Man killed after grabbing officer\

reply to post by trs10


I am serving as well, it is unfortunate that some do not understand that we walk out the door everyday with the intent to serve the public interest, knowing that the public in general could care less until it is time to need an officer...that is because it is not their job, I often do not think about other peoples jobs and there is always going to be some people that will never appreciate the job we do, but representing yourself as an officer in your article and then saying someone deserves to die or should is out of character. Dont let your feelings get the best of you and always maintain your professionalism when dealing with the populace...which we are a part of.
On that note
I think the subject was definately out of control, yeah three on one seems like a lot, but this is not a fight over some disagreement these are officers that while trying to enforce the came into contact with a suspect who was fighting them and disarmed one of them of a taser...and while the taser being a non-lethal weapon, if after the prongs were deployed still has a touch pad which could be used to defeat an officer and at that point could be disarmed, killed and move on to kill others. So in my opinion these officers were in a fight for their lives, they were not there outside a bar fighting because they were drunk, they were there affecting their professional duties. Once again we were not there, the suspect was resisting arrest, diarmed an officer, was fighting with two officers and showed no sign of conceding. Those are the facts as we know them, if people still wish to blame the officers that is your perrogative as a citizen and there is a court system and policies which will no doubt be reviewed and utilized in this investigation...but to those of you that wish to second guess these officers and say what if they had done this or that, then maybe this would not of happened...well what if the suspect had overcome the officers disarmed them of their pistols and ran down the road and killed on of your family members, then you would definately say the officers did not do their jobs or did not react with the force that they should. Think what you want.

[edit on 8-6-2008 by birchtree]

Cops really gotta stop using this crap to take on unarmed people, why not use a lasso or something, a net even, you dont have to shock someone, what if they had a pacemaker or something... idiots

if the guy had a gun then its another story, or even a knife they could have wounded him in the leg or something, seems the people are on power trips... not like they're fighting the hulk or anything

if the cops didnt want to kill them, well they are trained to use those guns, im sure they can aim for legs or arms to take down the threat, why do sooo many shootings involve the guy dying instead


did the guy have a gun did they think he had a gun?
if not then 3-1 and you have to take out a gun when youre the 3??
arent these police supposed to be trained in different ways of self defense at all?
shouldnt one officer be able to defend himself against a unarmed man?
if so shouldnt 3 of the cities finest be able to address the situation without breaking a sweat??

these guys got batons cuffs tasers guns and weapon training, NO ONE who is UNARMED WITH A GUN should EVER be killed by a police officer if they are do die that should be the courts decision, or is it guilty until proven innocent? couldve sworn this was the U.S.A. and it was innocent until proven guilty by a trial of your peers? at what point did we give these police so much power and what must we do to revoke that power? too many people are being destroyed by these gangs

I am in no way defending the initial criminal here, but i am attacking the abusive disgusting beings who we call the police that do things like this(not all cops but seems to be too many in my eyes recently), its happenings far too often

we need less police
better police
new laws that are based upon the original constitution and we must give power back to the people and take it away from the corrupt controllers
with proper laws set in place we can create a world that makes it possible for police to take care of the petty things peacefully and eliminate so many violent disgusting crimes


and for the record, the guy who got killed, if that is the case he was a moron but death shouldnt be the punishment for being stupid

or is this nazi germany and we put the stupid in camps too?


i read one person ask why would a person try to take a weapon from am officer?

im not saying this case implies that what im about to say is the situation here

but one of the reasons someone would try to take a weapon from an officer is because they are tired of the oppression and gang like tactics and they are fed up with the bs they are being fed and the way they are being controlled and intimidated, its the reasons revolutions happen
(but please dont think im trying to say this moron was trying to start a revolution but if im wrong and he was the next che guevara then my bad)

I am an ex cop

1.) Some Tazer guns can be reloaded.

2.) You do not know what the perp did before he gt shocked . . . he could have been claiming he had a knife in his pocket, and bum rushed the officers while reaching for his "knife"(for example) . . .

3.) When you draw your weapon, you do so with intent to use. When you fire your gun, you do it with intent to neutralize the threat. You are trained to aim for the center mass (torso) which more often than not leads to death.

