The Religious Conspiracy Against Women
page: 2 reply to post by orangetom1999
wow, one piece of incidental evidence and talking about society at large. i was talking about a very real movement in the evangelical christian community and other fundamentalist christian groups that oppresses women.
i was talking about how the christian religious book explicitly states that women are to be oppressed
i was talking about how people make such a ruckus about how the koran tells people to treat women, but they don't even take a second to look at how the bible talks about things.
i was talking about a very real truth that, in some churches (including ones that members on this website go to), women aren't allowed to teach men.
and, most of all, i was talking about how this country completely ignores all of the religious brainwashing that goes into the belief that women are to be subservient.
wow, one piece of incidental evidence and talking about society at large. i was talking about a very real movement in the evangelical christian community and other fundamentalist christian groups that oppresses women.
i was talking about how the christian religious book explicitly states that women are to be oppressed
i was talking about how people make such a ruckus about how the koran tells people to treat women, but they don't even take a second to look at how the bible talks about things.
i was talking about a very real truth that, in some churches (including ones that members on this website go to), women aren't allowed to teach men.
and, most of all, i was talking about how this country completely ignores all of the religious brainwashing that goes into the belief that women are to be subservient.
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
LOL LOL LOL,
Madnessinmysoul,
Obviously the conditions you ascribe to the Western Christian Churchs...the template you describe is not working across the board here in the west for the very reasons or examples I illustrate. You do not seem to realize Madness ...that in most Churchs ...the day to day buisness is handled by women ..yes?? Not so much men...but women.
I just dont see the persecution and victimization of which you are so adamant about describing and attributing to Western Christian Civilization.
You do also realize Madnessinmysoul...that it was religion and the breaking away from Rome...which caused the industrial revolution...and which was to go on to make some Western Nations and their peoples more productive and able to reap the benifits of thier labors...yes?? This increased the standard of living across the board...for certain nations...Northern Germany ...the Lowland countrys and England. Eventually this standard of living spread to the Americas. This is the trait I mentioned in that within 200 years of AD 1519 that certain writers were to notice a difference in the standard of living in some nations and people and not in others.
You did not see this change happening for example ..in South America...not happening in Sovite Russia....nor China. Any of these other nations where you see this influence or affluance taking place ..it was exported from one of these other nations...by commerce.
There is nothing which determines the standard of liiving ...economics...like a nations religion. Sorry..but education alone/wisdom does not do it...Soviet Russia is a prime example of this.
Any economic affluence done by nations like Saudi Arabia came from Western Christian nations. It did not originate with them. Along with this economic affluence came the ability of the women of these Western Christian nations to make more and more decisions for thier familys..and also themselves.
When I see folks like you and with your religious beliefs posting such, it becomes obvious what you are trying to do and what you are trying to ignore. No problem with me, as I understand that this concept will not be taught in public schools in thier attempt to put all religions as the same religion. Just like many of our politicians.
No Madnessinmysoul..you were talking about opression of women in Western Christian Society at large and trying to attribute this to Fundamentalist Christian Churchs and Christian doctrine as a result of this "Victimization." Here..from page one of this thread.
And then you attempt to cover it up with this....
I am talking about way more than one piece of incidental evidence as this is all around us. And you Madnessinmysoul were making reference to Western Christian Societys at a whole..not Western Christian Churchs. You were trying to attribute this Victimization of Western Christian Societys to Western Christian Fundamentalists and such Churchs. Obviously this template you describe if false...extremely false...the 7 to 1 ratio of goods directed to women verseses men in most department stores is simple proof that your template does not apply..cell phones are another...automobiles are another the purchasing of homes and the furnishings to equip them another. I can go on and on in the list of proofs that women make thousands of decisions daily which affect themselves and thier familys.
You on the other hand are talking about one piece of incidental evidence and attempting to paint the whole of Western Christian Social structure with this brush. One trip down the street and it is obvious that your template does not apply...you are using the wrong brush in making your point/points.
No problem once again..Madnessinmysoul. Please keep it up with your templates and I will post examples that this does not apply and that your sense of proportions and emotions is false. I can even take it further from that point...to the next level in rational thinking.
Notice here also that I am not quoting Bible Verses..but simply using what we see around us here daily.
Thanks for your post,
Orangetom
[edit on 15-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
LOL LOL LOL,
Madnessinmysoul,
Obviously the conditions you ascribe to the Western Christian Churchs...the template you describe is not working across the board here in the west for the very reasons or examples I illustrate. You do not seem to realize Madness ...that in most Churchs ...the day to day buisness is handled by women ..yes?? Not so much men...but women.
I just dont see the persecution and victimization of which you are so adamant about describing and attributing to Western Christian Civilization.
