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The Religious Conspiracy Against Women

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posted on Oct, 12 2008 @ 03:26 PM
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Religion is morally absolutist, not relativist, so as a result religion is the last body of thought to accept a change. Modern religion formed during times of male control, Christianity may well have been an equality religion, but the Roman Emperor Constantine wrecked that and imposed Roman law onto women, rendering them at the level of slaves, so was born Catholicism.
Nowadays, women have more rights, and some religions are starting to reflect that more, but the religious bodies will be the last to move on this because they are so absolutist.




posted on Oct, 13 2008 @ 01:27 AM
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reply to post by jakyll
 


No jakyll.

No joke..no jest.


The cross is one of the oldest known symbols in the world.


I agree here ..the cross is in fact pagan. One can find this in many pagan occult texts and if one does enough digging one can find it in Christian texts which have not been polluted by the "traditions of men." Thus meaning ..counterfeited. I will not wear a cross...nor fish..nor bird..etc etc. Nor put cuttings in my flesh or marks for the dead.


Ichthys,the fish symbol,has been used in reference to sexuality and the womb
in many goddess 'cults.'


I quite agree..again. They were in fact part and parcel of these pagan fertility religions. You see no such instruction ...Olde or New Testament for Gods people to define themselves by their sexuality as was so often done in the pagan religions..especially around their festivals and holydays.
This is a huge problem today with merchandising and advertising...the seduction of ignorant peoples to do exactly that ..define themselves by their sexuality. Meaning paganism is returning rapidly. Sexuality and consumerism today go hand in hand...as is the seduction to sell this merchandise and if necessary the souls of the consumer. Nothing new here under the sun.

I choose not to partake of this nonsense.


The Eucharist was part of Mithraism


See my previous posts on the RCC and counterfeiting.


The Halo comes from the worship of Apollo.


agree..again...see my earlier posts on RCC and counterfeiting.


Baptism also predates Christianity.The early Church Father Tertullian wrote;

The Virgin Mary and Child image comes from ancient Egypt;Isis and Horus.
The shepherd with a lamb on his shoulders image is from Greece.


One can find all this information's in Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons. Circa 1912. I have a copy in my private library. In it are also the origins of many of the so called Holydays to show and illustrate that they are pagan in traditions and customs...and many correspond to the passing of the sun or the moon across the sky or night to mark certain times for festivals etc. I also know of the pagan trinities.

Which leads me to your comment.


Then there's the Christian Holy Days that are deeply rooted in Paganism,
the major ones being Easter and Christmas.


I do not celebrate Christmas nor Easter. I don't even celebrate a birthday. No interest in any of this. Birthdays are not a practice given to the Hebrews by the Law of Moses to celebrate..nor do we see any such instruction to the followers of Jesus. However, we do know that birthdays are and were an important pagan custom.
I do not keep any day above another. For they are all my Lord's days.

Which brings me to your last comment.


And most important of all is the parallels that appear in the lives of Jesus
and other divine beings such as Dionysius,Krishna,Mithras etc,
but most of all with the Egyptian god Horus.


There are no parallels here...there are only appearances...by logic and reason. For those of us who know and observe ..occult pagan customs and traditions...we know that pagan light is very different from the Lords Light.
Pagan light is in fact darkness....while they claim the reverse.

While the Hebrews were given in the Olde Testament ..specific instructions by which to conduct themselves ...these instructions were also to show and demonstrate that these people were not like the people of the nations surrounding them. They were not to do or partake of these traditions of men. They were disobedient in this.

Many of the Lord's church's are in fact disobedient..in like manner and taking on the "Traditions of men"....precisely as you describe.

There are however a small percentage of the Lord's people... a remnant who have not bowed the knee to Baal and taken on these traditions. It was so with the Hebrews in Olde Testament times. There is also among the Hebrews a remnant who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have always been here and always will be. It has always been this way jakyll.

Counterfeiting Jakyll, means that one has already crossed over and or been seduced to the other side..disobedient. Many Churches have been infiltrated by preachers/priests trained and schooled in Gnosticism/Pagan customs and traditions. It is paganism which has infiltrated and seduced to disobedience. There is no instruction for a Christian to begin a bible school. Preachers are to be taught by faithful Preachers...not in Bible schools. Bible schools are how much of the counterfeiting takes place...like a xerox machine. Counterfeit preachers can be cranked out by the dozens.

Paganism has entered and seduced Christianity..not the other way around. I know this simply because there are no symbols for Christians. None...but you find them all over the place in Paganism. You also do not find Pagans taking on the mantle and customs of Christianity...even part way...it is always the other way around in infiltration.

That is precisely how a counterfeit works...people don't even know it is happening so as to have it pass for the real thing. A counterfeit is not the opposite of the real thing but as close to the real thing so as to pass.
Those trained in this knowledge can even spot the counterfeit in the Body Politic...which is also a devout religion. They can even spot it in public education which is paid for by a devout religion called politics.

Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 13-10-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 08:16 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 




Olde or New Testament for Gods people to define themselves by their sexuality as was so often done in the pagan religions..especially around their festivals and holydays.


It wasn't to do with sexuality,not in the manner we perceive it today anyways.It was a celebration of life,death and rebirth.But,like any faith,it has been corrupted.




There are no parallels here...there are only appearances...by logic and reason.


I hate to say this,but you are either blinded by your faith,you're a liar,or you're both.If i had given a list of the events from Horus' life and asked you who was it describing you would've said Jesus without a moments hesitation.




Pagan light is in fact darkness....while they claim the reverse.


Paganism covers a broad spectrum of faiths and religions,to which are you referring? All of them?




There are however a small percentage of the Lord's people... a remnant who have not bowed the knee to Baal and taken on these traditions. It was so with the Hebrews in Olde Testament times. There is also among the Hebrews a remnant who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have always been here and always will be. It has always been this way jakyll.


