The Religious Conspiracy Against Women, page 8

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 07:31 AM

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reply to post by madnessinmysoul

i garee, it is still happening in christian homes, but not many women will talk about it. I grew up in a born-again christian home. My dad worked, and maybe cooked like twice a year and that was it. My step-mother did the cleaning, cooking, laundry, taking care of my 3 half-sisters, (in which she gave birth to them 3 years in a row), she did the grocery shopping, paid all the bills, and she taguht my sisters everything they needed to know before they went to school. My dad was the household, he made all the decisions, all of the plans, said when we were going out, what chores my step-mother had to do that day, he gave her an allowance, and he had sex with her whenever he wanted regardless if she wanted to or not. I had to watch my sisters, do my own laundry, clean, and cook. That's the type of life I had when i was growing up.

Unfortunately, it has carried over in my adult life. I got married at the age of 19, I never went to college, even though now i wish I did. I do things my step-mother did even though i don't have to. My husband cooks, but then again he is a chef. He does work and I was a SAHm for 11 years, i work now. I still clean my whole house, do my all the laundry, pay all the bills, and what not. etc. My husband can't stand the fact that I cannot make a decision without his approval. If my husband stays home all weekend, then so do we. i have no friends, and no life. I feel guilty for asking for help, I tend not to ask for help. i don't take naps, because I don't want to be lazy. i do everything I am told to do. Which well, doesn't happen very often.

This is what happens when religion takes over a house hold, will i be able to break this cycle, probably not, as it's so in bred in me that it's hard to break. So yeah this thing against religion is very real and happens to do this day!

mysticalzoe

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 07:34 AM

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reply to post by mysticalzoe

I meant to say this thing against women in religion is very real!! Sorry!

orangetom1999

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 11:24 AM

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reply to post by mystical zoe

mystical zoe,

Jerry Jerry Jerry!!!! Reference to the Jerry Springer show and "Victimization."

I,m a victim...I,m a Victim...I,m a victim

Please explain to me how a downtrodden brutalized "victim" has time and access to ATS/BTS?? Or are most of these women..especially in Christian Social structures...arguing or debating for more "entitlements"??

Watch this mystical zoe....

My dad worked, and maybe cooked like twice a year and that was it. My step-mother did the cleaning, cooking, laundry, taking care of my 3 half-sisters, (in which she gave birth to them 3 years in a row), she did the grocery shopping, paid all the bills, and she taught my sisters everything they needed to know before they went to school.

You never did say what your Dad did for work. Notice here that the implied assumption..the default setting.... for most women who use this technique is not that the women should be switching roles with the men and letting the men stay home while they go to work. This is never the tack they take. They are not arguing or debating the position that these women should take the men's jobs and also the RISK and danger in many of them....then turn over the moneys to maintain the family.

These women are arguing for the position and religious belief system ..that the men should go to work and take RISKS on their jobs to earn said moneys. Then turn over their earned moneys..to the women for spending...and also help the women with their daily chores. The women are not arguing or debating for helping the men with the men's traditional chores in equality..either at home or on the job. Especially if these chores involve danger or risk where a woman can be physically hurt, killed, or maimed/devalued for life.
Almost none of these women who complain about this are arguing/debating for this much equality.
Don't worry mistical zoe..most of the men I know are so stupid and easily intimidated by posts such as yours neither do they notice it.

Watch this mystical zoe,

I had to watch my sisters, do my own laundry, clean, and cook. That's the type of life I had when i was growing up.

Uh.....there is something wrong with this?? Please tell me what one should be doing as a part of a family if they are not helping out. What else is a youngster supposed to be doing in a family environment...or perhaps you are implying here ..to what a family member is "entitled."

Youngsters should be helping to clean , cook, do laundry..both males and females. What is wrong with this?? I have no respect for parents ..male or female who teach children to work a telephone, computer keypad but not know how to take care of themselves on their own by doing these basic things like cooking, cleaning, laundry, paying bills..etc etc. I know so many young people who live and work off entitlements...their beliefs are all of the fast food lane...no anchor to them. They are afloat in a sea of fast food.

and he had sex with her whenever he wanted regardless if she wanted to or not.

