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Topic started on 7-6-2008 @ 04:23 PM by Hollywood11
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Reptiles turned into birds? Yeah right. Alot of people claim that there are reptile/bird missing links in China, but they always end up being found to
be fake or misinterpretations of the data.
www.pureinsight.org...
 Another "Missing Link" Fossil Found to be a Fake
Zhou Xin
[PureInsight.org] On November 21, 2002, the journal Nature published an article named "Archaeoraptor's Better Half: The Other Component of the
Infamous Fossil Forgery is Identified as a Fish-Eating Bird." (VOl 420, 2002) After careful measurements and morphological study, scientists
concluded that the Archaeoraptor fossil that was once proclaimed as a key intermediate between carnivorous dinosaurs and birds is now known to be a
forgery. It is a chimera formed of bird and dromaeosaur parts.
Ancient bird scientists Zhonghe Zhou and Fucheng Zhang, from the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology of the Chinese Academy of
Science, and Julia A. Clarke from the New York based Museum of Natural History investigated the piece of fossil and confirmed that the Archaeoraptor
fossil is a fake. It is composed of the tail of a dromaeosaur and a nearly intact Yanornis martini skeleton. It was previously claimed that this
fossil had been smuggled from inland China to America. In 1999, National Geographic reported on it in detail and called it a new species between
dinosaurs and birds.
Using X-ray technology, the Archaeoraptor fossil was found to consist of two to five specimens from two or more species. Parts other than the
dromaeosaur tail are strikingly similar to Yanornis martini in terms of morphology, body ratio, and anatomy, and completely different from those of a
dromaeosaur. In the stomach of a recently discovered Yanornis specimen, scientists found fish remains, which indicates that Yanornis fed on fish.
Over the past one hundred years, Darwin's Theory of Evolution has dominated. Many phenomena cannot be explained according to the theory, but
scientists still try to defend it. People try to find the missing links in order to validate the theory of evolution, but so far, no conclusive
intermediate species fossils had been found. The "Archaeoraptor" fossil is just another case of this.
external image
Figure: Analysis of the Archaeoraptor forgery and Yanrnis martini specimen.
a: the avian half of the Archaeoraptor fossil
b: Yanrnis martini holotype specimen
c: Insert: recently found Yanrnis martini and the fish remains in it.
www.worldnetdaily.com...
 The ridiculous reptile to bird theory
And then there is common sense. In a popular evolutionary explanation, here's how reptiles evolved into birds: They wanted to eat flying insects that
were out of reach. So the reptiles began leaping, and flapping their arms to get higher. Over millions of years, their limbs transformed into wings by
increments, their tough reptilian scales gradually sprouting soft feathers.
But the theory suffers when scrutinized. According to natural selection, a physical trait is acquired because it enhances survival.
The problem is, wings would have no genuine survival value until they reached the point of flight. Birds' wings and feathers are perfectly designed
instruments. Those with crippled or clipped wings cannot fly, and are bad candidates for survival. Likewise, the intermediate creature whose limb was
half leg, half wing, would fare poorly -- it couldn't fly, nor walk well. Natural selection would eliminate it without a second thought.
Let's raise an even more fundamental question: Why aren't reptiles today developing feathers? Why aren't fish today growing little legs, trying to
adapt to land? Shouldn't evolution be ongoing?
The complete lack of a fossil record
Supposedly invertebrates evolved into the first fish. But despite millions of fossils from both groups, transitional fossils linking them are
missing.
Insects, rodents, bats, pterodactyls and numerous other life forms appear in the fossil record with no trace of fossils showing how they developed.
The main point: If evolutionary theory is true, we should find the innumerable transitional forms Darwin predicted would be in the geologic record. We
shouldn't find just a handful, but billions of them. Instead, the fossil record shows animals complete -- not in developmental stages -- the very
first time they are seen. And this is just what we would expect if the Bible is right and God created animals whole.
James Perloff is the author of Tornado in a Junkyard: The Relentless Myth of Darwinism
Mod Edit: New External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.
Impotant:Using content from other websites on ATS. Please review this link.
[edit on 22-6-2008 by GAOTU789]
[edit on 22-6-2008 by GAOTU789]
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reply posted on 7-6-2008 @ 07:38 PM by SlyCM
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Archeoraptor?