You do also realize Madnessinmysoul...that it was religion and the breaking away from Rome...which caused the industrial revolution...and which was to go on to make some Western Nations and their peoples more productive and able to reap the benifits of thier labors...yes?? This increased the standard of living across the board...for certain nations...Northern Germany ...the Lowland countrys and England. Eventually this standard of living spread to the Americas. This is the trait I mentioned in that within 200 years of AD 1519 that certain writers were to notice a difference in the standard of living in some nations and people and not in others.
You did not see this change happening for example ..in South America...not happening in Sovite Russia....nor China. Any of these other nations where you see this influence or affluance taking place ..it was exported from one of these other nations...by commerce.
There is nothing which determines the standard of liiving ...economics...like a nations religion. Sorry..but education alone/wisdom does not do it...Soviet Russia is a prime example of this.
Any economic affluence done by nations like Saudi Arabia came from Western Christian nations. It did not originate with them. Along with this economic affluence came the ability of the women of these Western Christian nations to make more and more decisions for thier familys..and also themselves.
When I see folks like you and with your religious beliefs posting such, it becomes obvious what you are trying to do and what you are trying to ignore. No problem with me, as I understand that this concept will not be taught in public schools in thier attempt to put all religions as the same religion. Just like many of our politicians.
No Madnessinmysoul..you were talking about opression of women in Western Christian Society at large and trying to attribute this to Fundamentalist Christian Churchs and Christian doctrine as a result of this "Victimization." Here..from page one of this thread.
What isn't talked about at length is the oppression of women in Christian societies. It is far more discreet and a product of the subcultures of the nations as opposed to laws that are heavily enforced, but it's still there.
And then you attempt to cover it up with this....
wow, one piece of incidental evidence and talking about society at large. i was talking about a very real movement in the evangelical christian community and other fundamentalist christian groups that oppresses women.
I am talking about way more than one piece of incidental evidence as this is all around us. And you Madnessinmysoul were making reference to Western Christian Societys at a whole..not Western Christian Churchs. You were trying to attribute this Victimization of Western Christian Societys to Western Christian Fundamentalists and such Churchs. Obviously this template you describe if false...extremely false...the 7 to 1 ratio of goods directed to women verseses men in most department stores is simple proof that your template does not apply..cell phones are another...automobiles are another the purchasing of homes and the furnishings to equip them another. I can go on and on in the list of proofs that women make thousands of decisions daily which affect themselves and thier familys.
You on the other hand are talking about one piece of incidental evidence and attempting to paint the whole of Western Christian Social structure with this brush. One trip down the street and it is obvious that your template does not apply...you are using the wrong brush in making your point/points.
No problem once again..Madnessinmysoul. Please keep it up with your templates and I will post examples that this does not apply and that your sense of proportions and emotions is false. I can even take it further from that point...to the next level in rational thinking.
Notice here also that I am not quoting Bible Verses..but simply using what we see around us here daily.
Thanks for your post,
Orangetom
[edit on 15-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
I can't resist this Madnessinmysoul...sorry but I just can't resist.
I really dont like to watch these programs on the boob tube but when my woman comes over she likes to watch this stuff like Antiques Roadshow...also a genre of programs which have proliferated about how to turn a house..how to purchase a house...etc etc etc.
Often in these programs a couple ..man and woman are touring with the realators from house to house...property to property and seeing the offerings.
You know Madnessinmysoul...what is so obvious in these programs ..especially since this is a big ticket item...is how often the woman is so downtrodden and a victim of brutality..in the decisionmaking of what features are desirable or undesirable in these homes up for consideration. The women in this process are just such brutalized victims. Totally ignored in the decision making process. They have no input into what features are desired or desirable in a purchased home. Have you noticed this dominant doormat type trend Madnessinmysoul??
It is the same with this other genre of Flip this House or Trading houses...type programs. Once again the woman is totally absent from any of the decisions concerning these big ticket modificactions to a home.
Have you noticed Madnessinmysoul..the total Victiimization taking place in these formats?? You know what I mean..here in the Western Christian World.??
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 16-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
I really dont like to watch these programs on the boob tube but when my woman comes over she likes to watch this stuff like Antiques Roadshow...also a genre of programs which have proliferated about how to turn a house..how to purchase a house...etc etc etc.
Often in these programs a couple ..man and woman are touring with the realators from house to house...property to property and seeing the offerings.
You know Madnessinmysoul...what is so obvious in these programs ..especially since this is a big ticket item...is how often the woman is so downtrodden and a victim of brutality..in the decisionmaking of what features are desirable or undesirable in these homes up for consideration. The women in this process are just such brutalized victims. Totally ignored in the decision making process. They have no input into what features are desired or desirable in a purchased home. Have you noticed this dominant doormat type trend Madnessinmysoul??
It is the same with this other genre of Flip this House or Trading houses...type programs. Once again the woman is totally absent from any of the decisions concerning these big ticket modificactions to a home.
Have you noticed Madnessinmysoul..the total Victiimization taking place in these formats?? You know what I mean..here in the Western Christian World.??