But we were not talking about them,we were talking about Christianity as a whole.And Baal/Ba'al is only a title meaning master or lord,and can even be used in reference to humans.So which God(s) are you talking about?
Hadad maybe? He was the protector of life and growth to the agricultural people of the region.




Paganism has entered and seduced Christianity..not the other way around. I know this simply because there are no symbols for Christians. None...but you find them all over the place in Paganism. You also do not find Pagans taking on the mantle and customs of Christianity...even part way...it is always the other way around in infiltration.


You have a very biased view of Paganism.Its almost as if you believe all the lies spread about them by the early church.And there are many Hindu's,Sikh's,Buddhists etc who converted to Christianity.Right now,those in China who follow the Bible's teachings are being persecuted.


The Christians have many symbols,and not all are from Paganism.
www.religionfacts.com...
And Hebrews have symbols too,the Star of David and the Menorah,for example.Symbolism plays a huge part in all walks of life,you should know that.



posted on Oct, 15 2008 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by jakyll
 


jakyll,


It wasn't to do with sexuality,not in the manner we perceive it today anyways.It was a celebration of life,death and rebirth.But,like any faith,it has been corrupted.


It has everything to do with sexuality, both in the spiritual realm and in the appeal to ordinary people...in their vanity. Whether in the sun or the moon...and these various rites...it was always sexual. Most Christians haven't a clue...about this. What surprises me is how many people involved in Occult religions and rites also haven't a clue.

The sun is energy..male ...the moon is passive / matter ...female. This is even reflected in gold and silver..gold for the sun and silver for the moon and night people. The sun and the moon and the master. Always variations of these principles. They may look different on the outside but underneath...just peel back the public veneer and they are very much alike...hence my references to the "Prisca Theologica."

Pantheism is no different ..it is simply a variation of nature worship which is fertility worship, which is the olde sex occult worship and the olde holy-days.


I hate to say this,but you are either blinded by your faith,you're a liar,or you're both.If i had given a list of the events from Horus' life and asked you who was it describing you would've said Jesus without a moments hesitation.


Sorry jakyll, you can give me any ancient civilization you want. Most of them ..no matter what the religion claimed were as stated...a few lived well off the work and labors of the others using the religion to establish a system of control. The Peons of these nations lived mostly at a substance level or lower. Only the businessmen lived a slightly different level but they too were subject to the whims of the politicians backed by the religions. Not much different to day ..is it??
It is the fruit borne out by these nations...through the political set up and the religions...which is the indicator of what they really were...not the claims historically/through public education. Check out the fruit. Almost all of them bore little to no fruit which was useful by the ordinary citizen/peon. The ordinary citizen/peon lived at a substance level or lower.


Paganism covers a broad spectrum of faiths and religions,to which are you referring? All of them?


yes..all of them. You can see this fingerprint producing its fruit even today.


But we were not talking about them,we were talking about Christianity as a whole.And Baal/Ba'al is only a title meaning master or lord,and can even be used in reference to humans.So which God(s) are you talking about?
Hadad maybe? He was the protector of life and growth to the agricultural people of the region.


Yes we are talking about Christianity as a whole...and I am specifically demonstrating that most of Christianity ..as were the Pharisees of olde...are variations of a counterfeit...carrying out counterfeit doctrines and practices..yet you are wont to call these Christian ..when they are so obviously no such thing. You use these counterfeit templates to label all Christian. They are no such thing.

What I find so interesting about these counterfeits is that not only do most Christians not know of them but also many atheists and non believers..pagans don't have a clue either. Interesting to me that the counterfeits are so effective.

What you do not demonstrate is how Christian doctrine and beliefs/traditions have infiltrated pagan doctrine and beliefs/customs and traditions. This is simply because it does not work the other way around. This should be common sense. This knowledge alone should be enough to clear up the concept of counterfeits.

I am well aware of the persecution of Christians in China...also in Muslim nations. This is not new in formations to me.


The Christians have many symbols,and not all are from Paganism.
www.religionfacts.com...
And Hebrews have symbols too,the Star of David and the Menorah,for example.Symbolism plays a huge part in all walks of life,you should know that.


Christians have no symbols..not crosses , fishes, not birds..etc etc. There is no symbol for the Holy Spirit. Amazing to me that many Christians haven't a clue about this. Obvious to me also that many Atheists or even Pagans haven't a clue too. We are to make no images. If you don't have the Holy Spirit living in you as a Christian ..no symbols or idols will suffice.

I will wear no crosses, no fish's, no birds..et al...etc. etc. It is the same to me as celebrating a birthday, Easter, Christmas..etc et. al. All traditions of men.

As to the Star of David....Wow!! You are referring to this pagan symbol??
You need to check out the seal of Remphan on the web.
The so called Star of David...is two triangles overlapping each other ..point up the male... and point down the female. The male and the female..the sun and the moon and the master. It is a simple variation of this olde fertility principle.
There is no difference here in this and the Cross..which is a variation of the Seal of Remphan. The vertical element ..the male principle of fertility and the horizontal element... the female principle. The intersection of the male and female principles of fertility. The cross. It is the same with the compass and square...the male mounting the female. You can find this in various books ..not found in Barnes and Noble or Amazon..but in real occult books on these subjects.

A proper Christian Church has no use for Candlesticks, Crosses or even an altar. No need for stained glass either. Our sacrifice was made only once..no need for an altar,nor crosses, nor candlesticks. It is finished..is the Christian doctrine...a finished work. Not needing to be done over and over and over ad nauseum.
All of these come from paganism.