This is between your mother and father ..not you...this is their business...not yours.

Watch this mystical zoe....try thinking here..

Unfortunately, it has carried over in my adult life. I got married at the age of 19, I never went to college, even though now i wish I did. I do things my step-mother did even though i don't have to.

Who made you get married at 19?? Christian society or social structures??

Never went to college...whats stopping you?? You state in your post ...you don t have to do the things your mother did?? What is stopping you from going to college. Even part time...What is stopping you from breaking the mold??
Who is responsible for this outside of "you" ...you yourself??
This is not the fault of Christian society or Christian social structure. It is your fault. You change this by taking responsibility for yourself. Take RISK. Take the bull by the horns.

My husband can't stand the fact that I cannot make a decision without his approval.

You cannot change this behavior for yourself??..or you don't want to...??
This makes any implication of victimization sort of dumb. Also any implication or inference on Christian society or social structures.

If my husband stays home all weekend, then so do we. i have no friends, and no life. I feel guilty for asking for help, I tend not to ask for help. i don't take naps, because I don't want to be lazy. i do everything I am told to do. Which well, doesn't happen very often.

You know mystical zoe...I have just the opposite thing. The woman I see is very much in the fast food land and goes a lot..even if she cannot afford it. Staying home is a death sentence for her. As a result she goes through resources very fast. When her medium for going breaks down...she looks for me to RISK...FLASHDANCE.. her through these vehicle problems. It becomes very abusive after awhile. She thinks ..socially ..that this is one of the things men are supposed to do for women...flash-dance them through life's problems for which they don't want to handle for themselves..especially if it cuts into their running around moneys and time.
I think that women who work should be maintaining their own vehicles and such ...not pawning it off on males as a career in order to be flash danced through life's difficulties. This would make them equal.
You see mystical zoe..this way men or males would have more time and moneys for that to which they think themselves entitled!! Don't you think??
This would be equality. Equal RISK!!

This is what happens when religion takes over a house hold,

So yeah this thing against religion is very real and happens to do this day!

mystical zoe...ever heard of individual responsibility and risk taking??
You need to try it sometime...not make such excuses..or transfer blame to someone or something else.
There are people out here who read stuff like you post and can see through it.

While I don't agree with much of the fast food lane behavior of the woman I am seeing...she would eat you alive...in your "Victimization" technique. She would tell you to get off your behind and teach yourself to deal with it..or get dumped by the roadside...which you are doing quite well to yourself.
She hates "Victimization" Techniques. So many of the women in her office are wont to use this "Victimization" when it works for them.

Get off your butt and get going..small steps at first..then on to bigger steps. You can do it mistical zoe...small steps at first. Stop making excuses and make a difference. "Victimization" is not making a difference ....it is making a burden...and putting it off on someone else.

Thanks,
Orangetom

dawnstar

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 04:35 PM
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orange.....
ummm.....
unless you have been involved in some of these religious groups, you have no idea just how hard it is to break from some of these old habits....
I have no idea just what mystic's background it, but I've run into many families that have been run like the one she is describing....
it just isn't that easy....

also, would also like to inform ya....may hubby still would break my neck if I tried to fix my car...
his car...
who'sever car it is...

orangetom1999

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 11:07 PM
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reply to post by dawnstar

Dawnstar....???

What????

unless you have been involved in some of these religious groups, you have no idea just how hard it is to break from some of these old habits....

So ....we get extra bonus points for doing work or risk which is difficult or hard and breaking olde habits. We write books and toot our horns??

Years ago..I rebuilt an engine for a woman I was seeing at the time. She did not care how hard or difficult it was. The whole time I never saw her...only when it was done did she come around. This is called Quick and easy..without work/risk. I'll never do that again. Pretty stupid of me.
It is the nature of this world that it does not care how hard our struggles are. It is up to us to make the changes necessary to steer our lives...not make excuses. If it involves risk...so be it.

also, would also like to inform ya....may hubby still would break my neck if I tried to fix my car...
his car...
who'sever car it is...