Fortunately, the dino-bird theory can withstand the loss of one "link".
Archeopteryx, Protarcheopteryx, Microraptor, Bambiraptor, Caudipteryx, Sinornithosaurus, Sinosauropteryx, Ornitholestes, and Iberomesornis are all
links between birds and dinosaurs (in reality there is no real dividing line between the two). They and birds share many characteristics, but not all
paleontoligists support the idea that birds are directly descended from dinosaurs; some see more evidence for a line of descent originating in the
basal archosaurs, that diverged from the theropod line early on. Either way, both birds and mammals are descended from "reptiles" (too broad a word
in my opinion), which are in turn descended from primitive amphibian tetrapods, which are descended from the Sarcopterygii (lobe finned fish).
Feathers are good for more than flight. They are just as effective for display and warmth. Small, light dinosaurs that had these feathers are thought
to have at first excelled not at flight but at gliding, and the advantage went to those that could glide further, until they could eventually fly.
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reply posted on 20-6-2008 @ 07:33 AM by Fibonacci11235
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sorry to make this just a one liner but absence of proof does not mean proof of absence.
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reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 07:03 AM by Conspiriology
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Originally posted by SlyCM
Archeoraptor?
Fortunately, the dino-bird theory can withstand the loss of one "link".
Archeopteryx, Protarcheopteryx, Microraptor, Bambiraptor, Caudipteryx, Sinornithosaurus, Sinosauropteryx, Ornitholestes, and Iberomesornis are all
links between birds and dinosaurs (in reality there is no real dividing line between the two). They and birds share many characteristics, but not all
paleontoligists support the idea that birds are directly descended from dinosaurs; some see more evidence for a line of descent originating in the
basal archosaurs, that diverged from the theropod line early on. Either way, both birds and mammals are descended from "reptiles" (too broad a word
in my opinion), which are in turn descended from primitive amphibian tetrapods, which are descended from the Sarcopterygii (lobe finned fish).
Feathers are good for more than flight. They are just as effective for display and warmth. Small, light dinosaurs that had these feathers are thought
to have at first excelled not at flight but at gliding, and the advantage went to those that could glide further, until they could eventually fly.

Fortunately, the dino-bird theory can withstand the loss of one "link".

The Whole theory can't withstand the weight of it's own BS anymore sly what are you talking about
You may as well call the entire dino to bird theory fake. It didn't happen period. This is just more speculation for macro-evolution in Darwinists
desperate attempts to prove a one species can become an entirely differen't species. In the case of Dino to Birds, the idea is absolutley ludicrous
like most of the so called "transitional forms" we see from Darwinists, these too have been so debunked that I would think they would have given up
on the idea by now.
 Many of the alleged ‘intermediates’ actually are fully formed, modern feathers, or structures that are not feathers at all.65 For example,
Sinosauropteryx ‘feathers’ are actually ‘filaments’.70–71
Other ancient fossil feather discoveries—such as on the oviraptorosaur Caudipteryx and Protarchaeopteryx—are ‘true feathers’.72 Touted by some
as a dinosaur, Caudipteryx has been dated to within the early Cretaceous, often estimated as 30 million years younger than Archaeopteryx.73
Evolutionary paleo-ornithologists Feduccia and Martin, staunch critics of the dinosaur-to-bird theory, believe that Protarchaeopteryx and Caudipteryx
are more likely to be flightless birds similar to ostriches.
They have birdlike teeth and lack the long tail seen in theropods. Caudipteryx even used gizzard stones like modern plant-eating birds, but unlike
theropods. Far from being ancestors of Archaeopteryx, cladistic evidence points (under evolutionary presuppositions) to their being birdlike (under
their own transforming paradigm), and secondarily flightless descendants of Archaeopteryx
It gets worse,
Much worse
 The leading paleo-ornithologist and evolutionary critic of the dino-to-bird dogma, Dr Alan Feduccia, who is an evolutionist himself, sounded a
note of caution about the ‘feathered dinosaurs’ in general in an interview with the evolutionary Discover magazine (below, emphasis added).3 It
certainly seems strange that all these ‘feathered dinosaurs’ come from a single province of China—the same place as the Archaeoraptor hoax came
from. Indeed, the holotype (first named specimen) of Microraptor was in fact part of this hoax!4 However, neither our case nor Feduccia’s against
previous ‘feathered dinosaurs’ has ever depended on this particular problem, and the same is true of Microraptor gui, as will be shown.