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 16-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
reply to post by orangetom1999
alright, just go on ahead ignoring all the women who are abused and subjugated in the name of god in the west
hell, they're even sex slaves in some parts.
there are those horrid polygamist sects that follow the word of god...actually, they follow it quite clearly, seeing as the bible never really says much about monogamy (except for the clergy)
alright, just go on ahead ignoring all the women who are abused and subjugated in the name of god in the west
hell, they're even sex slaves in some parts.
there are those horrid polygamist sects that follow the word of god...actually, they follow it quite clearly, seeing as the bible never really says much about monogamy (except for the clergy)
who makes themselves the judge of what should and shouldn't be in the first place?
While we're on the subject, is there anyone here who can say that the sexes are equal?
Keep in mind that prejudice is valid when considering a group, but not an individual.
While we're on the subject, is there anyone here who can say that the sexes are equal?
Keep in mind that prejudice is valid when considering a group, but not an individual.
Sorry again Madnessinmysoul,
I just cannot buy into all that emoting you are doing about women in the west. Nor about women in Saudi Arabia or was the other country Afganistan??
There is no more or greater loss of power than loss of life in this world.
I wonder if you are even aware of the statistics on ages of survival between men and women? I say this particularly in the Western Christian Nations?
Do you have any idea what the lifespans were say...like 100 years ago...how about today?? By this I mean male and female both??
Either way you cut it ..the females on the average outlive the males...both today and even 100 years ago. Yet you want to put emphasis on some "perceived victim status." I just dont see it happening Madnessinmysoul. I especially dont see it happening today. Males still die at younger ages than most females.
Are you trying to tell or imply to me that the women in the West are looking for the ability to die at the same or younger ages than men in a sense of fairness and equality or to get around some perceived persecution?? In order to level the playing field.
Madnessinmysoul...if males are dying at younger ages...than females here in the west....I suggest to you that the religious social stigma is against males ..not females. You are arguing the wrong points here.
.
If you want that much fairness equality and a level playing field...figure out why males die off faster than females...since there is no more or greater loss of power and control here in this earth than loss of life. Especially in the secular realm. It must be social religious persecution to the males...Madnessinmysoul because you dont know how to debate anything else.
I have news and informations for you Madnessinmysoul...both women and men 100 years ago worked more and much harder to survive than today. Yet the men died off faster and at younger ages than the women. I cannot imagine what you are complaining about.
You want to talk about persecution...in that polygamist sect!! In spite of my disapproval of what happened there...I knew it was very wrong for the "Secular Government" to remove those children from the care of thier familys. I knew it was glaringly wrong. Those familys were persecuted by the Secular Government...concerning thier children. Thank God that someone in the court system had some common sense.
I would also think that in such a system as in that sect ...many of those people and the children did not have social security numbers..which also puts them outside the jurisdiction of the secular courts. This is a piece of information the government and the secular court system would never want the general public to know. Some of the public would catch on and drop thier social security numbers....ie... drop out of the social security system...ie..step outside the jurisdiction of the persecuting Admiralty Maritime court system. I think they...the courts.. got caught in the social security number snafu.
Nonetheless...I dont see all this persecution, browbeating, and downtroddeness of which you speak here in Western Christian Civilization among women. Women here have it so fantastically good..compared to other nations.
Thanks,
Orangetom
I just cannot buy into all that emoting you are doing about women in the west. Nor about women in Saudi Arabia or was the other country Afganistan??
There is no more or greater loss of power than loss of life in this world.
I wonder if you are even aware of the statistics on ages of survival between men and women? I say this particularly in the Western Christian Nations?
Do you have any idea what the lifespans were say...like 100 years ago...how about today?? By this I mean male and female both??
Either way you cut it ..the females on the average outlive the males...both today and even 100 years ago. Yet you want to put emphasis on some "perceived victim status." I just dont see it happening Madnessinmysoul. I especially dont see it happening today. Males still die at younger ages than most females.
Are you trying to tell or imply to me that the women in the West are looking for the ability to die at the same or younger ages than men in a sense of fairness and equality or to get around some perceived persecution?? In order to level the playing field.
Madnessinmysoul...if males are dying at younger ages...than females here in the west....I suggest to you that the religious social stigma is against males ..not females. You are arguing the wrong points here.
.
If you want that much fairness equality and a level playing field...figure out why males die off faster than females...since there is no more or greater loss of power and control here in this earth than loss of life. Especially in the secular realm. It must be social religious persecution to the males...Madnessinmysoul because you dont know how to debate anything else.
I have news and informations for you Madnessinmysoul...both women and men 100 years ago worked more and much harder to survive than today. Yet the men died off faster and at younger ages than the women. I cannot imagine what you are complaining about.
You want to talk about persecution...in that polygamist sect!! In spite of my disapproval of what happened there...I knew it was very wrong for the "Secular Government" to remove those children from the care of thier familys. I knew it was glaringly wrong. Those familys were persecuted by the Secular Government...concerning thier children. Thank God that someone in the court system had some common sense.