Gotta go,
Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 15-10-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Oct, 16 2008 @ 05:10 AM
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orangetom1999

seems to me, that the kind of christianity you are describing has been hidden since probably shortly after christ's death. the bible clearly states that his followers would be persecuted....those who are persecuted naturallly tend to hide, thus no crosses, no alters (at least in common view), no special holidays to take off work for.
but, still, "christianity" is what you see all around you....at least for most of us, it's the giant million dollar churches, the pipe organs, the alters, all of the fancy fringes. weather you like it or not, that is christianity....weather you think it's god's way or not, that is christianity....weather you think paganism corrupted it or it corrupted itself in search of conquest......it is still christianity.
maybe you should use a different term for those who still remain hidden?



posted on Oct, 16 2008 @ 07:17 AM
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Dawnstar,

Not hidden per se...but hijacked. Taken over in an attempt to bring back the olde systems...under the guise of being Christian. By the olde systems I mean Feudalism. Through most of the world they have indeed been persescuted....even by those claiming to be Christian. The historical records clearly indicate thus and that their persecuters have shown themseslves to not be Christian while claiming the mantle of Christianity...which is my point in all this.

I dont see much Christianity all around me at all. I see rampant consumerism...secular consumerism and entitlement beliefs here in the west. People who can define themselves by what they consume rather than what they know. People who can define themselves by an emotional entitlement belief systems rather than what they know or can sustain of thier own merits and demerits.
I see a system in place to take advantage of this trend by keeping people on this religioius/political treadmill..such that they think this is entirely normal...even deserved/entitled. By the way ..here...this also means that politics is a religion too since the two party system is obviously catering to this belief system for votes. This should be obvious by the feverent devotion and beliefs of the counterfeit two party system at place in this country. Politics=economics=entitlements in todays social structurre.
This is what intelligence..gnosticism, sophism has become. Intelligence, gnosticism, sophism have become the hallmarks..the fingerprint of the body politic while also keeping people on an emotional puppet string.
The very same fingerprint as this issue of the OP.

As to the giant million dollar churchs...Yes...I see them in peoples homes all the time..complete with altar..by which to be seduced into this Idol Worship. Its called a television. And it is a Billion dollar church system not millions..but billions.

In this case Dawnstar...they bring the Church altar to you in our homes to promote more of this consumerism as a religion to substitute for Christianity by appealing to our egos. Our desire for "Beautiful " things, convenient things....to this very point of entitlement.

As to the big buildings you mention...this is textbook and I see alot of them about town. There is no such instruction to build such buildings in the Bible. None. Once again there is a strong precident and custom of building such majestic places in Paganism. Think very carefully on this one.
I have been in the place in Paris called Notre Dame Cathedral as a child. It was in the summer and I recall how cold and musty it smelled inside and also how eerie it was with all those vaults for the dead in the floor. I asked myself how many people suffered for this expense of constructing such a building?? Since I came to realize this trend...I began to look closer at what "appears" to be Christianity.

As to an altar...Dawnstar...an altar is a place for making sacrifice. There is no more Christian Sacrifice. It is finished!! What need is there for any altar? This should be a huge clue as to with what one is dealing. You do however need an altar continually in Paganism since Paganism is a system of works..doing good deeds to get saved or redeemed. Some kind of offereing or sacrifice is often needed here.

Are you catching on yet Dawnstar?

Choosing not to join in is not hiding. It is seperating from ...This historically Dawnstar..is called a sect..sectarian. The world system which is counterfeitting this is non sectarian/secular.

The doctrine is to come out from amongs them and be ye seperate. The world secular counterfeit system is to get everyone to join in in a bastardized religious counterfeit belief system and practice.
The most popular device to get over on people and sustain the entitlement mentality/religion in this day and time is the "Victim Dictum" stated in many places in this thread as well as others. This is obviously a devout religious belief system or at least a very affluent tool to control those not schooled in spotting it. hence it is also a very effective political tool to support the religion of Politics.
This is the OP's main thesis in just about any and all threads they post. It is their fingerprint..their modus operandi.

The correct term for the Christian Belief is Christianity...Dawnstar. The correct term for the others attempting to "appear Christian" is Counterfeit. Another term for the "appearance of Christian" is a knock off.

The attempt here is so often in threads like this to use a "knock off" to get over on Christians and Christianity.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 05:16 AM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 


ummm...ya know, in that little church I went to in TX. , there was an alter in it, and HIDDEN inside the alter, there was a baptismal....I do believe I have been in other churches that had the same setup. also, it is appropriate to offer prayers before an alter, isn't it? which is what the people in that church did.

the sabbath is fri at sunset till saturday at sunset, it wasn't the "pagan religions" that changed this, it was a pope of the CHRISTIAN Catholic church, by what I've read, he did it just to show to the people that he had the power to change such things. I am in no mood to get into a debate as to weather or not the sabbath should be kept or on what day it should be observed, but quite frankly, I tend to cringe a little when people refer to sunday as the sabbath. but....it wasn't a bunch of pagans in the surrounding countryside that changed the day of the sabbath, it was the church, probably intended to make the transition to christianity more acceptable to the "pagans". Jesus commanded the desciples to do whatever the priests instructed them to do, but, he said, don't do it in the same way that they do it... and the rest of the instruction seems to delve into the intentions behind what they were doing....ya know, pray in a closet so no one can hear you and admire your flowing words and such like that. it's the intentions behind the actions that are more important than the actions themselves. alters, crosses, all the rest aren't than important. what to meet with God, well...you can do that anywhere....look under a rock, you will find God.

but well, you risk pulling of the wheat with the tares, when you start trying to separate the "counterfeits" from the true believers based on appearances. this is why God tells us not to do this. I really don't believe that there are many churches in this country that don't have an alter, don't have a cross in their church, ect.....so are they all counterfeits, and the true believers are out there somewhere, gathering in the woods somewhere...or, are there counterfiets, some in high places, mixed in with misled christians and christians?
I think the latter is true. It was christians that did the witch burnings in the middle ages, they were misled by a few "counterfiets", but still, the blame does go to the christians for the misdeed! if the intention behind their actions were in line with God, they would have recognized these counterfiets long before they burned that many people! you can't learn from mistakes when you deny that you have made them. christians burned christians because they weren't goosestepping in the same manner as they were! this is why were are told not to separate the wheat from the tares!