Discover: What about all the other evidence for feathered dinosaurs?
Feduccia: When we see actual feathers preserved on specimens, we need to carefully determine if we are looking at secondarily flightless birds that
have retained feathers and only superficially resemble dinosaurs, or if the specimens are in fact related to dinosaurs. That’s a difficult issue to
deal with right now, given the existence of fake fossils.
Discover: So far, only one feathered dinosaur, Archaeoraptor, has been publicly acknowledged as a forgery. You think there are others?
Feduccia: Archaeoraptor is just the tip of the iceberg. There are scores of fake fossils out there, and they have cast a dark shadow over the whole
field. When you go to these fossil shows, it’s difficult to tell which ones are faked and which ones are not. I have heard that there is a
fake-fossil factory in northeastern China, in Liaoning Province, near the deposits where many of these recent alleged feathered dinosaurs were found.
Journals like Nature don’t require specimens to be authenticated, and the specimens immediately end up back in China, so nobody can examine them.
They may be miraculous discoveries, they may be missing links as they are claimed, but there is no way to authenticate any of this stuff.
Discover: Why would anyone fake a fossil?
Feduccia: Money. The Chinese fossil trade has become a big business. These fossil forgeries have been sold on the black market for years now, for huge
sums of money. Anyone who can produce a good fake stands to profit.
It is not unreasonable to apply Feduccia’s scepticism to the current find. Even the original paper should make us cautious. Commenting on the paper
point-by-point:
Notes on the specimens. Of the six specimens in the present study, IVPP V13476 was collected by the Liaoxi expedition team of the IVPP in 2001, IVPP
V13352, V13320, V13477 and V13351 were purchased by the IVPP during the field seasons of 2001 and 2002, and TNP00996 was purchased by Tianjin Museum
of Natural History in 2002.
It is highly suspicious to rely on purchased fossils, since one has no proof of the geological context or whether they have been doctored. As Dr
Feduccia says, no-one from Nature would have checked the authenticity of the specimen. Dr Storrs Olson, Curator of Birds at the National Museum of
Natural History of the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C. has also noted that Nature’s reliability on this issue is highly suspect:
Now it starts getting pathetic
 Careful study of bird, alligator and turtle embryos at early stages offer convincing evidence that the "fingers" of bird wings correspond to the
index, middle and ring fingers of humans
www.sciencedaily.com...
 Drs. Alan Feduccia and Julie Nowicki of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have opened a series of live ostrich eggs at various
stages of development and found what they believe is proof ... >
www.sciencedaily.com...
 No good evidence exists that fossilized structures found in China and which some paleontologists claim are the earliest known rudimentary
feathers were really feathers at all, a renowned ... > www.sciencedaily.com...
CORVALLIS, Ore. (June 22, 2000) - Scientists today announced the discovery of the oldest animal ever known to have feathers, which may have
been the ancestor of birds but clearly was not a dinosaur - a discovery that calls into serious question many theories about an evolutionary link
between dinosaurs and birds.
I think it can be safely assumed that since the day Chuck Darwin first came up with this "stuff", evolutionists have been attempting to flim flam
everyone with fraudulent fabrications and machiavellian manufactured evidence to manipulate the masses for so long and so often, they have reduced
their credibility so much they can no longer be trusted and the peer reviews they write have also been found to be somewhat of a "Clique" at the top
levels where politics and like minded darwininan opinion and support goes further in elevating status than genuine personal acheivment and compelling
accurate scientific discovery.
It has been nothing but hoax after hoax after hoax after hoax after hoax.
Piltdownman 45 years they passed that off as fact. Javaman, coloradoman, Haekels manipulated embryos, all these fake bird to dino "thingamabobs"
Darwins finches, the crowning glory of Darwinists
 I think should be the real take-home lesson of the Peppered Moth saga? The fact that this amazingly banal set of events has been hammered
worldwide as ‘ultimate proof’ for a belief that microbes originally turned into moths (and moth researchers)! This is far more stupefying to
contemplate than even all the faked photos and talk of fraudulent experiments.
store.creationontheweb.com...