I would also think that in such a system as in that sect ...many of those people and the children did not have social security numbers..which also puts them outside the jurisdiction of the secular courts. This is a piece of information the government and the secular court system would never want the general public to know. Some of the public would catch on and drop thier social security numbers....ie... drop out of the social security system...ie..step outside the jurisdiction of the persecuting Admiralty Maritime court system. I think they...the courts.. got caught in the social security number snafu.
Nonetheless...I dont see all this persecution, browbeating, and downtroddeness of which you speak here in Western Christian Civilization among women. Women here have it so fantastically good..compared to other nations.
Thanks,
Orangetom
reply to post by orangetom1999
um...women have two X chromosomes, that's why they tend to live longer.
about as simple as it gets.
and your 100 years ago estimates are way off...the average life span for a woman was shorter because she was more likely to die in childbirth. that severely affected the average lifespan...
and you make a good point somewhere...ah, there, at the end.
emphasis added
they have it good compared to other nations...but they aren't truly equal and they're still abused.
also, they don't always have it fantastically good
i'll give a brief example from a member's congregation (name exluded)'s church doesn't allow women to teach men.
that's just idiotic sexism.
there is a lot of this peppered throughout america, it's not everywhere and it's not the norm, but it's there. there are thousands of women suffering and there is quite the high level of abuse towards women in relationships
the rate of rape is too high...hell, it being 1 in 300 million should be too high, but it's much higher than that.
women are abused and raped every single day in america, why don't we step up and fix that before we send the military into other nations to give their women rights?
on a side note, that same military has an even higher rate of rape, with soldiers raping their fellow female soldiers at a shockingly high rate and women in the countries they live in...well, that's just another horror story.
how can you say women have it so well when they have to put up with rape and battery?
um...women have two X chromosomes, that's why they tend to live longer.
about as simple as it gets.
and your 100 years ago estimates are way off...the average life span for a woman was shorter because she was more likely to die in childbirth. that severely affected the average lifespan...
and you make a good point somewhere...ah, there, at the end.
Women here have it so fantastically good..compared to other nations.
emphasis added
they have it good compared to other nations...but they aren't truly equal and they're still abused.
also, they don't always have it fantastically good
i'll give a brief example from a member's congregation (name exluded)'s church doesn't allow women to teach men.
that's just idiotic sexism.
there is a lot of this peppered throughout america, it's not everywhere and it's not the norm, but it's there. there are thousands of women suffering and there is quite the high level of abuse towards women in relationships
the rate of rape is too high...hell, it being 1 in 300 million should be too high, but it's much higher than that.
women are abused and raped every single day in america, why don't we step up and fix that before we send the military into other nations to give their women rights?
on a side note, that same military has an even higher rate of rape, with soldiers raping their fellow female soldiers at a shockingly high rate and women in the countries they live in...well, that's just another horror story.
how can you say women have it so well when they have to put up with rape and battery?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
they aren't truly equal
To be equal would imply that they are the same as men. It's apparently obvious they are not.
MIMS are you a woman? You don't have to answer, but i've been curious.
[edit on 6/18/2008 by JPhish]
Madnessinmsoul and JPhish,
Yes I too have noticed that about a Madnessinmysoul's fingerprint. Highly femminine..not necessarily female but femminine...meaning of this world and the mind set on the things of this world.
However Madnessinmysoul...The average lifespan in years past was indeed shorter than today..quite correct here. Nonetheless women still lived longer than the male. I know this simply by going to various graveyards and looking at the gravestones. You see nonticably more women back then buried next to their recently born offspring.
What you also see ...Madnessinmysoul..is the men dying years before their womem. You still see this today...in so called persecuted times.
You want to put this down to chromosones...I put this down to RISK factors. Men are more wont to take RISKS in earning thier livings than are women. This was true back then and it is also true today.
What you are not seeing then or today is women arguing or fighting for the right to take RISKS as do men. YOu start throwing in RISK factors and you seperate the women from the girls and the men from the boys like ...right now!!
Nonetheless ..it is the men who have taken the RISKS for the standards fo living so taken for granted by the women..especially today ..where this standard has often translated into an entitlement standard. Even an entitlement religious belief system.
Madnessinmysoul you come across here very strangely..when one thinks it through carefully.
The problem I have with posts such as yours is that you come across as if having it good or even fantastically good in this Western Christian Social Structure is an entitlement. It is something that someone deserves. I cannot buy into such. Having it fanstatically good is not an entitlement.
Entitlement practices ..Madnessinmysoul are not equality nor are they sharing RISK in equality. THey are default settings to play through unchallanged or unquestioned. Entitlement mentalitys can in fact be considered..RAPE..social RAPE.