it's interesting you bring in the feudal form of government, I take that to mean the kings, the castles, and the poor serfs that kept it all running. the form of governance that God chose for the people of Isreal originally didn't include those kings and such. they were ruled by the judges...ya know, much like those judges today that the conservative christians hate so much. they were to be ruled by the judges and the balance of justice...
but, the Isrealites became disenchanted with those judges and began crying out for a king like the nations around them had, and God finally relented and gave them their king....and well.....look around you, the kings, the presidents, the senators, and well......they just tend to throw justice out the window and rule by party agendas and doctrines.



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 06:22 AM
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reply to post by endrun
 



The Bible has many, many passages stating that women are lesser than men


Quote some scripture that out and out says Women are LESSER.
I dare you.


Thanks...



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 09:05 AM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 


Yeah..Dawnstar..Ive been to a lot of them like that too before I caught on.

Yes many churchs have baptismal tubs inside. My point is not against baptismal tubs but altars. No.... prayers need not be done before an altar. They can be done anywhere...anywhere...not just in church. I was baptized in a river...here locally.

The purpose of an altar is to make sacrifice. The Christian doctrine is that there is no need for sacrifice...no need for an altar. Interesting to me that this is not taught in most of what is called Christian Churchs today. Thus causing me to ask what is actually Christian...or is attempting to pass for Christian. Is their education and teaching/preaching ..incomplete?Deliberately or by accident??


the sabbath is Fri at sunset till saturday at sunset, it wasn't the "pagan religions" that changed this, it was a pope of the CHRISTIAN Catholic church, by what I've read, he did it just to show to the people that he had the power to change such things.


Please think this through carefully as to what you have stated here. Doing a thing to show one has power to change such ..is not Christian. It is pagan in origin. No such office in Christianity as Pope. Nor is there any such instruction to do as you are describing for power. You will however find this pattern over and over for power in paganism.

Also as stated in a previous posts..the Christian Sabbath is a person not a day. Sabbath meaning Rest...we rest in Him..not a day...but 24/7..in Him.

Christians generally meet on Sundays as this is the day most have off...but not all. Many meet or fellowship on Wednesday nights and not necessarily in a traditional building but peoples homes...even out in the open, restaurants etc.

As to making Christianity more acceptable to Pagans...no instruction, once again, to do this. The instruction is to not mix olde wine with new...leven with unleaven..light with darkness. Interestingly enough..many Christians have not a clue as to this instruction. Their teachers and preachers don't teach them.
Jekyll is correct in their implication about many holidays having pagan origins. Even the so called Christian Preachers and teachers do not teach this for fear of alienating their flocks....collection plates. IN this they are teaching and sponsoring paganism..not Christianity. They are mixing level with unleaven, new wine with old..light with darkness. In this these churchs are disobedient ...just as were the Children of Israel in Old Testament times. Going after strange gods.
I know of only a handful of obedient churchs who teach this history and knowledge. And these Churchs do not keep these holidays.

The wheat from the tares is to be done By God himself...when he calls his people Dawnstar. When the crop is harvested. At that time the tares are to be gathered and burned. In daily doings we are not to mix leven with unleaven..new wine with old..light with darkness. We are to separate when we discern such...not mix in. What churchs like Rome and others do not like is when people choose to separate from them. This is what the god of this world cannot stand. It endangers collection plates and hence the system of bondage they have worked so hard and so long to set up.

Like Jekyll..you have problems separating the Roman and other disobedient groups...going after other gods ...from Christian doctrine and then find it necessary to include all under such a blanket.
My point is that these groups..follow closer ..the fingerprint of paganism...not Christianity. This is also the problem with the OP and his thesis about Western Christian social structures.


it's interesting you bring in the feudal form of government, I take that to mean the kings, the castles, and the poor serfs that kept it all running. the form of governance that God chose for the people of Israel originally didn't include those kings and such. they were ruled by the judges...ya know, much like those judges today that the conservative christians hate so much. they were to be ruled by the judges and the balance of justice...
but, the Israelites became disenchanted with those judges and began crying out for a king like the nations around them had, and God finally relented and gave them their king....and well.....look around you, the kings, the presidents, the senators, and well......they just tend to throw justice out the window and rule by party agendas and doctrines.


You are quite correct here in this portion of your post. The Children of Israel did not originally have a king as did other nations. Indeed. The Lord of Hosts was to be their King and their God...not a man that they could see. They were not to be as were other nations. Interestingly enough, what is stated is that God gave them a king like other nations..not in His pleasure but in His "displeasure."
God was greatly displeased with His Chosen People in this. Is this not the exact same problem with a Pope??? Think it through. It is also the exact same problem with Nicolaitanism....a man made political power hungry hierarchy which the Lord says He hates. Think about this in relation to the religion we call politics. Think about this also in relation to many religious hierarchies for human power and control. It will clear up a lot of what we see around us.

I agree with you very much in that the ruling parties today ...tend to throw justice out the window and go with party politics. This is happening more and more noticable..and by a false spirit of entitlement. I call this trend by the biblical name..."Whoredom." They are all doing it. Going after strange gods. And by this political expedience selling the very souls of this nation for political lucre. Not much different from historical Rome ..is it?? Perhaps now you can understand why I so often refer to the body politic in its whoredom as a religion..even a church.
There were however ..others ..not of Rome also playing this method. Rome had no monopoly on this. The Church of England comes to mind..as does the Lutheran Church at a certain period in their history. They changed doctrines ..often privily..and went after strange gods..ie..paganism...and they told no one.

