Originally posted by AgentScmidt
Socialism never works. This universal health care plan is stupid. Sure you'll get healthcare for cheaper, but you also have to pay more taxes anyway, so you're really saving no money. The government just can't get this money for 'universal healthcare' from thin air.

The only people that will be getting healthcare for free/cheap are lazy people who leech off of society and are too lazy to get a job. If we stopped sugar coating things for them and giving free handouts, it would cure the sloths of their lazyness and they would be forced to get a job and become a productive member of society to stay alive like everyone else does.

I live in Japan and I disagree with everything you have said.

Originally posted by Karlhungis
Tax the wealthy and the corporations to pay for it on the same scale as they plan on taxing the middle class and I will be more supportive. But if I am going to have to pay 10-20% of my disposable income to fund someone elses doctor bills, the upper class had better be eating the same 10-20%.

See this is a fallacy. Of course it would be SO nice that the poor and middle class get free health insurance on wealthy people's tabs, unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

What I heard is Obama is going to keep tax cuts for the middle class permanent but expel tax cuts for the wealthy (250 grand+) and is also going to INCREASE taxes on them as well as "possibly" increasing capital gains taxes and increasing corporate earnings taxes to pay for this program.

To those ignorant about economics it sounds GREAT! Wow I get free health care, woohoo!

They, and possibly you, do not understand the implications of increasing taxes even if it is on the "evil and greedy corporations and wealthy". The reason why the U.S. is such a beacon for business is because of its lower taxes. The reason why we have such low unemployment compared to other countries is because we have high corporate earnings. The reason why we are the leader in advances in technology and other things is because we have low capital gains taxes encouraging investment.

Yeah increasing taxes on things that seem "separate" from you seems nice. But it will affect you in the long term.

And that isn't even mentioning the innumerable problems that nationalised medicine causes for a nation with 300 million people including tens of millions who are illegal and pay nothing.

In the beginning the Kool-Aid will taste good... but it will quickly get bitter! (They make rat poison sweet so they'll eat it!)


Right now, many employers provide health care for employees because it's a basic need and benefit for people who get off their lazy asses and work. But if the smaller companies knew that their employees could get health care from Big Brother, they will quickly drop that benefit to save money.

It won't take long before private health care disappears as a benefit to employees across the board and the entire USA is on socialized health care. Will that increase costs? Hmmm... I'm fairly certain that the costs that are being quoted today, are just to cover the PRESENTLY uninsured.

ALSO... keep in mind... taxes are meant to pay for things that every taxpayer can benefit from... not to be a way to redistribute wealth. Since my employer pays for my health care at the moment, I would only be paying my taxes to support other peoples health care. Personally, I work out, eat right, and am concerned about living a healthy lifestyle (why? just because that makes sense!)

It's really hard not to notice that the poorest people in this country are the 400lb trans-fat eating lamos who are clogging up the hospitals due to their own stupidity. Perhaps we wouldn't have a health care issue if the people who can't afford to be sick stopped whining and took care of themselves. In other countries poor people... starving people... are actually thin... that tends to happen when you don't have much food! Perhaps, instead of food-stamps used at MacDonalds... we should give them a special place to shop with their wellfare checks that only sells healthy food! You wanna eat? Eat friggin healthy! I bet that would cut a couple medical costs! OMG!? What did he just say? The government telling people what to eat?! That's un-American.... LOL! Ok... just wait until they are paying for our healthcare and you will see how much they control what and how we eat... go on... keep drinkin' the Kool-Aid...

I know someone will flame back about how someone in their family who was not lazy and took care of themselves ended up with an affliction which made them go broke. I feel for you. The reason they went broke is because the cost of health care is too high, partially due to the idiots I'm talking about. Also, they probably went broke because they actually paid their bill... also not the type of person I'm talking about. You should be just as ticked off as me that your family member went broke over illness partially due to the reasons I'm siting.

Here's another MAJOR reason for the problem: Let's not forget Big-Pharma, etc... they will get bigger and are another reason people are getting shafted. Get bigger? Huh? Wha? Drink your Kool-Aid... they WILL get bigger because they have the lobby money to keep themselves from being regulated. Duh! And now they will be on the government doles? Think! Wake up Obamatrons!

I find it very challanging to feel bad for all those people smoking crack, sucking down 40s of Colt-45, and stuffing their fat little faces with MacDonalds and wonder why they have a $200k medical bill for their heart attack.... which, BTW they don't end up paying anyway... it just raises my company's premiums... which is why my benes have been cut out of my retirement plan.

Screw them! and screw Socialism! and screw all this talk of Socialized Medicine! Anyone who thinks this is a smart thing to do is really sucking down way too much Obama Hopium smoke!!!

I don't usually get this fired up about topics on here and usually ride the PC line... but this is BS.... you have been BRAINWASHED!!!!!!

Originally posted by JonInMichigan

It's really hard not to notice that the poorest people in this country are the 400lb trans-fat eating lamos who are clogging up the hospitals due to their own stupidity.

Yeah!! Those poor people need to start shopping at Whole Foods!! What?