On your textbook topic of rape particularly in the military...here from a previous post I made.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Madnessinmysoul, I hear you pleading victimization ..over and over and over..many of your posts are very social about what you consider very important social injustices. They are almost all very femminine and female oriented. No problem here if that is all you know.
However...There are those of us out here who know and can demonstrate an arena in which the femminine and female dont want to trod nor will the bulk of them ever attempt to trod. Folks with your perspective tend to want to right the social ills of the world but never speak of the RISKS involved in righting the wrongs. Who is obligated by default to take the RISKS for this rightiousness.?? Who will suffer the discomforture to do this....the expense?? I can tell you with certainty..it will not be these women.
When I see posts like yours...I see that you are promoting more of what I call male expendability and disposability ..for the males of this world in an attempt to bring about what you percieve as a level playing field. I dont buy into it simply because I know it meas more expense, inconvenience, and discomfoture for me as a male.. And it also comes accross as another entitlement program.
When I see you post Madnessinmysoul...in threads like this ...I see you as very femminine. What you obviously do not know is that the femminine is also a very devout religious belief system. It falls under the Occult fingerprint. Hidden, concealed, esoteric. I know this because absent from your posts is who will take the RISK for all these attempts to level the playing field. This is also a definition of Poliitics which is also a religion and a Occult religion.
Just some additional informations for your consideration.
IF women in the Western Christian Nations have it so bad..they need to do the work and RISK necessary to change it..not default through unquestioned and unchallanged...ie through a religious system called Politics. Do the work..take the RISKS.
Thanks,
Orangetom
Yes I too have noticed that about a Madnessinmysoul's fingerprint. Highly femminine..not necessarily female but femminine...meaning of this world and the mind set on the things of this world.
However Madnessinmysoul...The average lifespan in years past was indeed shorter than today..quite correct here. Nonetheless women still lived longer than the male. I know this simply by going to various graveyards and looking at the gravestones. You see nonticably more women back then buried next to their recently born offspring.
What you also see ...Madnessinmysoul..is the men dying years before their womem. You still see this today...in so called persecuted times.
You want to put this down to chromosones...I put this down to RISK factors. Men are more wont to take RISKS in earning thier livings than are women. This was true back then and it is also true today.
What you are not seeing then or today is women arguing or fighting for the right to take RISKS as do men. YOu start throwing in RISK factors and you seperate the women from the girls and the men from the boys like ...right now!!
Nonetheless ..it is the men who have taken the RISKS for the standards fo living so taken for granted by the women..especially today ..where this standard has often translated into an entitlement standard. Even an entitlement religious belief system.
Madnessinmysoul you come across here very strangely..when one thinks it through carefully.
they have it good compared to other nations...but they aren't truly equal and they're still abused.
also, they don't always have it fantastically good
The problem I have with posts such as yours is that you come across as if having it good or even fantastically good in this Western Christian Social Structure is an entitlement. It is something that someone deserves. I cannot buy into such. Having it fanstatically good is not an entitlement.
Entitlement practices ..Madnessinmysoul are not equality nor are they sharing RISK in equality. THey are default settings to play through unchallanged or unquestioned. Entitlement mentalitys can in fact be considered..RAPE..social RAPE.
On your textbook topic of rape particularly in the military...here from a previous post I made.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Madnessinmysoul, I hear you pleading victimization ..over and over and over..many of your posts are very social about what you consider very important social injustices. They are almost all very femminine and female oriented. No problem here if that is all you know.
However...There are those of us out here who know and can demonstrate an arena in which the femminine and female dont want to trod nor will the bulk of them ever attempt to trod. Folks with your perspective tend to want to right the social ills of the world but never speak of the RISKS involved in righting the wrongs. Who is obligated by default to take the RISKS for this rightiousness.?? Who will suffer the discomforture to do this....the expense?? I can tell you with certainty..it will not be these women.
When I see posts like yours...I see that you are promoting more of what I call male expendability and disposability ..for the males of this world in an attempt to bring about what you percieve as a level playing field. I dont buy into it simply because I know it meas more expense, inconvenience, and discomfoture for me as a male.. And it also comes accross as another entitlement program.
When I see you post Madnessinmysoul...in threads like this ...I see you as very femminine. What you obviously do not know is that the femminine is also a very devout religious belief system. It falls under the Occult fingerprint. Hidden, concealed, esoteric. I know this because absent from your posts is who will take the RISK for all these attempts to level the playing field. This is also a definition of Poliitics which is also a religion and a Occult religion.
Just some additional informations for your consideration.
IF women in the Western Christian Nations have it so bad..they need to do the work and RISK necessary to change it..not default through unquestioned and unchallanged...ie through a religious system called Politics. Do the work..take the RISKS.
Thanks,
Orangetom
Seems to me that the OP by MIMS was about Christian teachings, not home depot, car lots, or economics.