Thanks,
Orange




[edit on 17-10-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


Are you a Christian?
An Essene maybe?

If so,you are obviously aware that Christianity has its roots in Judaism,which in turn has its roots in Zoroastrianism;a pagan religion.


Do you follow only the Bible,or all the books that were once part of the scriptures such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Apocrypha??

If only the Bible then you are not following the full teachings of Jesus,but those picked out by men for their own selfish reasons.





Sorry jakyll, you can give me any ancient civilization you want. Most of them ..no matter what the religion claimed were as stated.


And your evidence for this?





No such office in Christianity as Pope. Nor is there any such instruction to do as you are describing for power. You will however find this pattern over and over for power in paganism.


Yes,there is no such office in Christianity,but neither is there in every pagan faith.Buddhists have the Dali Lama,thats about it.The head of many pagan religions are god's,Odin,Zeus,Krishna etc.These are not unified faiths with one human ruler over all followers like the Catholics or the Anglicans.



You seem to be forgetting that,with what we know at the moment,any faith based on the bible is predated by every faith but one.The Earth Mother faith goes back 20,000yrs.Statues of her have even been found in Israel,dating back at least 10,000yrs,yet you are arrogant enough to say that all these faiths are wrong,that (early) Christianity,the 2nd youngest faith on the planet,is right!







[edit on 17-10-2008 by jakyll]



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by jakyll
 

I am entering this conversation pretty late, and most of my comments are not really on topic, but still.

The dead sea scrolls are not really related in any way to Christianity (or are just as related as other copies of the Hebrew Bible). They are from a (non-christian) jewish perspective, and of the scriptural documents in it, none differ significantly from other copies of the Hebrew Bible. You may be referring to the Gnostic texts in the Nag Hammadi library.

Christianity is not the 2nd youngest religion. There are many many younger ones, even if you discount all these new religions popping up in modern times: Sikhism, the Bahá'í faith, Islam, etc.



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 11:37 AM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 





I am entering this conversation pretty late, and most of my comments are not really on topic, but still.


Welcome to the debate.





The dead sea scrolls are not really related in any way to Christianity (or are just as related as other copies of the Hebrew Bible). They are from a (non-christian) jewish perspective, and of the scriptural documents in it, none differ significantly from other copies of the Hebrew Bible. You may be referring to the Gnostic texts in the Nag Hammadi library.


The Old Testament is from a Jewish perspective,yet millions of Christians devote their lives to it.


Here's a list of the books,the number of manuscripts are in brackets.

Psalms(39) Deuteronomy(33) 1 Enoch(25) Genesis(24) Isaiah(22) Jubilees(21) Exodus(18) Leviticus (17) Numbers(11) Minor Prophets(10) Daniel(8) Jeremiah (6) Ezekiel(6) Job(6) 1&2 Samuel(4)

Prophecies by Ezekiel,Jeremiah and Daniel not found in the Bible are written in the Scrolls,as well as never before seen psalms attributed to King David and Joshua.And the last words of Joseph,Judah,Levi,Naphtali,and Amram (the father of Moses) are written down in the Scrolls.
Some scrolls contain previously unknown stories about biblical figures such as Enoch,Abraham,and Noah.The story of Abraham includes an explanation why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac.The Isaiah Scroll,found relatively intact,is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah.In fact,the scrolls are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found.


They were most likely written by the Essenes during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D.The Essenes are mentioned by Josephus and in a few other sources,but not in the New testament.The Essenes were a strict Torah observant,Messianic,new covenant Jewish sect.They were led by a priest they called the "Teacher of Righteousness," who was opposed and possibly killed by the establishment priesthood in Jerusalem.The enemies of the Qumran community were called the "Sons of Darkness"; they called themselves the "Sons of Light," "the poor," and members of "the Way." They thought of themselves as "the holy ones," who lived in "the house of holiness," because "the Holy Spirit" dwelt with them.


The Dead Sea Scrolls enhance our knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity.They represent a non-rabbinic form of Judaism and provide a wealth of comparative material for New Testament scholars,including many important parallels to the Jesus movement.They show Christianity to be rooted in Judaism and have been called the evolutionary link between the two.

I'd say they are of great importance.





Christianity is not the 2nd youngest religion. There are many many younger ones, even if you discount all these new religions popping up in modern times: Sikhism, the Bahá'í faith, Islam, etc.


The Bahá'í Faith is made up of the 3 major Abrahamic religions and Buddhism.

Anyway,i stand corrected,Christianity is the 3rd youngest religion after Sikhism and Islam.

Protestants,Anglicans,Sunni,Sufism etc,are just denominations of Islam and Christianity.





[edit on 17-10-2008 by jakyll]



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by jekyll
 


Jekyll,

You are not serious about this are you???


you are obviously aware that Christianity has its roots in Judaism,which in turn has its roots in Zoroastrianism;a pagan religion.


No I am not aware that Christianity has its origins or roots in Judaism. Christianity has its origins in the Old Testament..not Judaism. In the Hebrew Religion...going back to Adam and Eve....even the forming of this universe.

Judaism is something quite different. I cannot imagine where you get such a quantum assumption. You seem to be doing like the OP and thinking no one will catch it.
Much of today's Judaism is Occult Talmudism. Amazingly this is not known by most Believers. They havent a clue.
Oh..by the way..Occult Talmudism is Pagan in origin. Jews have no monopoly on Talmudism. Lots of other faiths use this and or this pattern.
Talmudism is something to which the Jews came into contact when doing the abominations into which the Lord told them not to get involved. They came into it big time in the captivity in Babylon. Zoroastrianism is likewise something to which the Hebrews were instructed not to get involved.
Kabbalah is no different ...they were told not to get involved in this too.