[edit on 8/6/2008 by xxpigxx]

Originally posted by Dramey
if the cops didnt want to kill them, well they are trained to use those guns, im sure they can aim for legs or arms to take down the threat, why do sooo many shootings involve the guy dying instead

No. Officers shoot with intent to kill. It is the last resort. Stuff like you mention is only in hollywood movies - and to make the movies more entertaining.

Originally posted by Dramey
did the guy have a gun did they think he had a gun?

It doesn't matter if he did or didn't, he was reaching for THEIR guns which only meant one thing, he was going to use their guns against them.

Originally posted by Dramey
if not then 3-1 and you have to take out a gun when youre the 3??
arent these police supposed to be trained in different ways of self defense at all?

shouldnt one officer be able to defend himself against a unarmed man?
if so shouldnt 3 of the cities finest be able to address the situation without breaking a sweat??

Have you ever fought with someone high on drugs, especially PCP (dusters)? Didn't think so.

They are freaks of nature and invunerable to any sort of pain. I've seen a duster break both of his ankles and continue running from police very fast while his feet were actually dragging sideways and he was basically running on his leg bones like stilts.

Often the taser will not even work on them they are so jacked up on drugs, sometimes even gunshots will not stop them and they will keep on trucking.

Originally posted by Dramey


these guys got batons cuffs tasers guns and weapon training, NO ONE who is UNARMED WITH A GUN should EVER be killed by a police officer if they are do die that should be the courts decision, or is it guilty until proven innocent? couldve sworn this was the U.S.A. and it was innocent until proven guilty by a trial of your peers? at what point did we give these police so much power and what must we do to revoke that power? too many people are being destroyed by these gangs

Did you skip history classes? Never seen an old western? Police, sheriffs, guards, etc have been killing for thousands of years. Would you have rather they police settles this matter with a gun-draw at high noon like in the old west, where someone is definitely going to die?

Originally posted by Dramey
I am in no way defending the initial criminal here

Yes you are.

Originally posted by Dramey
, but i am attacking the abusive disgusting beings who we call the police that do things like this(not all cops but seems to be too many in my eyes recently), its happenings far too often

There are more than 900,000 police officers and detectives in the USA, that study was done in 2002 there are probably a lot more now. I would hardly call one report per week (at most) of police brutality "far too often". And I don't even see anything the officers in this particular case did wrong.

Originally posted by Dramey
or is this nazi germany and we put the stupid in camps too?

What does that have to do with this at all? And for the record, that's a myth. The only people that put in concentration camps were enemy combatants, just like we OURSELVES did in America during WWII to the japanese-americans.

Originally posted by Dramey
i read one person ask why would a person try to take a weapon from am officer?

but one of the reasons someone would try to take a weapon from an officer is because they are tired of the oppression and gang like tactics

No it's because they are going to use the weapon to shoot and kill the officer, because they don't have their own gun on them to do it, and nothing more.

[edit on 9-6-2008 by AgentScmidt]

reply to post by xxpigxx


since you were a cop my question to you or any other cop is dont police have weapons training? would you not agree that in almost all cases where the victim does not have a gun that is would be fairly reasonable to expect if a officer has to use violent force wouldnt he have the time/training/knowledge/abilitiy to use this force without being lethal?

We can do some simple math here. There are 900,000+ police officers and detectives in the USA (in 2002). Let's assume that number is about 1,000,000 in 2008 due to population growth.

1,000,000 divided by 0.1% is 1,000.

Now, 1,000 divided by 12 (for each month) is 83.

Now let's say you hear 83 cases of police brutality or corruption per month, than that means only 0.1% of police are are bad cops per year. That's pretty damned low. I don't think you'll find any other job out there with that clean of a record.

And that 83 figure is a gross exaggeration. I hear maybe like what, 4 cases of police brutality/corruption per month on this site and other news sources? That means only 0.0048% of police per year. WOW. Even lower.

Let's assume a lot of it doesn't get reported or found out about, let's multiply that 0.0048% number ten-fold. That's still only 0.048% of police.