As a former and recovering Jehovah's Witness I can say from experience that women did have to cover their heads before prayer and women couldn't lead prayer if men were present - the men were to do it. Women were to be subservient - period.
The Christian Bible that I own says, "To the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children; your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'" That's in Genisis chapter 3, verse 16.
Now, one could technically argue that God was only speaking to Eve and not all women, but I've never heard of a church that taught that.
Look at 1st Corinthians 14:34 and 35, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; they are to be submissive as the law also says.
And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church."
These are not "emotes" - they are verses straight from the Christian Bible.
How can one look at these and say that women have the upperhand in Christianity?
As a former and recovering Jehovah's Witness I can say from experience that women did have to cover their heads before prayer and women couldn't lead prayer if men were present - the men were to do it. Women were to be subservient - period.
The Christian Bible that I own says, "To the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children; your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'" That's in Genisis chapter 3, verse 16.
Now, one could technically argue that God was only speaking to Eve and not all women, but I've never heard of a church that taught that.
Look at 1st Corinthians 14:34 and 35, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; they are to be submissive as the law also says.
And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church."
These are not "emotes" - they are verses straight from the Christian Bible.
How can one look at these and say that women have the upperhand in Christianity?
Originally posted by MrBender
Seems to me that the OP by MIMS was about Christian teachings, not home depot, car lots, or economics.
As a former and recovering Jehovah's Witness I can say from experience that women did have to cover their heads before prayer and women couldn't lead prayer if men were present - the men were to do it. Women were to be subservient - period.
The Christian Bible that I own says, "To the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children; your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'" That's in Genisis chapter 3, verse 16.
Now, one could technically argue that God was only speaking to Eve and not all women, but I've never heard of a church that taught that.
Look at 1st Corinthians 14:34 and 35, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; they are to be submissive as the law also says.
And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church."
These are not "emotes" - they are verses straight from the Christian Bible.
How can one look at these and say that women have the upperhand in Christianity?
You are seriously joking about this right MrBender. With what one perceives as the upper hand..comes also more RISK and responsibility..yes. This does not mean options with someone else taking the RISK and bringing the options to them gratis? You do understand this right??
Is MIMS arguing for women taking more RISK in Western Christian Social structure to the point that they perish earlier than the men or even the children?? Is MIMS arguing for the women running things and then in more responsibility turning the bulk of thier proceeds or earnings over to the male and children for thier decision making where the females come in last.
Is MIMS arguing for the females buying more options for the males out of thier career earnings...in Equaltiy. More RISK. Less instant gratification and more instant gratification going to the male and kids from said career earnings.
Even in olde times ..the males did this for thier familys. Yet this seems to be totally overlooked in these types of posts in lieu of Victimization dogmas.
I cannot imagine what you and MIMS are thinking here. As I posted...just go to any of the stores or merchanize outlets anywhere across this land...and see how downtrodden and victimized the women in this country actually are...while talking on thier cell phones...driving around in their cars and vans....maintaining shopping channels on the boob tube...by purchases. ...supporting talk show formats so prevalant on the boob tube.
The fact that there exists such huge economic markets ..dedicated to supporting women and womens views ..consumption rates...denys the victimization so many people are wont to claim is going on in Western Christian Social Structures.
I just dont see the downtrodden victimization going on of which you and MIMS are wont to post.
It is obvious to me that the religious persecution claimed by MIMS is not going on here. No wonder they must use the technique of sticking people back in a time warp to make their points.
This is obviously a false technique because life was very difficult on both sexes back then ...it took even back then ..both sexes working and struggling to make a go of life. But once again...MIMS and others by default techniques overlook the male struggle..even back then in lieu of the female struggle. Totally ignored.
It is not difficult to shoot holes in a time warp technique if one knows any history at all.
As to women leading in prayer. ...Praying for what?? More consumption rates...less RISK and more OPtions. Getting someone else to take more RISK for them...gratis!!?? Praying for taking on more RESPONSIBILITY ...less time to watch the view and talk shows which reinforce more "victimization."
It is obvious to me that even in the Christian Churchs this downtrodden victimization template MIMS is using ...is not working.
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 19-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
OT, I don't know if you are just bitter in general about your role in society or if maybe you've gone through some bitter disappointment that you
blame on women - but it is apparently affecting your ability to remain on topic.
Unless I am mistaken, the topic here could be boiled down to this: "Christian teachings are sexist."
Now if you could stay on topic and show me a Christian teaching that is gender inclusive it would help your point.
I side with MIMS, yet I could still point out Christian teaching that supports women. Why can't you?
Unless I am mistaken, the topic here could be boiled down to this: "Christian teachings are sexist."
Now if you could stay on topic and show me a Christian teaching that is gender inclusive it would help your point.
