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Hitler Was NOT an Atheist and Humanism Does NOT Equal Communism

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posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:06 AM
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This is something I've seen more and more of lately here on ATS, and frankly it sickens me. The religious people here trying to use Hitler as a deterrence of atheism, hinting that what Hitler did was because he was atheist.

I've had a few threads on here about humanism, and people who don't bother to research what the differences are, start accusing me of being communist. And then, they use Hitler to help back that up.

What incredible ignorance this is. Hitler believed, as he wrote in Mein Kampf, that he was doing the right thing by the Lord. That's right ladies and gentlemen, Hitler was RELIGIOUS, so using him in your sick and twisted anti-atheist because this is what it leads to threads, is a joke. I think it's really disturbing that I've now seen Hitler mentioned several times as an example for religious people to back religion.

I believe in Humanism, and people accuse me of following this same socialist path because Humanism doesn't normally allow room for God, however Hitler is a great example of a RELIGIOUS socialist, so therefore, wouldn't that make theism vs. atheism irrelevant? This is closed mind, uneducated thinking which I'm seeing more and more of here on ATS, and I'm getting extremely tired of the disinfo being spread around here as of late.

Please, all you religious people who think Hitler was an atheist, DO YOUR RESEARCH before using him in any more examples.




posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:23 AM
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actually, hitler believed himself to be a god. his mission was to create a race of superbeings from the arian (spelling?) race.... he believed that anyone being of pure arian blood was a god. so, he didn't believe in A god, he believed in many gods. i just watched a lengthy documentary on this the other night and found the whole thing fascinating in a sick kind of way.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 04:49 AM
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Yeah Hitler was into Eugenics,and despite the streak of evil,he was a vegetarian and didnt like pollution etc etc Anyway,yes its funny the amount of times religious people bring that up in an atheism discussion.One thing ive always wondered though is why the world holocaust was used,jordan maxwell brings it up...and its a word in the Bible and means a burnt offering,strange,but im going off topic.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 07:34 AM
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I don't think Hitler was an atheist, though it is notoriously hard to pin down his actual religious beliefs. Like his conception of Fascism, it seems to have been a chaotic mess of ideas that at times did not align or even contradicted each other.

He borrowed from Nietzsche for example, whose anti-Christianism is well known and noted. But equally, he sought the support of both Catholic and Protestant churches during his elections and early years and of course made deals with the Vatican. Then again, he espoused a Pagan theology via Alfred Rosenberg (I think) trying to take Germany back to its pre-Christian roots.

Like I said, a mess.

His main moves against the Churches seem to have been after he consolidated power and were attempts to destroy other institutions the German population may have held loyalty towards, and who may have threatened him.

Equally, a good case has been made for Fascism being a 'political religion' of sorts as well. Its symbolism, messianic fervour, ritualism and emphasis on the irrational all suggest something more akin to theology than political science.

As for Communism...philosophers such as John Gray have made the case that the worst aspects of Communism, namely its millenarianism and utopianism were lifted directy from a Christian cosmology. The idea that the 'End Times' were near and that the world would soon be remade perfectly is common to both philosophies.

I suspect most people who link atheism with communism are religious nutters who are being dishonest and trying to score cheap points. I'm agnostic myself, but I tend towards atheism, and many of the arguments levelled against atheists by religious adherents are nothing short of ridiculous slander.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 07:55 AM
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Hitler was anything he needed to be be to whoever to further his own goals. He may have professed himself to be a christian, but that's like satam himself claiming to be a saint, it means nothing. Actions speak much louder than words, and what do Hitlers actions say about him? He was no Christian, in the sense of being a follower of Christ.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 08:42 AM
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bigbert you have failed to properly research humanism.

From the scholarly book: Reader in Marxist Philosophy: From the Writings of Marx, Engels, and Lenin
By Howard Selsam, Harry Martel



This communism, as fully developed naturalism, equals humanism, as fully developed humanism equals naturalism; it is the genuine resolution of the conflict between man and nature and man and man-
google books

Humanism is most definitely a communist philosophy - they are two peas in a pod. Communism is simply the left wing political ideation of humanist philosophy.

a brief 3 minute video - make sure to read the final credits



Communism is the left wing of humanism. Fascism is the right wing of humanism.