Yeah. Ok. Keep telling me all police are corrupt or brutal...

reply to post by AgentScmidt


while we are getting personal

i take it you're a middle class white guy

he was reaching for their guns?

if hes reaching for their guns, how do they shoot him with it what you're discussing is the most hollywood
but i heard he reached for and took the taser, i never knew a taser was the same thing as a 45

its interesting also you just make statements about what fights you know ive been in
where did you get your experience from again?

if the taser wont stop them and doesnt do anything, why was the taser there?

its interesting you mention the old west cuz honestly with what ive personally seen from cops itd be better if it was the old west cuz then itd be a fair fight

how do you personally know ANYTHING about what happened there, how do you know ANYTHING about what this guy did other then what the cops say he did
you talk about history lessons
well then youd know the only things we KNOW about history is what came from those who won when they took over, history shows the victors side not the truth

thats something you would know in trying to correct me about ww2

if anyones defending anyone youre defending the cops which is proven because rather then just give facts you try to get personal if you KNEw anything then youd know psychology proves that your actions are defensive

you dont think police brutality is far too often? take a look at the news im not even going to address that one as you're obviously stuck in your ways and too ignorant to understand any other possibilities

3 cops 3 guns 1 guy no gun what guns he going to use to kill those cops?

and if that guy can get the gun from that cop

that cop had no place being a cop in the 1st place

like i said train em better
get rid of their gang style and implement better laws
i look forward to any debate from intellectuals rather then attacks from people with ulterior agendas


edited to add id like to hear more from cops? are u specifically trained to kill everytime you draw your gun and if that is the case why is that acceptable why do we allow that in ALL situations when not ALL situations of a person being murdered by a cop involves the person having a weapon that can kill the cop

if someone has no gun what right does a cop have to use his not only to protect himself but to be lethal also?

[edit on 9-6-2008 by Dramey]

Originally posted by Dramey
reply to post by xxpigxx

 

since you were a cop my question to you or any other cop is dont police have weapons training? would you not agree that in almost all cases where the victim does not have a gun that is would be fairly reasonable to expect if a officer has to use violent force wouldnt he have the time/training/knowledge/abilitiy to use this force without being lethal?

I'll answer for him, I'm not an officer yet but currently in Academy.

Officers are trained if they use their gun, they are using it to kill. They are trained to shoot in the chest, and no where else. It's a last resort but sometimes needed to save the officer's life (and probably the lives of others - if the maniac is going to kill a cop, he would probably no qualms killing other people after he kills the cop.)

Yes, if the officers feel the gun is not needed, other non-lethal methods are used, like the taser, WHICH WAS USED in this case, but had no effect on the suspect because he was obviously high on drugs and immune to it.

If the taser can not bring a druggie down, the baton/ASP is not going to do a damned thing either. And if that druggie is charging at you attacking you and trying to grab your weapons, you only have one choice left, and that is to shoot him.

It's his life or yours, and he was the one that committed crimes, not you. Sorry, but I will go home to see my family and the criminal will not.


[edit on 9-6-2008 by AgentScmidt]

reply to post by AgentScmidt


just for the record i want to say i agree with you about the fact that if its between a perp and a cop the cop deserves to live, but like i said far too often (maybe its .0001 percent or whatever like you said but in my book its too much) the perp is killed when the officer didnt really have legit fear for his life

This is the way I look at it. It starts out 2 vs 1. They shoot the taser and it fails, the man yanks the cord and grabs the taser. Now if he is able to reload it before TWO trained police men react doesn't that say something about the cops?

So now its 2 vs 1 with one cop missing a tazer while the other one still has his as well as a baton and mace. Obviously the perp didn't get a tazer shot and if he did he would most likely aim for the biggest target which would be chest. Don't cops where flak? Can tazers penetrate kevlar?

So cop 3 shows up and sees two men struggling to subdue one man. Now there is 6 sets of hands and two available tazers as well as batons, mace.

I don't understand how the perp had the upper hand in the situation at all. He takes the tazer he still has to physically deal with two trained cops. Knock him on his ass for petes sake. And if he does manage to reload the tazer and hit a cop guess what, THERE ARE STILL TWO COPS AVAILABLE. Your telling me he would have enough time to reload the tazer, fire and subdue one cop, grab that officers weapon and fire at the other cops...All before cop one and two are able to react?