LOL LOL Dawnstar...same thing applies. Take the bull by the horns. Take responsibility. Tell him to shut up ..sit down and watchtv...go fishing..et al.
You'll take care of this because you can. More time for him to chill.

Thanks,
Orangetom

dawnstar

posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:21 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
reply to post by dawnstar

So ....we get extra bonus points for doing work or risk which is difficult or hard and breaking olde habits. We write books and toot our horns??

umm.....I'll remember that next time I have to stop at a red light and my foot starts screaming at me.....it's just one of those extra bonuses for doing work!! by the way, I hurt my foot at work......so it isn't just the men that are taking risks....I tend to take one every day when I leave work and drive home!!
my husband caught me one day with the hood open, I was checking the oil....for about a month afterward, he kept demanding what I did to the car...only checked the oil, but the stick back where it belonged.....I must of did something it wasn't running right....seemed to be running fine for me....
well.....
I've had an ignore switch installed into my brain now....don't have to take the bull by the horns.....just flip the danged switch and go on my way...

the reason why I said it was hard to break from these old habits is that well.....it's a religion, and according to that religion, it is GOD that wants you to behave this way. you can believe in God, have a real desire to do what it right in his sight, and well....
some ass of a man comes along and not only is he capable of crappy your life up, but he is also able to blow your faith out of the water.
to mystic, I would like to say...
it is your husband telling you that he wants you making some decisions, it is him that wants that change.....and well, it is the religion that wants you to change for him....so, it would be right to change, according to the religion.
unfortunately, I think that many of the women in these churches are rather comfortable with the old ways.....think about it...the men make all of the decisions, you let them, therefore, well, when things blow up in his face, it's not the women that is in fault, is it, no, it's never the women's fault, because they have alway let the men call the shots....totally risk free!
never back the decisions, never have to deal with making bad decisions, never have to grow up!
I've had my faith blown out of the water, in much of the same way I have laid out here. now, I don't believe God ever set men up to be the all powerful leaders of the family....or the world...
but, I will never go into a church again, unless they change that part of their doctrine. and all the churches that I know of have that doctrine within them.

by the way....

there's a story online about this man who killed his wife, because she was spending too much time with her church friends....

ap.google.com...

Some members of the congregation told police they knew that Bins did not support his wife's involvement but said they were stunned by the killings. The couple had met through the church when Bins, a native of Brazil, started taking English classes there. Souza, also from Brazil, helped teach the classes. Bins occasionally attended church services with his wife, the baby and Caique, her son by a previous marriage, but he did not become a member.

if they knew he was not supportive, actuallly against her doing this, well....
why did they allow it. it seems to fly in the face of their own doctrine. matter of fact, why do they occasionally come to the house and try to talk me into going to their church...they should be asking for my husband. they don't never have...
why??
could it be because they don't believe their own doctrine.
if they don't believe it themselves, why do they teach it?

could it be that they are stuck between a rock and a hard place??
can't admit the mistakes of their forefathers, not when their books are infallible, so, well, go on teaching the untruths.....but, well, don't live by them?

[edit on 5-11-2008 by dawnstar]

orangetom1999

posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by dawnstar

Dawnstar,

I hurt my foot at work......so it isn't just the men that are taking risks....I tend to take one every day when I leave work and drive home!!

I am not saying that only men take risks..I am saying that risks and default settings are measured socially through a different prizm. This is obvious by many of the posts on this thread.
I too got hurt this year at work. Fell down a flight of steps and got jammed up in a heavy hand rail on one of the aircraft carriers.
I ride a scooter to work most days though I also have several four wheeled vehicles. Will be riding it to work today. Do I get extra bonus points for this the next time I am expected socially to flash dance someone through life's hurdles...?? In addition too....all the other things I need to do??
No one often wants to discuss the social differences, beliefs, and expectations that actually occur out here among the wildlife...while using such catch words like...equality...holy ground Highlander!!