However, it turns out that this classic story is full of holes anyway. Peppered moths don’t even rest on tree trunks during the day. This entire
thing was nothing but a HUGE LIE pre meditated out and out fraud!
But there is more!
Watch as the mountain of evidence gets torn down, piece by fraudulent piece.
Where are the transitions?
Their are none, they are all the same creature today as they were millions of years ago.
 BOSTON -- Geologists at Ohio State University have found the largest-ever complete fossil of a cockroach, one that lived 55 million years before
the first dinosaurs.
www.sciencedaily.com...
Its still a cock roach
The Horseshoe Crab still EXACTLY the same
The Alligator?
Still a gator.
The Bat?
Still a Bat
Sharks?
Still Sharks
Man?
Are we transitioning?
Nope
Darwinism= the ever lieing illusion of
Evolution
- Con
[edit on 21-6-2008 by Conspiriology]
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reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 07:31 AM by drevill
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Hello
as science says nature abhors a vacuum. so do scientists it seems,
they just want to fill the gaping holes in "theories"
like using the letter
A
then seeing a
K
and then claiming it is war and peace in its entirety. They flood the world with this "discovery" and that "discovery" using words such as
could,should,may,might and then hope that it's a very long time before is is easily disproved so that it becomes accepted.
theorize? Yes, but dont take us for mugs
david
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reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 07:51 AM by Conspiriology
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reply to post by drevill
Yes, David I agree, that is what "Legitimate" Science does, but what these "Scientists" are about is ONE thing and one thing only.
Making God irrelevent while attempting to justify there place in our Public Schools as an unnecessary addon to Biology Science.
It's no wonder why American Students are lagging further and further behind. They are all studying a bunch a baloney. Can you imagine these kids
coming out of Schools thinking those damn peppered moths actually do what they told them they did and that Lucy was a transitional form?
What a waste of time and money.
I think it's time we tell evolutionists to quit talking about the damn mountain of evidence and all the labor pains and
show us the BABY!
- Con
Removed entire quote of previous poster and replaced it with Reply To
Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.
[edit on 22-6-2008 by GAOTU789]
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reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 02:15 PM by drevill
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hello
yes i agree
Science is frightened of what it doesn't know. it wants to know everything so it can be everything. A lot of it is a faith in its own right. If it
admits there is a creator then the worship fails
david
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reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 11:06 PM by dave420
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reply to post by Hollywood11
Your logic is ridiculous. A fake fossil does not disprove evolution. Just as one of those many Christian relics being fake doesn't disprove
Christianity.
At least TRY to form an argument. This is getting very tedious.
As for Drevill, no - science isn't "scared" of anything. Science doesn't think. Science doesn't have a blog. Science doesn't have a MySpace
page.
SCIENCE IS A METHODOLOGY. It is a way for people to discover things. If science could possibly discover god, science would be the biggest and
loudest supporter of god. Saying it's scared is, well, pathetic. Clearly you don't understand what science is, and yet you feel compelled to
demonstrate that to everyone, shooting your argument in the foot in the process. Genius.
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reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 11:34 PM by drwizardphd
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The OP's source is just plain wrong:
And then there is common sense. In a popular evolutionary explanation, here's how reptiles evolved into birds: They wanted to eat flying insects that
were out of reach. So the reptiles began leaping, and flapping their arms to get higher. Over millions of years, their limbs transformed into wings by
increments, their tough reptilian scales gradually sprouting soft feathers.

Dino's began evolving feathers from scales long before they ever took flight, they didn't start "flapping their arms" and magically evolve wings,
it was a gradual slow process that took millions of years. Also, there are a few different theories as to how flight evolved, I'll point you in the
right direction.
Origin of Birds
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reply posted on 22-6-2008 @ 03:23 AM by Conspiriology
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This has been debunked so bad it should be embarrassing for you to suggest this bunk AGAIN read my post.
They have recently found feathered birds BEFORE the dino existed
whats does that tell you??
uh huh
- con
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reply posted on 22-6-2008 @ 03:30 AM by Conspiriology
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Originally posted by dave420
Your logic is ridiculous. A fake fossil does not disprove evolution. .