Once again this is going of the reported story so this isn't 100 percent what happened and could be totally wrong, im just trying to form what happened from the evidence provided.

reply to post by xxpigxx



Well thank you Mr xxpigxx. You are the first and so far only one to address my tazer question.

Now in truth all tazers can be reloaded, but it takes time. Even those front loading tazers are only good for one shot per load. And in the middle of a scuffle reloading your tazer might not be as wise as just reaching for a different
weapon such as mace or the gun.

Even if the perp had unlimited tazer round he can still only taze one person at a time. A cool headed cop should of been able to help his partner... instead one guy took on two and the both of them had to wait for the back up of officer number three...........

this story is fishy.

reply to post by AgentScmidt


last thing id like to say to you which i dont mean as a attack i only mean it as constructive criticism

yes drugs can cause people to do things they normally wouldnt and give them enhanced ability

but you talk about things like being shot in the legs etc are hollywood, well your remark about the guy on pcp is hollywood to the extreme

does that happen in real life, yea
does it happen to every pcp case nope
you should learn more about the truth about drugs and not just the bs government propaganda that you are being taught in your training

Originally posted by Dramey

while we are getting personal

i take it you're a middle class white guy

Yes I am, and what does that have to do with anything?

Originally posted by Dramey
he was reaching for their guns?

The article says he was reaching for their weapons, I'm assuming it was their guns.

Originally posted by Dramey
if hes reaching for their guns, how do they shoot him with it

Do you bother to read the story? There were 3 officers. The man is obviously not an octupus with 8 arms and was only grabbing the gun of 1 officer. Another officer who was not having his gun grabbed, is the one that shot him.

Originally posted by Dramey
if the taser wont stop them and doesnt do anything, why was the taser there?

Are they mind readers and were supposed to know the guy was high on drugs? Tasers work fine on people that aren't jacked up on drugs/steroids and are practically walking zombies (not the slow kind of zombies, think more like the ones in "I am legend").

Originally posted by Dramey
its interesting you mention the old west cuz honestly with what ive personally seen from cops itd be better if it was the old west cuz then itd be a fair fight

Yes and there's a reason that form of law enforcement is archaic - because it didn't work. Why give a criminal, who has broken laws and wants to kill people, a fair fight? Police jobs are bringing him, not having a duel.

Originally posted by Dramey
how do you personally know ANYTHING about what happened there, how do you know ANYTHING about what this guy did other then what the cops say he did

And how do you know the cops are lying? I'm assuming everything was on tape as most police encounters are.

Originally posted by Dramey
well then youd know the only things we KNOW about history is what came from those who won when they took over, history shows the victors side not the truth

Correct and remember we won the war vs the "evil" Nazis that you brought up before.

Originally posted by Dramey
if anyones defending anyone youre defending the cops which is proven

Well, yes I am.

Originally posted by Dramey
and if that guy can get the gun from that cop

that cop had no place being a cop in the 1st place

He didn't get the gun from the cop, which is why he's dead.

reply to post by AgentScmidt


In order for this math to work you'll need more variables.

A bad cop won't get caught if hes working a desk and there is no camera, Not all of those 900,000 Officers are in a position which would allow them the opportunity to do something and get caught...

Well need to figure in the total number of Police stops, And out of those stops how many of them resulted in a complaint of civil suit against that Officer.

Also Race and Age of the alleged victim would be important.


[edit on 9-6-2008 by C0le]

Originally posted by Dramey

yes drugs can cause people to do things they normally wouldnt and give them enhanced ability

but you talk about things like being shot in the legs etc are hollywood, well your remark about the guy on pcp is hollywood to the extreme

does that happen in real life, yea
does it happen to every pcp case nope
you should learn more about the truth about drugs and not just the bs government propaganda that you are being taught in your training

I've taken many police ride-alongs and seen things with my own eyes. You can sign up for a police ride-along at your local station some day if you want, I think it would be a good learning experience for you.

As for the guy running with 2 broken ankles, yes I saw it, and it's not hard to imagine that when you are completely high on drugs and feeling no pain, that it wouldn't be hard to do. It's just an example I was using any way. Tasers often do not work on people high on drugs, which is why this man in this particular story was able to rip the taser probes out of his body and charge at the police.