I side with MIMS, yet I could still point out Christian teaching that supports women. Why can't you?
atwoods book, the handmaids tale is a pretty good description of what would happen to women in a fundamentalist christian state. not pretty. watch the
movie the magdelene sisters. it is about, almost literally, state and church sanctioned slavery of women in ireland in these convents called magdelene
houses/convents. these were real. in the movie, a girl was raped by a cousin at a cousins wedding. she tells her mom and aunt. they send HER off to
hise the family shame. one girl, an orphan, was sent to one just because she was flirting with boys on the other side of the fence. granted, these
girls were not real in life, but a conglomerate of what happened. the last one of these convents was closed in the 90's! the poster here has a good
point.
Mr Bender,
The topic of the OP could be boiled down to "Christian teachings are sexist." your kidding again... correct???
From the OP on the first page of this thread.
Note the use of the word...societys. Did I mistranslate...misquote..misdirect?? Reshuffle the cards when no one was looking??
Did I misdirect by attempting to stick or lock everyone back in time..a time warp technique??
I dont see the oppression the OP claims is going on. It is quite simple...people who have such a huge market share ,by society/social structure, directed to them cannot possibly be oppressed. One need not be rocket material to see this for what it is.
Jehovahs Witnesses is not all of society/societys.
You do also understand that the Bible is authoritative in nature..correct???
There is an authority structure there.
In otherwords the structure and focus of the Bible is not about being gender inclusive...you do understand this correct??
I am curious as to how people can be so Enlightened and miss out on this concept and yet attempt to substitute their beliefs of Gender Inclusive or whatever the next Enlightened program is coming down the pipeline.
Mr Bender...If you indeed have a background in the Jehovahs Witnesses then you know the focus of the bible is not first and formost about being gender inclusive....give me the name of the god who is the gender inclusive god?? I know it is not the God of the Bible. What is the name of the gender inclusive god?? By name please??
Also, I certainly can give a verse about the Bible supporting women. Two places to be precise...the woman caught in adultery in the New Testament and Sarah..wife of Abraham in throwing out the handmaiden and her son...Hagar and Ishmael..in the Olde Testament. There are more places than this but it will suffice for now.
Try this again please,
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 20-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
The topic of the OP could be boiled down to "Christian teachings are sexist." your kidding again... correct???
From the OP on the first page of this thread.
What isn't talked about at length is the oppression of women in Christian societies.
Note the use of the word...societys. Did I mistranslate...misquote..misdirect?? Reshuffle the cards when no one was looking??
Did I misdirect by attempting to stick or lock everyone back in time..a time warp technique??
I dont see the oppression the OP claims is going on. It is quite simple...people who have such a huge market share ,by society/social structure, directed to them cannot possibly be oppressed. One need not be rocket material to see this for what it is.
Jehovahs Witnesses is not all of society/societys.
You do also understand that the Bible is authoritative in nature..correct???
There is an authority structure there.
In otherwords the structure and focus of the Bible is not about being gender inclusive...you do understand this correct??
I am curious as to how people can be so Enlightened and miss out on this concept and yet attempt to substitute their beliefs of Gender Inclusive or whatever the next Enlightened program is coming down the pipeline.
Mr Bender...If you indeed have a background in the Jehovahs Witnesses then you know the focus of the bible is not first and formost about being gender inclusive....give me the name of the god who is the gender inclusive god?? I know it is not the God of the Bible. What is the name of the gender inclusive god?? By name please??
Also, I certainly can give a verse about the Bible supporting women. Two places to be precise...the woman caught in adultery in the New Testament and Sarah..wife of Abraham in throwing out the handmaiden and her son...Hagar and Ishmael..in the Olde Testament. There are more places than this but it will suffice for now.
Try this again please,
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 20-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
All right, then I'll go with that and talk about society.
Going with the last census bureau info that I could find
Census Data
the proportion of women in the labor force was 60.2 - men 73.8.
Now these women who work should have the right to make financial decisions about how their money is spent. You seem to basically be upset that women are offered more stuff to buy or make more financial decisions that they are entitled to make. I won't argue about more material goods being marketed to them because I can't find any data on it.
However, I can find data on the number of single mothers in this country. Do I need to post the data showing that there are more single moms than there are single dads? Talk about taking a risk and taking responsibility, single moms sure do.
On the same link posted above you can also see that women earn less money than men on average. So while they may have more items marketed to them, they have less money to spend.
The same link also shows how women have almost reached educational parity with men - in other words, they haven't in the past.
The same link shows that women are more likely to suffer poverty.
The US has the highest rape statistics among countries who keep statistics:
CEASE
So perhaps they make some financial decisions, many of which they are entitled to - but they tend to be poorer, less educated, and more likely to be raped.
I am not saying that men have it made, we don't.
Patriarchy is damaging and oppressive to everyone.
If one calls this a Christian nation, if one sees that Christianity is patriarchal, and if one knows that the US is patriarchal, then it only makes sense that a Christian, patriarchal nation, we have standards which are oppressive.
Matriarchy would be no better. Any imbalance of power is detrimental to both sides involved. However, the OP did concentrate on women.
