Has the tribulation already happened?

I was discussing religion today with a Catholic friend, and the subject of Revelations, the tribulation, the antichrist, etc, came up. I believe the classic interpretation of this book: God will take up those who follow him into heaven, then a 7 year tribulation will begin, the Antichrist will rise into power, and Jesus will return, etc.

He, however, believes that the tribulation already happened. He believes that we're living in the 1000 years of God's Reign On Earth, and that Ceaser Nero was the Antichrist.

Personally, I think it's an interesting theory, but untrue. What are your thoughts? I can provide more details about his beliefs if you need them.

End times theories are always interesting. I am not sure what I believe about where we are in corelation to the trib. I do however want to point out that the idea of a "rapture" (classically referred to as the ressurection) happening BEFORE the tribulation is NOT the classical view. Here is a great article that i believe takes a lot of the hogwash out of the end times:
www.str.org...

Blessings,

No. It makes more sense for it to be 2012

For what it's worth. My interpretation of the scriptures and revelation would put us smack dab in the seven year tribs now. Don't break any mirrors.

Your friend is wrong. The 7-year tribulation is described in chapters 4-19 of Revelation and Rev 4:1 has John, in 96 AD being called to see what will happen thereafter, not before.

for what its worth, I have written a significant analysis of old testament allegory and new testament scripture to discover that they and other signs around the earth point to the following schedule:

Epiphany/fall of latter rain on first fruits - Sep 2008
1st half of tribulation - Sep 2008-Feb 2012
Abomination that makes desolate - Feb 2012
last half of tribulation Feb 2012 - Sep 2015
Day of the Lord/wrath - Sep 2015-Sep 2016
Setup of the Millennial Kingdom - Sep 2016 and thereafter.

Where in the Bible does it say that the tribulation will be for seven years?

Everywhere I read it says 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, a time (1) times (2) and a half (3 1/2)

Originally posted by mr. wildflowers
I believe the classic interpretation of this book: God will take up those who follow him into heaven, then a 7 year tribulation will begin, the Antichrist will rise into power, and Jesus will return, etc.

He, however, believes that the tribulation already happened. He believes that we're living in the 1000 years of God's Reign On Earth, and that Ceaser Nero was the Antichrist.

The only scripture mentioning 7 years, and used to support this is in Daniel

(Daniel 9:27)
"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abomination shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate."

This is incorrectly interpretated to refer to "the AntiChrist", the beginning portion of this verse does not refer to the AntiChrist" but to Christ himself.

this is part of the 70 weeks prophecy
"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. "

This portion, the beginning portion of this verse, refers to Christ and his being "cut off" in the midst of the week. That is, how he was crucified "mid week" in his 7 year ministry (cut short at the 3 1/2 year midway mark), AND how he was crucified MID-WEEK, not on "Good Friday".

In Revelation : it is repeatedly stated to be 3 1/2 years, or 42 lunar months, or 1260 days, or times, times and a half (3 1/2 year).

Plus there is no rapture....

(the remain portion of his 7 year ministry is completed by the Two Witnesses)



[edit on 5-8-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]

[edit on 5-8-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib_2


Well u lost me at the very end b/c you said there is no rapture.
I believe that the Bible does say that there is going to be a catching away or a rapture, and that it's going to happen at Christ's second coming. We don't know when His second coming is, so that's why we must be prepared, we probably won't realize who the Anti Christ is until the battle of Armageddon. As for everything else I need much more study and this is a theory. I believe he's coming back and we need to be ready and follow his commandment in John 3:5 and Acts 2:38.
I just believe that the rapture is going to take many by surprise b/c we truthfuly have no idea for when it's going to be, but don't wait for a tribulation b/c the abomination of desolation looks like it already happened.

Originally posted by mr. wildflowers
Has the tribulation already happened?

When the tribulation starts you won't be sitting on an internet chat forum wondering if it has. There will be no question about it.