Originally posted by C0le


Well need to figure in the total number of Police stops, And out of those stops how many of them resulted in a complaint of civil suit against that Officer.

Well I think you just narrowed down about 99% of police encounters then. Let's face it, no one wants to admit they broke the law and no one wants to pay the fine or serve the time.

Would you honestly say to an officer "Oops, yes I broke the law officer. Please take me in and let me serve 2 years."

OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T LOL.

And the easiest way out of trouble? Claim the officer was a racist, a sexist, verbally assaulted you, wanted you to bribe him, etc, etc. After all, it's a lot safer than running from the police, and a lot cheaper than hiring an attourney.

Fortunately, almost all police stops are recorded and 99.9% of bogus claims get thrown out.

Originally posted by Spock Shock
Cops really gotta stop using this crap to take on unarmed people, why not use a lasso or something, a net even, you dont have to shock someone, what if they had a pacemaker or something... idiots

What people need to do is stop robbing other people, and the cops would have no reason to do anything. If he was breaking into YOUR house, stealing YOUR stuff, possibly threatening YOUR life (we don't know how far he would have gone if not stopped) I think your opinion would jump on the other side of the fence faster than a sheep after greener pastures.
I know if I was a cop, my first priority is MY safety, not some thug's. I don't care if he was stealing a garden hose, he didn't get shot for that. He got shot for attacking armed police officers.
There are scum in this world that aren't in the grip of the government, and it sounds to me like they just rid us of one. Good for them.
Under martial law, I might have a different tune to sing, but in this case, it sounds like they did what needed to be done.


[edit on 6/9/2008 by cmongo4]

reply to post by AgentScmidt


in what way are all police encounters taped or documented?

do u mean the camera mounted in their car?

if not what other way? and what state is that in?

i know in california and ny that cops dont carry about tape recorders or video cameras to document things


and you mentioned ride a longs

that would be educational for me if i didnt live it everyday

im not a poverty stricken person
nor am i lucky enough to be middle class, im in between all of that, and yet i am truly a lucky man as i have been able to experience the best of both worlds and everything in between

i grew up in a poor area and yet was fortunate enough to attend a great college and live in both very good areas and very bad areas of southern california along with the bad area i grew up in in ny. At one point i lived in channel islands ca at another point i was forced to live on langdon off of roscoe. if you know california you know the vast difference between this 2 areas

the only reason i say that is you mention ride alongs unfortunatly ive probably had more experience with cops both on the good and bad side then you have had even with your career (which i wish you the best of luck in)


its these experiences in my life that ive seen 1st hand and told 2nd hand that lead me to the statements i make about the majority of police i have experience dealing with

i dont mean situations just happening to me as i have only had a few bad encounters with police personally but i reference everything that ive seen from police throughout my life and unfortunately as time goes on police are becoming more and more of a gang feared by the community rather then the protectors they should be

reply to post by Dramey


For a reply to you, without me trying to attack agent smith, Cops are not taught to shoot to kill on every occasion I am not sure what academy he is going to but that is incorrect and does not fall with in the guidelines of the supreme court decsions on the use of force....Yes I am a cop. You draw a weapon and use it to stop life threatening activity, and you are taught to shoot at targets center mass.

Were there other options, I dont know I was not there. It is easy to second guess the situation, but for all the people saying the officers should do this or that, the actions on law officers are given by policy that has been upheld by supreme court decisions and the line is not fine it is very clear cut. If in fact this suspect was attempting to gain an upper hand in a manner that could have turned into a life threatening situation to the officers they can and should respond.

Once again this was not some choir boy who had one too many to drink and stumbled out of his car with some foul language, this guy was fighting with the officers and had already taken a taser. the taser we use at our department can be used as a touch weapon even after the prongs are deployed. we have the X26 model you could look it up this shows his mindset was with a purposeful, meaning it was his concious object or desire to harm and or subdue the officers...it is amazing to me to see that this is so much of an argument. It is clear what his intent was, the only question is one that if it was answered would mean if he overcame the officers what would he have done next. To me it is not worth it to ponder.

As far as the legal ramifications for the officer there will be an investigation to determine that and if there are any doubts in the eyes of the department there will be charges and a jury trial.