I bust out laughing every time I hear mention of Madonna.


Do you follow only the Bible,or all the books that were once part of the scriptures such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Apocrypha??

If only the Bible then you are not following the full teachings of Jesus,but those picked out by men for their own selfish reasons.


See the above comments about the Hebrew religion verses Judaism.

Think of it as having to make a choice of which Phariseeism do you want to follow...Hellenic Phariseeism...Roman Catholic. Or do you want to follow Judaic Phariseeism?? Take your pick..which Phariseeism do you want??
Notice the choice missing from this list..is Christian.??

My evidence for my statement about any of the religions you want ...being at a substance level or lower..in support of Sir Chancelots statements...is the Fruit ..the Fruit they produce. They are inert..dead...
Many of the Western nations attempting to go back to Socialist forms..will also produce the same fruit as produced by Feudalism..deadness and inertness...because they are eventually all the same.


Yes,there is no such office in Christianity,but neither is there in every pagan faith.Buddhists have the Dali Lama,that's about it.The head of many pagan religions are god's,Odin,Zeus,Krishna etc.These are not unified faiths with one human ruler over all followers like the Catholics or the Anglicans.


strange statement Jekyll..very strange since you are wont to use Catholic as representing most or even all of Christianity..yet admit their is no such office in Christianity. Could it possibly be that Catholic dogma is not Christian at all?? But appears to be like Christian. Once again..they ..Catholic have no monopoly in this since historically they have much competition for the same power or offices. You really need to work on this a bit....flesh it out more in thinking.

Nonetheless ...what fruit did these religions produce among their nations and peoples. What fruit that stood the test of time for people themselves??


You seem to be forgetting that,with what we know at the moment,any faith based on the bible is predated by every faith but one.The Earth Mother faith goes back 20,000yrs.Statues of her have even been found in Israel,dating back at least 10,000yrs,yet you are arrogant enough to say that all these faiths are wrong,that (early) Christianity,the 2nd youngest faith on the planet,is right!


You keep beating this horse to death..just like madnessinmysoul. No problem here. Once again ..it is the fruit. All the Earth Mother religions produced no lasting fruit..nor raised the standard of living among their adherents above the substance level. I think Sir Chancelot described this as above the grass hut level. He got it correct.

Babloyi got it exactly correct here. Well stated Babloyi.


The dead sea scrolls are not really related in any way to Christianity (or are just as related as other copies of the Hebrew Bible). They are from a (non-christian) jewish perspective, and of the scriptural documents in it, none differ significantly from other copies of the Hebrew Bible.


A Lot of what is translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls are Jewish God stories.

However ..one of the books found mostly complete is the book of Isaiah...just as it is translated in the King James Bible...or AV 1611.

It is my belief that someone was waiting for some new and wonderful revelation from these scrolls. Finding none they took their time to make them fully public. No hurry when they found nothing new.

Don'T worry..they are still looking for something new ..some new Magick revelation.

Thanks,
Orangetom






[edit on 17-10-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 09:06 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 





You keep beating this horse to death..just like madnessinmysoul. No problem here. Once again ..it is the fruit. All the Earth Mother religions produced no lasting fruit..nor raised the standard of living among their adherents above the substance level. I think Sir Chancelot described this as above the grass hut level. He got it correct.


As we have little information of what life was like 20,000yrs ago we can not know what fruit came from such a faith,or what life was like for its followers.


3 things happen when one faith comes up against another;one is either destroyed,accepted or assimilated.

The feminine/mother worship was assimilated into the religions of the Greeks,Romans,Celts etc etc.These faiths in turn have been destroyed by the Abrahamic religions.And no matter how you look at it,these denominations are the fruits of the OT and the teachings of Jesus.
They may not be the truth,they may not be what was intended,but they are still the fruit.


And you can call the faith of the OT whatever you want,its still has its roots based in paganism.





strange statement Jekyll..very strange since you are wont to use Catholic as representing most or even all of Christianity..yet admit their is no such office in Christianity. Could it possibly be that Catholic dogma is not Christian at all?? But appears to be like Christian. Once again..they ..Catholic have no monopoly in this since historically they have much competition for the same power or offices. You really need to work on this a bit....flesh it out more in thinking.


My reasons for using the Catholic faith is for one reason only;it has been the prevailing faith in the west for centuries.This is the faith that has controlled and manipulated people's lives and attitudes for too many years.I cannot say that it is the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Assyrian Church that has done this in the west because they haven't.

It sees itself as Christian,yet i don't believe it is.Too many of its teachings go against and contradict the bible.







[edit on 17-10-2008 by jakyll]



posted on Oct, 18 2008 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


No.... prayers need not be done before an altar. They can be done anywhere...anywhere...not just in church. I was baptized in a river...here locally.


no kidding, ya know what, they can even be done in a school, with words unuttered, so what's all the hopla about prayer being taken out of school? if it has been, it's only because the christians quite praying them....
oh, they are talking about those other prayers, the ones like the saducees and the pharisees were praying, full of wonderfull words for all to hear and admire....prayers said by one that were susposed to be endeared by all who hear.....ever had someone lead a prayer and then in the middle of it, you thinking to yourself, opps, god.....that one just isn't right, and you feel yourself pulling out of the prayer?
and yes, prayers can also done at an alter of a church...like you said...they can be said anywhere, anytime....
unless of course, you want your prayer to be heard by everyone, and not in a closet with no one around.


Please think this through carefully as to what you have stated here. Doing a thing to show one has power to change such ..is not Christian. It is pagan in origin. No such office in Christianity as Pope. Nor is there any such instruction to do as you are describing for power. You will however find this pattern over and over for power in paganism.