The reason they're eating at McDonalds is because there's one on every street corner, and it costs $10 to feed a family of 4. Maybe you have the cash to spend on dietary supplements and gym memberships, but most Americans don't.

That's the true elitist view. ME ME ME!!!

It's been said before, but universal healthcare exists in most other first world nations, and it hasn't broken them.

I took a quick jog around the parking lot to think a little more about this issue and all the negative responses I am going to get from my post... so I have a couple more comments.

If you were offended that I am picking on obese people (who, by their own admission) are already picked on. Just wait... just wait until other people are paying your medical bills via socialized medicine. When you order two Big Macs, it would not suprise me in the least if people in line start verbally abusing you for it. You think the prejudice is bad now?

I truely believe you can do what you want. You can eat how you want and you can pay for the consequences with your health later. But when others are paying for you it's going to get rough for you. Same with smokers, drug-users, and alchoholics. I think all those things are fine to do, if you want, as long I don't have to pay for the outcome of your mistakes. I believe in a free country.

I'm trying to help you think about the unintended consquences of how you will be treated when we are all paying for your health decisions. I see socialized medicine leading to a whole new level of classism, racism, and negative attitudes for people wanting to live freely and make their own decisions. I don't want that for you - or for me! I love freedom!

Think about what will happen when other people are paying your medical bills with 20% or more higher taxes. Think of how they'll treat you if you live unhealthy? Do you want that? That didn't that occur to you did it?

So before you attack me... just think about how the whole thing will play out over the next 20 years and then flame me if you think that our social structure won't suffer serious consequences from this ridiculous plan.

Originally posted by JonInMichigan
In the beginning the Kool-Aid will taste good... but it will quickly get bitter! (They make rat poison sweet so they'll eat it!)

It's really hard not to notice that the poorest people in this country are the 400lb trans-fat eating lamos who are clogging up the hospitals due to their own stupidity…Here's another MAJOR reason for the problem: Let's not forget Big-Pharma, etc... they WILL get bigger because they have the lobby money to keep themselves from being regulated

Good points, but I’d like to add a few:

Let’s not forget the estimated sixty-billion ($60,000,000,00) in fraud every year! It does my heart good to know that crooks don’t have to rob by sticking a gun in my face but can sign a form and have the Government take it out of my paycheck for them! Much less messy that way.

Not necessarily fraud, per se, but unnecessary surgery that adds up to untold billions per year as well. This is much harder to account for than direct fraud, but it does cost a lot.
I work in a field that deals with elderly people on a daily basis. I can’t tell you how many ninety-year-old patients, with senility and partial paralysis that have gone in for cataract surgery or a knee replacement. All billed to Medicare a.k.a Your Paycheck.
One guy had spent the last eighteen months in bed because of various ailments and he was completely out of it. They did some internal surgery on him (medically necessary of course) and he died two weeks later. You should have seen the bill for that one: tens of thousands of our dollars to operate on a guy that was over eighty years old and bedridden! I know some bleeding-heart is going to say: “You wouldn’t feel that way if it was someone in YOUR family” – well forget it because he was.

The bitter truth is we CAN”T afford this people. The costs will skyrocket so high and so fast it will make your head spin. The truth is, we can’t even afford Medicare as it is. And Obama wants to spend more?! Call me mean-spirited or whatever, but I am not going to give up half of my paycheck to pay for this boondoggle.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Anyway, imagine a family of 4 (single mother and 3 children). Not only does the mother need to work excessive hours per day to make ends meet to cover housing costs, but she needs to supply food for her children. They have a few options:

1: Eat at McDonalds
2: Rely on the children to cook, shop and in general fend for themselves.

I am a single parent with three kids. The above two options you posted are ridiculous.

I try to avoid taking my kids to McDonald's because I know that most of the food there is unhealthy. I shop at the local grocery store and get lots of fruits and vegetables. The kids don't cook for themselves. I cook dinner. It usually takes about 15 minutes. Chicken breasts and fish, along with vegetables, usually costs about $10 for dinner for all of us, and is far healthier than McDonalds.

And after dinner, we often go for a walk.

To attempt to connect being single, poor, and needing to take care of your kids as an reason to eat unhealthy makes zero sense.

The Obamatons are ridiculous. Espousing their hatred of all things corporate, crying out to the heavens for our leaders to stop subsidizing the evil man in the black suit. And yet, when it comes to health care, all they want is a subsidized handout.

Listen.....


I hate to be the one to tell you this. The United States can't afford Nationalized Health care. You're going to sit there with that glossy eyed look you got while you were at an Obama Rally listening to your messiah speak about how easy it will be, and how all it will require is a little "effort" on your part. Thats an understatement. You think Nationalized health care is going to cost less than the Iraq war? Really? The Medicare prescription drug benefit alone costs over 1 trillion, and Thats just old people going to get their pills. In Fact our deficit from Medicare alone is over 20 trillion dollars. Yeah thats right, 20 trillion, with a T. Good luck paying that one off. Oh but "Universal Health Care" is Different somehow. Right, The Largest middle class in history is about to retire, and when they do that, they will go to the hospital en mass. The Boomers. Possibly the most worthless and entitled generation the world has ever known is going to bankrupt the living crap out of everyone.

