likes "look at my muscles, im better"

American's don't want to be attacked by terrorists, true. Im not saying don't protect us

But they also dont want to be broke to keep that thought a reality.

...atleast thats how i see it.



If you cut here, and nip there (where i've outlined)
you have more than enough extra money to pay for the "healthcare" plan
you have more than enough money left over, after that, to do whatever you want with it

How about going back to the moon
How about making the I.S.S. exciting again
Bring science back into our lives. Make scientific achivements the specatcle of America the way it used to be

Big guns and big tanks, body armor and bullets, only makes others laugh at us.




[edit on 12-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



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