In reference to the 'rapture' notion - there is no pre-trib rapture. The rapture cult was started by failed anglican priest Nelson Darby in the 1800s. The rapture cult has been discussed, in depth, in BTS.

Pick a thread. These are just a few of the many rapture discussions.

www.belowtopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jesus Prayed – ‘I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that
you keep them from the evil one’ – John 17:15

Those who ‘suffer with Him (for His sake) through the terrors of the last
days will at that time ‘also be glorified with Him’ (Romans 8:17)

the one ‘who endures to the end will be saved”
(Matthew 24:13; see also 10:22)

Some history on the Rapture Cult -

Different rapture cult beliefs

Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history

waiting to be raptured

Most people who hold dispensational beliefs assume they are based in the Bible and have ancient roots. But dispensationalism has been around less than 200 years. The father of dispensationalism is John Nelson Darby, a Protestant Irish lawyer who left his successful practice to become an Anglican priest. ... In 1827 Darby left the Anglican priesthood and by 1831 was among the leaders of the Plymouth Brethren, a non-denominational movement which denounced mainline Christianity. He began to teach that the true church would need to be removed from the earth in order to make way for the completion of God's dealings with the Jews. He named this secret removal of the church the Rapture. This belief was something completely new in Christianity. No previous Christian, neither Catholic nor Protestant, had ever proposed or taught such an thing.

This belief is called Preterism and has been around for a long time. The belief in a pre-tribulation rapture, though the prevailing view among evangelical Christians today, is fairly new. It was previously believed throughout much of Christendom that the rapture would occur at the second coming, as a single event, or as two separate even separated by just moments of time, at the end of the Great Tribulation, which was to occur at the end of time. However, the Preterist view was not unheard of in ages past.

I know what you mean, though. In America especially it can seem as if nobody ever believed anything different. I questioned the pre-trib rapture in a conversation with my dispensational, pre-trib, Baptist-to-the-core sister-in-law and she acted like I was a heretic. She bought me books by Tim LaHaye (Author of the Left Behind books) for Christmas.

My former pastor and several members of my old church were partial Preterists so I am somewhat familiar with this view. Read some of Hank Hanegraaff's (The Bible Answer Man's) recent books for a scholarly development of the Preterist view. He has also written some historical fiction about the Christians of Nero's day which illustrates the Preterist view quite effectively.

Originally posted by mr. wildflowers
I was discussing religion today with a Catholic friend, and the subject of Revelations, the tribulation, the antichrist, etc, came up. I believe the classic interpretation of this book: God will take up those who follow him into heaven, then a 7 year tribulation will begin, the Antichrist will rise into power, and Jesus will return, etc.

.

i'm fairly certain mainstream churches will say that Christians from the founding of Christianity have been in 'tribulation',
(that is their Lot, to suffer, so as to prove worthy of a glorified life...)



what needs to be established is that the 70th week of Daniel,
is also the final 7 years of Revelations
*it is 7 years duration because the first 1/2 week is 42 months long as explained in Rev.


what also needs better explained is that during the second 1/2 (of the 70th week)
those final 42 months are when the whole world suffers the Great Tribulation,
a unique tribulation era which is more than 3X = [trumpets/bowls/vials]
Triple the ferocity of the historical tribulations which was with us through the ages.

bottom-line the 'Great Tribulation' lasts only 42 months not 7 years



For the first ~42 months, peace gets started, most all the woes of nations
are seemingly fixed, great progress to a Utopian order in the world is under way....
THEN around 3 1/2 years into this era ->>

the Anti--christ is revealed ,
Only then the 'Great Tribulation' begins,
because the A-C caused the Sacrifice to be abolished, changed the feast dates, etc...
the clever False-Prophet causes an image of A-C to come-to-life
and the F-P causes many to recieve the Mark, Name, Number of A-C
on their person.
All good reasons (to Christ) to beset the nations with 'Great Tribulation' that has never been seen before...
with the sounding of Trumpets/pouring out the Bowls & Vials of judgements, pestilences, disasters on humankinds nations/governments/civilization & its systems.



the 'Great' Tribulation is what the pre-trib's are expecting to excape,

He, however, believes that the tribulation already happened. He believes that we're living in the 1000 years of God's Reign On Earth, and that Ceaser Nero was the Antichrist.

if this is the mellenial reign of christ, then hes doing a horrible job.