Your "feelings" are not going to feed anyone, nor will they solve global poverty. About the only thing your feelings will do is make the middle class disappear, and take whats left of our production/manufacturing jobs overseas.

Please, stop with your left-right BS. All I ever see on threads like these are the comparisons between Left and right. It's all crap. Look I can do it too.


GW Bush : responsible for killing over a million Iraqi's by bombs, bullets, and Bull****.

Bill "slick willy" Clinton : responsible for killing over a million Iraqi's by starving them to death.

See what I did there? There is no difference between the two parties. The examples I could list are limitless. Left VS Right, Republican VS Democrat, It's all crap. Stop buying into it.

The extremes of those parties are in control now. What you essentially have is Mussolini VS Stalin. And a throughly distracted public cheering them on. Wonders never cease.

Originally posted by JonInMichigan
How long does it take to prepare a basic healthy dinner from the grocery store? The time spent cooking (I'm a single dad with 2 kids who works full time) is a perfect time for the kids to do their homework... and for a parent to spend time actually talking to their kids... remember that? family chats?

Do you REALLY believe that it cost less to eat out than at home?

My family of four swore off eating out about 3 months ago now and went to solely cooking our own food to save money. I can tell you from experience that dinner takes me in the 15-20 minute range every evening and the meals cost anywhere from $2 - $10 depending on what it is. One of our really cheap meals is simply pasta w/sauce & homemade garlic bread. It literally costs about $2 to feed four people and everybody loves it.

Take those same four people to mcdonald's and even if we only eat dollar menu food it's going to be $10 - $12. More realistically, the kids both get happy meals and my wife and I would go for value meals of some kind so it would be closer to $20.

The other benefit mentioned is very evident too. Many nights my kids participate in the cooking which provides some family time. We also get the family dinner around the kitchen table which I believe is essential to well rounded kids later down the road.

Yes it is much wiser to spend hundreds of billions on military development than spending hundreds of billions on the people.

Cut the military spending by 3/4 and you'll be fine.
Oh but wait...without war the empire cannot survive.

If you ask me, your already screwed and have been for a long time :S

P.S. It won't matter who wins, its all for entertainment.

Peace

Maybe I was a little grumpy this morning and my posts were a little evil. I was a bit worked up after reading a bunch of Obama health care arguments this morning.

More politely put:

1. Nationalized healthcare does not work. The nation backing it must heavily regulate the medical profession and proceedure costs while also giving doctors and hospitals incentives to have the best training and equipment. This cost is unbelievable!
(Doctors and hospitals do not have the best equipment for fun - it's a for profit business. You will be removing the free market incentives. This is basic economics.)

2. As stated in number one, the medical field will need to be heavily regulated so that there isn't a bunch of unnessesary proceedures done on the nation's tab. Ok... so what? Lot's of red tape for people who actually need something done.

3. Big lobbies will control what drugs get prescribed and are available by negotiating deals with the government. Monopolies of big drug companies will wipe everything/everyone else out who wants to supply cheap medicine. Google "UN Codex" to find out how they are going to block all foods from being sold unless they go through regulation. You can forget buying produce from a country corner stand.

3. The best doctors will get paid less than they deserve. The worse doctors will get paid more than they deserve. What is the incentive to go to Harvard Med school for hundreds of thousands of dollars when you can go to the lowest level state university or party college for less? There isn't one. You'll make the same either way right?

4. There is a reason that leaders from all over the world come here to see the best doctors in the world. Leaders from the same 1st world countries that they (socialized medicine supporters) like to point to and claim, "we're the only ones without national health care!".

5. People will need to have good health habits (the crux of my other posts that got a bit out of control) in order for the system to work. So the government will legislate good habits... say it with me, "LEGISLATE GOOD HABITS"... ahhh take a good wiff of freedom getting flushed down the toilet. Like I said, I may be criticizing people's habits but I feel they should be free to have them. I just don't want to pay for them. So the choice is: I pay for bad habits or lose my freedoms along with everyone else. Two really crappy choices.

6. Doctors will sort of be in a bit of a monopoly situation. All the less affluent doctors who went to less high-brow schools will band together and demand higher wages... not right away... this is after pretty much everyone has lost their coverage at work and the high paid private doctors are out of clients.... they will become national healthcare doctors and demand more money... but everyone makes the same right? So the cost of the whole system just goes through the roof.

It doesn't work when people are free and don't have a good sense of good health. I saw someone post from Japan saying he liked national health care. Yeah - those people eat healthy as hell and exersize every morning at work. So - yeah - could work if we lived like that. Our lazy butts won't exersize by choice though (I mean I do - but most won't) so it will have to be required. If you are saying to yourself right now - "well - that doesn't sound too bad... I mean, it's for the best!", then freedom is truely dead or quickly dying. It may be the right thing to do, but that's not freedom. I do it and I educate my kids to do it - but I'd stop in two seconds is I was forced to do it.