I still standby what I said. Take responsibility for yourself. There is the possibility that your man may not be around forever. You need to learn to do it yourself for this very reason. Self sufficiency. I would be elated to have the woman I see learn and take such initiative for her vehicle...or things in her home. Elated. Not necessarily for noble reasons..but they are my reasons...she can take care of herself...self sufficiency ...and it also frees me up to be more of a slacker. More free time for my discretion in how or what I am going to do with it.
Sorry Dawnstar ..I don't have much use or respect for a man who takes that attitude with his woman. I think it is ignorance and does not help himself or her in the long run.
Women need to be more self sufficient. It also helps a man to know that if she is self sufficient in these things.. ..she can come to him for love only ..not for goodies or getting work done without risk...to be Flashdance. Understand??

I'll tell you what I know Dawnstar. I know that my mother worked hard at raising the four of us..in taking care of the family. I know she worked much harder than many men today..and harder also than most women.
Someone mentioned in the Woman's Survival thread that women back then were not shrinking violets. I agree with them. One had to have such backbone..for there were not as many labor saving devices in the home as is today. Raising a family was very very labor intensive back then. It is the same for most traditionally male working environments..labor intensive back then.

This is why when I see someone like Mystical Zoe post that type of nonsense I am wont to reply in the manner I did. Obviously to me they do not believe it enough to make a difference or take certain initiatives. They believe in it enough to make excuses...but not take the risks necessary to change things. They would rather someone else take the risks and be flash danced through to their social expectations and beliefs...entitlements.
"Victimization."

You do understand how far I am going to get in life by screaming "Victimization"...correct??
How many folks ..male and female who will flashdance me through life's hurdles and difficulties. After all..I am socially owed this....entitled!! By guilt conditioning. Right???

As to the story you posted about the Brazilian...

I don't go along with such stuff. It shows insecurity and powerlessness. Just as I posted to Mr Bender here..from page 2 of this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It shows powerlessness..not power or ability to cope. It is in fact ..very feminine in its powerlessness. I could not believe Mr Bender used such techniques as an example of male power. I don't think they even thought it through before posting such nonsense.

If it bothered this guy that much he should have left her..not killed her. Or she left him. Simple enough.

Gotta get my scooter ready to shove off. No one here to flashdance me through this inconvenience. I should be able to just turn the key and no risk or difficulties involved.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 7-11-2008 by orangetom1999]

megabyte

posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by orangetom1999

Matriarchal means a family,society,community,or state governed by women.It doesn't mean there was just some female influence,it means they made the rules etc.Matrifocality is a society where women occupy a central position.And feudalism is a political and military system,not social.

In most of occult writings ....the power is in the males...even in the fertility principles.

The oldest known religious cult is that of the Earth Mother/Mother Goddess,it can be traced back to the Paleolithic era.(24,000–22,000 BC) She may have been the dominant figure but the fertility rites and principles were equal because,in the case of humans,its all to do with the reproductive processes.Which is 2 halves coming together to make 1 whole.

I read an interesting book on pre historic Europe, beaker society and others. They were matriatchies and very advanced for their time. They did not have arms or fortifications because they did not need them. They focussed on gaining wealth for their societies by sowing fields and developing crafts to make clothes and items that made life easier.

there was no crime because a criminal could not outrun on foot someone chasing him on foot for wrong-doing

once the horse was tamed and put to use it made it easy to raid and rob these villages and that is when these societies started developing fortifications and weapons to defend themselves.