Wrong on Hitler as well. Hitler was born Catholic - So what? That proves nothing, many people reject their religious upbringing just as he did. Catholicism teaches non violence- it is even against the death penalty. Hitler's Table Talk, a revealing collection of the Hitler's private opinions proves Hitler to be rabidly anti-religious. Hitler promised that "through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity." He called Christianity one of the great "scourges" of history, and said of the Germans, "Let's be the only people who are immunized against this disease." He even blamed the Jews for inventing Christianity. He also condemned Christianity for its opposition to evolution. Hitler criticized the Christian values of equality, compassion, and grace which he identified with weakness. Hitler's leading advisers: Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann — were atheists who hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence in Germany.



Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure.

Being weighed down by a superstitious past, men are afraid of things that can't, or can't yet, be explained — that is to say, of the unknown. If anyone has needs of a metaphysical nature, I can't satisfy them with the Party's Program. Time will go by until the moment when science can answer all the questions.

Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this respect. And that's why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline.

Hitler on Religion




[edit on 6/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 09:04 AM
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I think that those problems start because somehow people from both sides think that Humanism means atheism. This is one of the reasons for all the comparisons with communists and such. But humanism merely says that there is no need in following religions/believing in God to make moral decisions/actions. 'No need' does not mean that those "traditional" approaches are wrong/forbidden.
But here is a problem - there will be extremists always and everywhere and i have no problem imagining future Humanists in order to improve humanity ,according to their views of course, doing the same crimes as were done throughout the history.
Humanism naturally is not Communism because Humanism is much earlier idea , but first Communists took a lot from Humanist philosophers and later Communists did very very nasty things for common good based on first communists. Important to remember.

So just because it sounds great and bright and moral people are and were attracted to it makes no guaranties that in the future blind use of "for the greater cause" will not result in greater bloodshed.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


Whammy, you are the definition of 'sheeple'. Someone who finds something and chooses to just believe it without any research of your own. And then to top it off, you think that by posting an excerpt from an external source that you'll gain more credibility. I can post just as many excerpts as you can saying the opposite thing, so it does nothing to help your case.

You completely ignore my writings and the opportunity to challenge your clouded beliefs. You also use your incredibly one-sided logic to only see what you want to see. Despite the facts that Humanism and Communism DO share a few similar beliefs (which is the only thing you seem to have locked in on), you completely ignore the differences between the two, and post excerpts to back your side up. I challenge you to stop focusing on the similarities to try and force your point, and instead take a few minutes to look up the differences. I know you can.

Here, take a look at J. Edgar Hoover's Wiki bio. You'll see that he was EXTREMELY anti-Communist. He conducted an investigation into the 'American Humanist Association' and determined that they are in fact NOT Communist. For some reason though, it would appear that you believe that you have done more research on the matter than the head of the FBI's official investigation into it. Perhaps that could tell you something about the amount of research you claim to have done, yet are obviously wrong. Perhaps you shouldn't insult me about my amount of research before you do your own.

And as far as Hitler goes, I never said he was a Christian, so good job debunking something that was never said. Bravo! Hitler was indeed RELIGIOUS. That doesn't necessarily make him a Christian, now does it? And perhaps you should also review some of the Mein Kampf words as well. Do some research on this, it's very easy to find Hitler was NOT an Atheist, of course, neither was he a Christian; however, he DID use Christianity and people's gullibility of religion as a weapon to help him eliminate the Jews by claiming that they were the ones who killed God.

No more pointless excerpts. Say what you want without posting something I can very easily post an alternative to.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by bigbert81
 


Nice try at side stepping the communist connection. Gee wonder why Hoover investigated them at all? Maybe because it's a communist idea?


The "American Humanist Association" is just a group of people it does not represent or define "humanism" which is an atheistic philosophy started by thinkers like Marx. Truly it is a religion as determined by the supreme court in the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins. So it's a communist derived atheistic religion.

The only "sheeple" is you bigbert. You are singing NWO hymns at ATS




N.W.O. Plan
by Dr. Adrian H. Krieg

This is an outline of the general plan by the New world Order for all of us. Numerous portions of this plan have already or are presently being implemented. For a full understanding see:
The Satori and the New Mandarins
July 4th - 20016 - The Last Independence Day
Our Political System

No Martyrs: people just disappear!
All listed methods and procedures are dual: All appear to have a benign singular result, but when taken together demonstrate an entirely different purpose.