Also as stated in a previous posts..the Christian Sabbath is a person not a day. Sabbath meaning Rest...we rest in Him..not a day...but 24/7..in Him.

Christians generally meet on Sundays as this is the day most have off...but not all. Many meet or fellowship on Wednesday nights and not necessarily in a traditional building but peoples homes...even out in the open, restaurants etc.


most people have sunday off, because a century or so ago, the christians were taking sunday as thier sabbath, thus no work...just like it wasn't long ago that no one could buy much of anything on sundays......worship on sunday isn't the fruit of the workweek, but rathers the workweek is the fruit of the worship!
and, I never said I thought that that pope was right, or correct, or in any way godly to change the sabbath to sunday....it was more of a show of power, a power greater than God himself, or so he thought.


As to making Christianity more acceptable to Pagans...no instruction, once again, to do this. The instruction is to not mix olde wine with new...leven with unleaven..light with darkness. Interestingly enough..many Christians have not a clue as to this instruction. Their teachers and preachers don't teach them.


again, no kidding, but well, when the motive of the church leaders devert from doing those things that God instructed to gathering more flock to have power over, more lands to conquers, well....
I guess polluting the original believes a little is justified for the greater good, more people hear the words of God right, make it easier for them to tranfer over to the belief system, even in it's polluted form, well.....there's more christians in the world!!! God must be pleased with that, should he, the catholic church, their leaders, I am sure were! heck, who cares if there's one little segment that has hullucinogenic drugs as part of their doctrine! they are christian, the christian power is increased in the world....another one of those "pagan" religions has been destroyed, all evidence of it's existance nearly obliterated from view!


Like Jekyll..you have problems separating the Roman and other disobedient groups...going after other gods ...from Christian doctrine and then find it necessary to include all under such a blanket.


no, my problem is that as I see it, this mixing in, this having leaders pop up every now and then throughout history, not since the beginning of the christian church, not since the bablyonian captivity, heck go all the way back to the creation story in the bible, well....way too many of the leaders were more intent on gaining the power, gaining the lands, gaining the wealth than were actually interested in what any God may have been trying to tell them!
thus, anyone now who really does try to find a way to God, is stuck trying to sort through the rift raft discarding much while keeping very little.
the religion is polluted, name me one church that you think actually keeps the way the way that God has described from us to live.


God was greatly displeased with His Chosen People in this. Is this not the exact same problem with a Pope??? Think it through. It is also the exact same problem with Nicolaitanism....a man made political power hungry hierarchy which the Lord says He hates. Think about this in relation to the religion we call politics. Think about this also in relation to many religious hierarchies for human power and control. It will clear up a lot of what we see around us.


and well, the trick to any hierarchy is that those who find themselves having someone in power over them, also have power over another......all the way down the last group, who is made defenseless and powerless.....
namely, women, children, and slaves!!! thus, everyone is busy struggling to maintain the power they have to actually do much against the power that others have over them.
making women one of the last notches of this hierarchy is a tool used to indoctrinate the children early into this system. they system isn't of God, remember, Jesus' flock will hear his voice, and obey only him! the only reason we are following the heirarchy powers is because he told us to, obey the masters, do as the pharisees and sadducees say, but not like them, do it out of love! love is the key out of the hierarchy power system. if you can disobey your boss, your husband, or government, or all of the stupid "God's Laws" man has thrown in throughout history, .. out of love, then you are not wrong in any way. since it is Jesus who has instructed us to, and we are obeying him when we obey this false power system, then it is he, who at anytime can step in and say nope, not this time.....what God giveth. the christian adherance to the system, God can take away with a word to his flock!



posted on Oct, 18 2008 @ 10:28 AM
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Pretty shocking read but quite clearly demonstrates the delusional, mysogynistic,insecure,cowardly nature of islam's portrayal of women:
www.dhushara.com...



posted on Oct, 18 2008 @ 11:21 AM
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I think I have come to the conclusion that religion is evil. I have to go to church since I am 17 supposedly I am not yet old enough to have my own beliefs. I go to a church that believes that women are not supposed to speak out in church and especially not supposed to teach anything at church. They are not so extreme that they cover their heads yet my mom's "friend", David, goes so far as to call every girl with short hair a lesbian for some twisted reason. They do also believe that men have the authority from God to rule over women. They then try to make this sound okay by adding in the part where men should always treat women nicely. What? It sounds to me like they are telling the women is that, you are inferior to men, but you do have a purpose so we will treat you like a dog and give you treats and pat you on your head every once in while. You have to be a good dog though or you're going to the pound. This is horrible. Just more evidence that judaism, christianity, and islam were created by an evil entity.



posted on Oct, 19 2008 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by jekyll
 


Jekyll,

Tell me you are not serious here once again....


As we have little information of what life was like 20,000yrs ago we can not know what fruit came from such a faith,or what life was like for its followers.


There is a discipline under the scientific field called Archeology..also the field I think is called Paleontology. I don't exactly know the name of the scientific discipline but it has to do with Maps and studying terrain..not just currently but also looking back to ancient times as to how the land and its contours were configured. All of these are scientific disciplines.

A narrative I found very interesting in National Geographic magazine was the story of the Archaeological dig in a Native American cave which was along what was known of the Indian nomadic seasonal migration routes. Digging down several layers into the bottom of the cave...the found two of some kind of woven rattan type artifacts. For awhile the "Experts" were stumped as to what these artifacts could be. Finally someone came to the dig and quickly explained that these two items looked like duck decoys. Sure enough ..that is precisely what they turned out to be. Consulting map experts on the contours of the land..they also deduced that not far from the cave at some time back in history was a lake. I found this account in National Geographic very fascinating as to how much could be found and learned about a people, even a nomadic type people from a dig such as this.