The horses and horsemen were the mongols who came from the steppes of Asia to plunder thse peaceful matriarchies. Famine on the steppes is what made these mongols travel on their horses to Europe

to survive, these societies had to adopt the enemies tactics and let go the peaceful matriarchal ways. They went from matriarchal goddess worshipping societies to patriarchal god worshipping societies.

the same holds for ships - coastal societies that fished were never close to the coast because it would be too easy for someone to rob then and escape by ship - so their villages were always a distance away inland - so that any thieves could be chased by foot and tackled

i wish i remembered the book title - wrtiiten by someone who studied these European ancient societies for 20 years but the details escape me.

babloyi

posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by megabyte

Once again, I am getting into this discussion because of some error I notice, and not really for the actual topic. I apologise for that again.

Having said that, I'd like to clarify, there is no indication of any prehistoric mongol invasion of Europe. The only time they ever invaded was in the 13th century, and by that time (and for quite a while before that), there was no such matriarchal society in Europe. Anyhow, horses were domesticated and used widely in Europe by around 2000BC...long before the Mongols came.

jakyll

posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:44 PM
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megabyte

I read an interesting book on pre historic Europe, beaker society and others. They were matriatchies and very advanced for their time. They did not have arms or fortifications because they did not need them. They focussed on gaining wealth for their societies by sowing fields and developing crafts to make clothes and items that made life easier.

Yeah,i have some books on that subject too.Its very interesting,but unforunatly its an area of study that doesn't get a lot of attention.

babloyi

I'd like to clarify, there is no indication of any prehistoric mongol invasion of Europe.

He/she didn't say invasion,he/she said migration.Thats a very big difference.

megabyte

posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by karl 12
Pretty shocking read but quite clearly demonstrates the delusional, mysogynistic,insecure,cowardly nature of islam's portrayal of women:
www.dhushara.com...

if the creator had not meant women to be beautiful he would have made women ugly

and to blame women because some men are pigs with no self control is wrong

humans evolved with 2 eyes because with 2 eyes you get 3d vision - so with one eyes you cannot get that depth perception

idiotic what some religions demand

megabyte

posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by megabyte

Once again, I am getting into this discussion because of some error I notice, and not really for the actual topic. I apologise for that again.

Having said that, I'd like to clarify, there is no indication of any prehistoric mongol invasion of Europe. The only time they ever invaded was in the 13th century, and by that time (and for quite a while before that), there was no such matriarchal society in Europe. Anyhow, horses were domesticated and used widely in Europe by around 2000BC...long before the Mongols came.

my apologies as I cannot recall this book title or the author who wrote it after studying this for 20 years

when i do remember what that book was I will let you know

the info is all from what i read in this book - written by someone who studied Europe and matriarchal societies and the horse and the mongol influence for 20 years

I assume you have not studied these things for 20 years yourself?

once again I apologise as I cannot remember the book title and I now live 3000 miles from the library where I got the book from so cannot just go and check the title and author for you

megabyte

posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
megabyte

I read an interesting book on pre historic Europe, beaker society and others. They were matriatchies and very advanced for their time. They did not have arms or fortifications because they did not need them. They focussed on gaining wealth for their societies by sowing fields and developing crafts to make clothes and items that made life easier.

Yeah,i have some books on that subject too.Its very interesting,but unforunatly its an area of study that doesn't get a lot of attention.

babloyi

i would love to find out a whle lot more about this - i hope to find more books on the subject

madnessinmysoul

posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 06:31 AM
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I thought it would be nice to revive this old thread, partially to reexamine the issues and partially because the issue seems to be ignored.

Women are finding an ever more prominent role is certain religious communities but are still repressed by certain sects of the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). I wanted some of the newer members to weigh in on this issue as well as see the older members revisit it.

Cheers everyone.

Watcher-In-The-Shadows

posted on Aug, 24 2010 @ 10:49 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul

I think it's more man's conspiracy against woman than religion's.
Hiya MIMS long time no see.

madnessinmysoul

posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 04:37 AM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

There is a male conspiracy against women, but the religious one is separate.

Think about it this way, there is a saying that goes something like "Good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things"

I'm oversimplifying the saying, but the point of it is that religion often makes us disagree with our own innate beliefs and morals. In some cases it makes women the enemy of their fellow woman. It's not just the male patriarchy oppressing women with religion, women are oppressing themselves with it.