Money and Banking
Elimination of paper currency RFID credit cards later implants
No savings allowed [already working]
Tracking of all sales [done]
Altering the basis of currency backing [done. We only have fiat Money now]
Altering Fiat money issuance [done all new currency is
Issued by the Federal Reserve
Not a bank (no backing)
RFID implants [in process tests compete]
Centralized world currency First regionalized EC/ FTAA then world wide [partial]
In Europe the Euro and North and South America the dollar

Elections
Manipulation of elections through financial methods [done, 45$ million cost to get into primary]
Manipulation of Elections by voter fraud [done]
Elimination of individual candidacy. Replacement by voting for a party[EC in process]
Replacement of elected officials by administrators appointed [in process]
Destruction of pole accessibility [done by un-realizable access requirements]
FEC news access elimination [done third party candidates
not to have access to media]

Population Control
Contraception availability [done 100% through UN]
Tax funded abortion [done]
Suppression of medical cures for diseases [done]
Euthanasia legalization [in process]
Non-affordable health cares for elderly [done]
Euthanasia [In process]
Control over beneficial drug therapies [done FDA]
Reduced Doctor availability by reduction of numbers and access [done]
New man made diseases [done AIDS Ebola etc.]
Acceptance of homosexuality [done]
Homosexual partnership [in process (now legal in VT]

Education
Dumbing down [done through Goals 2000 & outcome base education]
Elimination of Ethics and Morals [done]
Cultural Marxisem to change attitudes [done through Political Correctness]
Elimination of Religion [done]
Required introduction of Secular Humanism [done]
Removal of parental interference [done through economic (income) requirements]
Controlling access to information through selected censorship [done]
Revising history to current goals [done]
Federalizing all education [in process]

Justice
Changing laws through Judicial Activism [in process]
Issuing illegal edicts [in process through Exec. Orders]
Utilization of false precedence use to alter legal meaning [in process]
Issuing more laws than can be read [being implemented annually]
Selective enforcement (to use as a selective tool of terror) [done]
National ID [in process, SS #]
The use of precedence to make law [in process]

Military
Elimination of all drafts [done almost world wide]
Merging military with police functions [in process]
Professional military only [done]
Merging national defense forces into a world military [in process]
Requiring militaries to swear obedience to international control [in process]

Law
Total elimination of gun ownership [in process 2500+ laws on book USA,
Completed UK & Australia.]
Selective enforcement of unintelligible statute [in process]
Federalization of police functions [in process]
Elimination of local jurisdictions [in process]
Unintelligible tax statutes, for selective enforcement [done and expanding]
Law confusion [done (IRS) (BATF) etc.]

World
UN Court [In operation in Holland]
Elimination of patriotism [done through vilification]
Elimination of ethnic acceptance [done through vilification]
World military not subject to national interests [in process]
Citizen desensitization [in process thorough selective wars & entertainment]
Merging of military and police functions [in process through the UN] International tax for UN [several failed attempts to date (air travel & currency transactions & Internet]
Selective starvation through food control [Somalia, Ethiopia & USSR remnants]
Religiously based Wars [1990-2000 over 2 million Christians]

General
The destruction of national constitutions and bills of citizen's rights.
The creation of false and misleading news through information overloading
The destruction of established laws by judicial branches by judicial activism (JA)
The alteration of societal norms through Cultural Marxisem (PC)
The change to international laws by local legislative encroachment of local law
Alteration of attitude by false science environmentalism
Control of all media for propaganda purpose
Control of all finance to control governments and people
Control of all education to control the outcome of their thinking
Control of all religion and the change of those to pantheism.

Environment
Global cooling (new ice age) [done and changed to:]
Global warming hoax [done]
CO2 hoax [done]
Ozone Hole hoax [done]
Food shortage hoax [done]
Acid rain hoax [done]
World over-population hoax [done]
Raw materiel shortage hoax [done]
Oil price and Gas price gouging [in progress up 75% '99]
Oil shortage hoax [in process]
www.kriegbooks.com...