We know quite a bit about ancient peoples...what they did as well as what they did not do. The very knowledge of if they did or did not have the ability to write or accomplish difficult complex mathematical systems...tells us a lot when contrasted with other peoples.

One thing we do know with certainty is that all peoples throughout the world had some kind of religion. Lots of evidences of this. Evidence of a religion is one clear way of cataloging a dig as human or other animal origins. If not from writings discovered than from their very folklore which survives unto this day. If we know that a people had a religion then we also can know what type or caliber of religion they had...also the fruit of their religion..or conversely the non fruit.


My reasons for using the Catholic faith is for one reason only;it has been the prevailing faith in the west for centuries.This is the faith that has controlled and manipulated people's lives and attitudes for too many years.I cannot say that it is the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Assyrian Church that has done this in the west because they haven't.

It sees itself as Christian,yet i don't believe it is.Too many of its teachings go against and contradict the bible.


Very strange statement you have made here. If the catholic faith is not Christian it must be Pagan. You are using a pagan template to describe and define the shortcomings of Christianity. You don't see a problem here??

This is precisely part of the problem with the OP and their position. So many times in their rant against Christianity they use the template of Rome to illustrate all the faults of Christianity. I have seen them do this over and over and over ..in their time warp technique. They are not accustomed to being called on it but only defaulted through.
It is sad but true that most of my Christian Brethren do not have enough knowledge or insight to challenge or question these types of posts. Some of them can be dumber than a box of rocks about any and everything including Christianity. As I stated..sad but true...not much Salt in them.

There is no greater factor which will determine the economic status of a people and a nation outside of religion. You have the right religion...and prosperity takes place...the wrong religion and chaos and stagnation takes place.

The major long term beneficiaries of the economic affluence of the Western Christian nations has been the women and the children.

Almost any and everywhere you see economic affluence and progress in the world above a subsistence level it was exported to these nations from Western Christian nations. And by thus the economic conditions began to get better for these Nations, their women and children as well.


3 things happen when one faith comes up against another;one is either destroyed,accepted or assimilated.


When I read most of what passes for history today...it is obvious to me that the wars and chaos of this world is mostly one pagan nation fighting wars against another pagan nation..or combines of these nations fighting against other combines. Alliances if you like.
My first clear hint of this was the video so often shown on the History Channel of the Surrender of the Japanese Nation on the battleship Missouri in Tokyo Harbor in 1945. It was clear to me by what I was watching ...the rites and rituals of certain organized pagan nations ..one pagan nation surrendering to another combine of pagan nations. Once convinced of this I took a closer read of WW1 and discerned the same pattern and fingerprint. It was not difficult to discern. The same with the wars in Europe of from the French Revolution up to WW 1 and there have been many of them.

The American Civil war is no different.

You see..Jakyll...when Gods Champions fight wars and conflicts the casualties are not huge...on the side of his people under his blessing and guidance.

This cannot be said for most of mens wars and conflicts recorded in history...under pagan domination. The known fingerprint and pattern of pagan conflicts is..

"For they have filled the land with violence." On and on and on and on..ad nauseum. This is how one knows a pagan war and conflict.


The feminine/mother worship was assimilated into the religions of the Greeks,Romans,Celts etc etc.These faiths in turn have been destroyed by the Abrahamic religions.And no matter how you look at it,these denominations are the fruits of the OT and the teachings of Jesus.
They may not be the truth,they may not be what was intended,but they are still the fruit.


They have not been destroyed at all. They have for centuries been hidden and concealed protected and cherished by certain institutions. Today many of them are being taught in our institutions of "higher learning." They are making a come back as "enlightenment wisdom, sophism, gnosticism." This is how I know they have not been destroyed and your statement is false.
The Occult pattern and fingerprint is still with us and heavily invested by our body politic. They are attempting to bring this ancient system back to fruition under the guise of the sophist...utopia. Man made Eden.
Who did I tell you was financing our public education systems?? The body politic. It is not difficult to connect these dots.

And you can call the faith of the OT whatever you want,its still has its roots based in paganism.

Not possible ...Jekyll. Our Father Abraham ..did not take part in the pagan abominations of the nations surrounding him. This is recorded..as Abraham being Faithful.
Moses...was not an ordinary Egyptian. He was raised from childhood as the son of Pharaoh's sister..in the inner court..including the religious rites and rituals of the Egyptian Royalty. He of all men knew what was going on in the Egyptian temples and among the priesthoods.
Yet after his conversion by God..we see him taking part in none of this paganism.
During the Exodus..we see those who attempted to go back to the Pagan rituals and rites of those nations they had departed...these people were destroyed for these abominations.This and other demonstrations and readings from the Word show clearly that the Old Testament has no doings with the rites and rituals of the pagan nations. It is called abomination and whoredom. There are warnings over and over on this in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.

Well enough on that for now. Work to do around here. Hope this helps you and other readers out here.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 03:57 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


on the one hand you say....


Almost any and everywhere you see economic affluence and progress in the world above a subsistence level it was exported to these nations from Western Christian nations. And by thus the economic conditions began to get better for these Nations, their women and children as well.


but then you go on to.....


it is obvious to me that the wars and chaos of this world is mostly one pagan nation fighting wars against another pagan nation..or combines of these nations fighting against other combines. Alliances if you like.
My first clear hint of this was the video so often shown on the History Channel of the Surrender of the Japanese Nation on the battleship Missouri in Tokyo Harbor in 1945. It was clear to me by what I was watching ...the rites and rituals of certain organized pagan nations ..one pagan nation surrendering to another combine of pagan nations. Once convinced of this I took a closer read of WW1 and discerned the same pattern and fingerprint. It was not difficult to discern. The same with the wars in Europe of from the French Revolution up to WW 1 and there have been many of them.


so, are they christian, or are these pagan nations, or is it more that we can interchange their labels when it suits the argument one wishes to make?



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