Dave,, sigh,, read the post, he isnt saying fake evidence disproves evolution, it is saying evolutionists are using fake evidence to PROVE evolution,
try your slippery semantics word games somewhere where the readers are slower ok. This is the third time tonight you have taken a post like this and
reversed it to suggest an argument with a statment the post was never making.
At least TRY to form an argument. This is getting very tedious.

I won't even mention ,,, oh maan
Clearly you don't understand what science is,

"clearly" ha ha you kill me dave,,
hey im sending you a u2u also
- Con
[edit on 22-6-2008 by Conspiriology]
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reply posted on 22-6-2008 @ 04:28 AM by stumason
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Firstly, WorldNetDaily is your where your founding your argument from? Ha!
Secondly, what birds where around before the dinosaurs? Please, show me...
And what say you to dinosaurs having feathers? Many did. While adult T-rex's are known to have had the traditional looking skin, younger T-rex's and
other species related to the T-rex have been proven to have had feathers. And that is just one dinosaur species....
You quite obviously do not understand the theory of evolution. Do you think that it means animals consciously evolve? Do you think it means a monkey
gave birth to a man?
It is, in a nutshell, purely random. Mutations that occur during conception usually end up killing the organism or conferring a major disadvantage,
but if the mutation confers an advantage over other organisms around it, then that animal will not only survive, but will flourish and breed, passing
on it's advantageous genetic material to it's offspring. Over time, genetic changes build up and new species emerge.
I find it astounding that people cannot grasp the extraordinarily simple premise behind evolution. It is far more believable than some supernatural
being invented by illiterate goat-herders thousands of years ago who based their idea's on nothing more than superstition.
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reply posted on 22-6-2008 @ 04:20 PM by Conspiriology
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Originally posted by stumason
And what say you to dinosaurs having feathers? Many did. While adult T-rex's are known to have had the traditional looking skin, younger T-rex's and
other species related to the T-rex have been proven to have had feathers. And that is just one dinosaur species....

You quite obviously do not understand the theory of evolution.

On the contrary , it is YOU who doesn't understand it. Understanding it isn't necessary however as is with the dino to bird theory, Basic
remedial biology is all you need for this one. You suggest believing in the ancient texts as astounding while I find it incomprehensible that you
would suggest as a matter of fact the dino to birds macro evolutionary fable predicated on artists renditions and a BOAT LOAD of nothing but pure
speculation having no one to observe this phenomena which happend not thousands of years ago with a written record but NONE at all and MILLIONS and
Millions of years ago.
You think you got a good dino to bird example?
Show me ONE, the best one ya got and Ill demonstrate why the dino to bird theory is having Darwinists choking on the dust of their own regrets
By the way, you might want to brush up on your Biology rather than your religion of evolution, Atheist.
- Con
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reply posted on 23-9-2008 @ 05:41 PM by Hollywood11
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Conspiriology thank you for your contributions to this thread
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reply posted on 23-9-2008 @ 06:50 PM by ChChKiwi
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reply to post by Conspiriology
I'm confused, why did you give source information for 'reputable' sources but when you used the Answers in Genesis sources you just said quote from
external source without giving the source? Are you ashamed of these sources?
To paraphrase GW, I'm against you. Plain and simple. Fundamentalist religion and its associations are like a cancer against Scientific knowledge.
Shame.
[edit on 23/9/08 by ChChKiwi]
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reply posted on 23-9-2008 @ 08:39 PM by Good Wolf
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Good lord this nothing but hate speech.
So you're suggesting that fake bird transitional mean? That birds didn't come from dinosaurs? That makes no sense, where else could they have come
from and why do the share the fundamental morphology of dinosaurs? That indicates gaps not that it never happened.
I also heard someone accuse scientists of putting forward piltdown man as evidence of evolution. piltdown man was a proven fake decades ago. Way to be
current.
Also bats are bats, crocs are crocs, sharks are sharks and horseshoe crabs are horseshoe crabs. Yes they are, very observant. But to say that that is
evidence that evolution doesn't occur demonstrates your misunderstanding of the subject matter. Somethings just aren't pressured to change, are so
successful that they stay in the permanent niche for hundreds of thousands of years. Then of course other organisms evolve much more rapidly, like
humans. Humans evolutionary path has been well established for a long time now.
Peppered moths do land on trees btw, there was so much anger about them that it had to be demonstrated that they did do so, and they did.
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