[edit on 6/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 




Nice try at side stepping the communist connection. Gee wonder why Hoover investigated them at all? Maybe because it's a communist idea?


Uggggh. You just don't get it, do you? Nor do you apparently like to read. Hmmm, why would Hoover investigate them at all when people like you fail to research the DIFFERENCES and continue down this narrow path?

And the ' side stepping the communist connection' huh? Feel free to go back and read the post again, because you are being led by blind eyes. Do you even know what communism is? Do you know what humanism is? I've already stated that there ARE similarities between the 2, but YOU have side-stepped my challenge and post once again. There are differences between the 2 which you fail to realize.

You have ALSO failed to realize that the connection you are seeing is only part of the picture. You are forgetting about Christian socialism, or other religious socialism, which causes the bridges you have created to deteriorate. You are picking and choosing, something a Christian is best at.



"humanism" which is an atheistic philosophy started by thinkers like Marx...So it's a communist derived atheistic religion.


This truly goes to the heart of your lack of research in the matter.

You really have no idea how Humanism came about, nor the actual history of it. Humanism goes much, much further back than Marx. So to say that it was created by people who believed in the same thinking as communism is inaccurate and assumed, but not factual.

Study further.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 01:52 PM
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I don't know which side I'm supporting by posting this, and until I can figure it out for myself, I have no argument either way.

Here's the definitions:

Humanism


Wiki - Humanism

Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities — particularly rationality.[1][2] It is a component of a variety of more specific philosophical systems and is incorporated into several religious schools of thought. Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on belief without reason, the supernatural, or texts of allegedly divine origin. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial.[3]


Dictionary.com - Humanism

hu·man·ism Audio Help /ˈhyuməˌnɪzəm or, often, ˈyu-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hyoo-muh-niz-uhm or, often, yoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. any system or mode of thought or action in which human interests, values, and dignity predominate.
2. devotion to or study of the humanities.
3. (sometimes initial capital letter) the studies, principles, or culture of the humanists.
4. Philosophy. a variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God.



Communism



Wiki - Communism

Communism is a socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of the means of production.[1] It is usually considered to be a branch of socialism, a broad group of social and political ideologies, which draws on the various political and intellectual movements with origins in the work of theorists of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution[2], although socialist historians say they are older. Communism attempts to offer an alternative to the problems believed to be inherent with capitalist economies and the legacy of imperialism and nationalism. Communism states that the only way to solve these problems would be for the working class, or proletariat, to replace the wealthy bourgeoisie, which is currently the ruling class, in order to establish a peaceful, free society, without classes, or government.[3] The dominant forms of communism, such as Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, Trotskyism and Luxemburgism, are based on Marxism, but non-Marxist versions of communism (such as Christian communism and anarchist communism) also exist and are growing in importance since the fall of the Soviet Union.


Dictionary.com - Communism

com·mu·nism Audio Help /ˈkɒmyəˌnɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kom-yuh-niz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
3. (initial capital letter) the principles and practices of the Communist party.
4. communalism.



Atheism



Wiki - Atheism

Atheism, as an explicit position, either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.[2] When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities,[3] alternatively called nontheism.[4] Although atheism is often equated with irreligion, some religious philosophies, such as Jainism, secular theology and some varieties of Buddhism such as Theravada do not include belief in a personal god as a tenet of the religion.

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism[5] and naturalism,[6] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.[7]

The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion.[8] With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists.


Dictionary.com - Atheism

a·the·ism Audio Help /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
[Origin: 1580–90; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ism]


This is an interesting argument. I'm agnostic, myself, however, I do find things like this very intriguing.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


And now apparently, you didn't feel your first version of the post had enough propaganda in it, so you had to fill it with more BS.

Amazing, so now you're using theories and propaganda BS to back up your claims? You would not get very far in an actual debate, friend.

I mean really...how low is it for someone to post something so ridiculous and unproven as means to back up their points.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for an apology in regards to the Hitler subject which you have now dropped because you realized that you jumped in with absolute haste which caused you to look foolish.

An apology that you do not read my posts, and are too quick to try and become someone in this thread will do just fine.