[edit on 10-1-2009 by miriam0566]

The Great Tribulation has not yet started. But we certainly see an economic house of cards set up to fall during this tribulation, remember Jesus said it would be the absolute worst time in ALL human history, we are not their yet.

Matthew 24:21-22 (The Message)

21-22"This is going to be trouble on a scale beyond what the world has ever seen, or will see again. If these days of trouble were left to run their course, nobody would make it. But on account of God's chosen people, the trouble will be cut short.


Matthew 24:21-22 (Amplified Bible)

21For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again].
22And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God's chosen ones) those days will be shortened.


So the this Great Tribulation is SO BAD that if God doesn't intervene everybody dies. I don't see things as being that bad right now, but we sure are headed that way.

There is a group called preterists that want to say the tribulation has happened. If it has where was the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth? Where are the millions who die during the tribulation? Things are bad but will get a lot worse at that time.

Can anyone explain what tribulation is?
I've guessed somewhat, that its going to be when the proverbial hits the fan, in a very bad way for humans.

I'm hoping it was Ceaser Nero personally..


My half-patched opinion on biblical texts, think back how long ago it was, how many times its been edited to omit certain things/add certain things and that its been translated a few times. It might not be for a couple of thousands years yet. Or might not happen at all *fingers crossed*

Originally posted by scitzomonk
Can anyone explain what tribulation is?
I've guessed somewhat, that its going to be when the proverbial hits the fan, in a very bad way for humans.

I'm hoping it was Ceaser Nero personally..


My half-patched opinion on biblical texts, think back how long ago it was, how many times its been edited to omit certain things/add certain things and that its been translated a few times. It might not be for a couple of thousands years yet. Or might not happen at all *fingers crossed*

matthew 24:[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

tribulation - : distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution ; also : a trying experience

if you read in revelation 6
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

i just want to focus on the mountains for a moment. mountains are sometimes symbolically representative of governments or structures of society and have this apparent permenance. after all, you cant move a mountain unless you have huge amounts of power. otherwise its just always there.

well there will be a time in the future where the world is ¨shaken¨. what seemed stable in the past will seem to fall apart.

the initial fulfillment of matt 24:21 was quite disturbing. the romans sieged jerusalem but then retreated giving the christians (who heeded jesus´warning) time to get out. when the romans returned, they built a palisade wall around the city to control the traffic. they also happened to attack during one of the festivals, so they allowed jews in, but then wouldnt let them leave.

so now imagine yourself stuck in jerusalem. theres no food and you cant leave. if you leave then you will be crucified to the palisade wall. you cant fight your way out and the city is in a constant state of fighting. everything you knew, all the faith you had in jerusalem (probably you would thing ¨jerusalem cant fall!¨) would be shattered. your daily routine. everything you were familiar with is gone. in that respect, your mountains have ¨moved¨

josephus who was a historian of the time said that some were eating their own babies. that is definetly a great tribulation.

the global great tribulation will be bad. likely elements of this system of living will begin to fall apart. staples that we depend on will be scarce. then you can imagine all the things that usually result from a situation like that. i wouldnt be surprised if there are riots and wars that result from all of this. likely people will do desperate things to survive.

those days have to be cut short. in other words armageddon has to come early (before the great tribulation can play out) otherwise noone would survive.

so the great tribulation gets so bad that if god didnt intervene, human life on earth would be eradicated. (the passage also has a spiritual fulfillment but that a different topic)


[edit on 17-1-2009 by miriam0566]