Watcher-In-The-Shadows

posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 06:37 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Still doesn't change the fact it's someone using something else to do something they were going to do anyway. Which is pretty common for humanity you must admit my friend.

LadyGreenEyes

posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 04:41 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Ever since the war started against the Taliban, the oppression of women in Islamic culture has become more and more apparent, with women not being able to do...well, almost anything in nations like Saudi Arabia and varying degrees of oppression elsewhere

What isn't talked about at length is the oppression of women in Christian societies. It is far more discreet and a product of the subcultures of the nations as opposed to laws that are heavily enforced, but it's still there.

In the Catholic church women are seen as spiritually inferior, being unable to hold positions of power.

In many Protestant churches women aren't allowed to teach men. This means that they aren't allowed to preach in the services, teach their own male children about religion, or hold any sort of authority over men

Also, in both Catholic and Protestant households, women are highly subservient to men to the point where they aren't allowed to make any sort of decisions, this, however, varies depending on how extreme and is far from universal in all Catholic and Protestant households.

So, while the oppression of women in Islamic society is now talked about at length, why don't we take the same tone with Christian oppression of women?

The Bible does NOT condone treating women as inferiors in any way. IN fact, there are passages that tell men to treat their women quite well. Try Ephesians 5:25-33 -

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

It is true that women are not, according to the Bible, supposed to hold leadership positions int he church, but that isn't the same at all as not serving, or having any say in decision-making. Churches I have attended have Congressional meetings, with ALL members voting on the various issues and business matters. Plus, women quite frequently hold a position as a Sunday School teacher, teaching both male and female children in their classes. Never been a place that was not so. Also, never heard ANYONE, in ANY church, state that a mother could not teach her own male children. Not sure where you got that information. Been to a number of churches over the decades, and never seen this. Most Baptist, very Biblical churches, for the record.

As a Christian woman, never saw a Christian home where the wife was treated as inferior, either. In fact, know many where the wife handles a lot of the family business. Subservient? Not in the typical homes I have seen. Seen for many decades now, as stated. The behavior you describe sounds closer to a couple of the more "mainstream" cults I have studied, than any Christian church. Now, to be fair, some call these places Christian, and in fact, one of them claims to be. The other does at times, but their members are more honest alone. Example, one JW co-worker of mine was actually offended that I listened to a Christian station in MY office. Plus, the blatant hostility of some of their door-to-door people,w hen presented with truth from the Bibles they carry and misquote, is quite telling.

Can't really speak for the Catholic Church. Much about it I don't agree with.

So, if you want to discuss this claimed "Christian oppression", how about some sources for these claims? As a Christian wife, I have never seen this behavior. Please note I have lived in several states, attended many churches, and known quite a large number of Christian families. Never seen what you talk about here. In fact, the only controlling husband I know of right now is rather against church, christian counsel, etc. No, he isn't Muslim, either.

Certainly, if I saw oppression like that, I would speak up about it.

LadyGreenEyes

posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 04:46 AM
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Originally posted by RUFFREADY
Yeah, I think women across the world should rise-up about the way they are treated in muslim type countries (beatings, forced to wear berkas, HONOR KILLINGS, to name but a few things) it really pisses me off when I see president Bush kiss the asses these sheks in S. Arabia and else where. He should tell them to make women equal or we will not deal with you Mod edit -- language].

[edit on 11-6-2008 by Byrd]

Bush? Did you miss Obama BOWING to these Muslim leaders?? Bush never did that!

LadyGreenEyes

posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 04:48 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by EricD

um...no, it's not a statistical anomaly. it's quite the reality. there are sects of christianity that take the bible literally, to the point where women have to cover their head and cannot talk in religious services, because that's what the bible says. they're not allowed to teach men, because that's what the bible says

it's written in the book.

Name these sects, please, with links if possible. Keep in mind, cults are not the same as Christian denominations.