(see, I'm laughing at you too)



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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Forget it. You have no apology coming. It's clear from Hitlers private writings that his religious talk was all propaganda to appeal to the German masses. He viewed Darwin's ideas as supreme and belief in God to be primitive. He was an atheist. You are falling right into the net of the power elites whose stated goal was to indoctrinate the masses with secular humanism. Nice Job helping them bert .



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Rogue Element
I don't think Hitler was an atheist, though it is notoriously hard to pin down his actual religious beliefs. Like his conception of Fascism, it seems to have been a chaotic mess of ideas that at times did not align or even contradicted each other.

He borrowed from Nietzsche for example, whose anti-Christianism is well known and noted. But equally, he sought the support of both Catholic and Protestant churches during his elections and early years and of course made deals with the Vatican. Then again, he espoused a Pagan theology via Alfred Rosenberg (I think) trying to take Germany back to its pre-Christian roots.

Like I said, a mess.

His main moves against the Churches seem to have been after he consolidated power and were attempts to destroy other institutions the German population may have held loyalty towards, and who may have threatened him.

Equally, a good case has been made for Fascism being a 'political religion' of sorts as well. Its symbolism, messianic fervour, ritualism and emphasis on the irrational all suggest something more akin to theology than political science.

As for Communism...philosophers such as John Gray have made the case that the worst aspects of Communism, namely its millenarianism and utopianism were lifted directy from a Christian cosmology. The idea that the 'End Times' were near and that the world would soon be remade perfectly is common to both philosophies.

I suspect most people who link atheism with communism are religious nutters who are being dishonest and trying to score cheap points. I'm agnostic myself, but I tend towards atheism, and many of the arguments levelled against atheists by religious adherents are nothing short of ridiculous slander.


Excellent post.

Yet for some reason, they'd believe atheism to be the more gullible of the 2.

Once again, great post.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:25 PM
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with NWO propagandizing on ATS!!!!

This dude BIGbert has posted this same propaganda about secular humanism and other NWO disinformation over and over. Eitther he is sold out or ignorant. I cant keep up with him... Nice Job keeping it real whammy.

Humanism is the NWO & communist religion do not drink the kool aid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



“New World Order”

This is a new school of thought offered by Mr Mahmood Khan Utumankhail, wherein for the practical practices of this school of thought a new Global movement namely “The Movement for Humanism” has started, in which every human is indiscriminately welcomed to participate. As in the perspective of individuality every man has individual status therefore every individual ought to fulfill their individual responsibilities, and play their role for the elimination of social evils and fulfillment of living needs.
cuosism.cfsites.org...



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 




I think that those problems start because somehow people from both sides think that Humanism means atheism. This is one of the reasons for all the comparisons with communists and such. But humanism merely says that there is no need in following religions/believing in God to make moral decisions/actions. 'No need' does not mean that those "traditional" approaches are wrong/forbidden.


Very, very well put, ZeroKnowledge.

Whammy, are you getting this? Are you starting to see how you might be wrong here?

Humanism accepts individual beliefs and freedoms. I'm glad someone else shows enough knowledge here on ATS to recognize that as well.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Earthscum
 


Thanks for posting this, Earthscum.

Perhaps it will allow some people on here to better understand the similarities AND the differences between each subject.

Good post.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by Yosimitie Sam
 


I have an idea, Sam, why don't you try backing your side with actual facts instead of theory propaganda BS which you and Whammy have now resorted to.

And I post it because there are several people who are getting misconceptions about it because people like you fail to do the necessary research.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:31 PM
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Whammy, are you getting this? Are you starting to see how you might be wrong here?


No



Humanism accepts individual beliefs and freedoms. I'm glad someone else shows enough knowledge here on ATS to recognize that as well.

And you just believe anything that is written down? I always told you it looks good on paper but SO WHAT.

That definition is new age dreaming at best - more accurately a LIE.

On paper Communism was a workers paradise but it didn't exactly work that way did it.

Same ideas new wrapper.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by bigbert81
I've had a few threads on here about humanism, and people who don't bother to research what the differences are, start accusing me of being communist.


Dont worry...imagine the hard time they must give to someone who would call themselves a transhumanist.


Personally I say labels are good old fashioned ego stories which no longer do us justice.
To often we get lost in the words to which they point.

(To which your post seems to point.)

Peace

dAlen



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