In conclusion, women are oppressed in this Christian nation.
Going with the last census bureau info that I could find
Census Data
the proportion of women in the labor force was 60.2 - men 73.8.
Now these women who work should have the right to make financial decisions about how their money is spent. You seem to basically be upset that women are offered more stuff to buy or make more financial decisions that they are entitled to make. I won't argue about more material goods being marketed to them because I can't find any data on it.
However, I can find data on the number of single mothers in this country. Do I need to post the data showing that there are more single moms than there are single dads? Talk about taking a risk and taking responsibility, single moms sure do.
On the same link posted above you can also see that women earn less money than men on average. So while they may have more items marketed to them, they have less money to spend.
The same link also shows how women have almost reached educational parity with men - in other words, they haven't in the past.
The same link shows that women are more likely to suffer poverty.
The US has the highest rape statistics among countries who keep statistics:
CEASE
So perhaps they make some financial decisions, many of which they are entitled to - but they tend to be poorer, less educated, and more likely to be raped.
I am not saying that men have it made, we don't.
Patriarchy is damaging and oppressive to everyone.
If one calls this a Christian nation, if one sees that Christianity is patriarchal, and if one knows that the US is patriarchal, then it only makes sense that a Christian, patriarchal nation, we have standards which are oppressive.
Matriarchy would be no better. Any imbalance of power is detrimental to both sides involved. However, the OP did concentrate on women.
In conclusion, women are oppressed in this Christian nation.
Women have been oppressed in Christianity because the teachings of the Old Testament are Jewish. The New Testament does not have the same teachings as
the old one.
The new testament does not make women lesser then men, but they are equal. Some gospels never made it to the official canon and for some reason were left out.
Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
John 1:12: All people, men and women, have the opportunity to become children of God - presumably without regard to gender, race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc.
There are mistranslations in the bible because some words that are used in the old language is universal. It can mean different meanings when put into different sentences. The sects that divide women and men is wrong because in the end we are all God's people.
Jesus Christ and his disciples often referred to the Holy Scriptures their listeners knew of. This includes the Old Testament. It contains a history of creation, books on the history of the Jews, laws, prophetic messages, Apocrypha, etc. Jesus and the disciples explained that their work was not intended to nullify the contents of the Old Testament, but that they had not mainly come to interpret the Scriptures either. Life in direct contact with God and Christ is at stake. (See also "Basics of ethical values" and the main text of "ways-of-christ.net".) These results with new viewpoints, as compared with the Old Testament.
Source
The new testament does not make women lesser then men, but they are equal. Some gospels never made it to the official canon and for some reason were left out.
Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
John 1:12: All people, men and women, have the opportunity to become children of God - presumably without regard to gender, race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc.
There are mistranslations in the bible because some words that are used in the old language is universal. It can mean different meanings when put into different sentences. The sects that divide women and men is wrong because in the end we are all God's people.
reply to post by MrBender
Well Mr Bender..I never did get from you the name of the god who writes a bible where the primary focus is gender inclusiveness?? Can you cover this for me??
Ok..lets talk about society..since we cannot seem to settle on a bible or the name of a god who is gender inclusive.
Your joking again here right. You do know that most American women have the right to make decisions about how their moneys are spent and also how thier mans moneys are spent correct??
You also by simple observation..know that the willingness of the male to work and often in jobs or tasks which involve RISK ..yet turn over the bulk of moneys earned to the welfare of his woman and kids is one of the greatest adaptations in recorded history...yes?? Hardly mentioned today in this Enlightened Social structure ..next to "victimization"..is it?? Only victimization gets full billing.
And yet at the same time ...so many women here in Western Christian Societys make decisions not only on how thier moneys earned are spent but also the moneys earned by thier men too. Did I miss something here??
Notice how you and MIMS both miss this concept totally in lieu of your political/religious/social slant or view.
I am not upset that women make more decisions about what to buy nor that they are offered more goodies..since I dont buy this stuff. I use this observation and phenomonon to illustrate that this cannot be a downtroddenned and oppressed group of people in Western Christian Soceties. Not possible!!
When women make such broad reaching decisions daily concerning about what to purchase...even with moneys for which they dont earn or take risks themselves ....It also means that it is not a Patriarical Society...but a Matriarical Society. One need not be particularly smart to walk into any store in this country and see the ratio of goods directed twords women and females verses the male. Economically ..there is no oppression going on. Not possible.
You are losing me here....Western Christian Society is responsible for this??? Also ...this is oppression by Western Christian Society?? Please elaborate on this for me??
They were somehow forced into this position of being single moms, taking risks, and responsibiltys by Western Christian Society??
What do you think happens to single moms anywhere in the world?
You are losing me here. Are there government support programs for single moms in Western Christian Society. YOu know..programs which help with responsibilitys ...ie ..risks??
Are there any for single male fathers?? You know ..to reduce the responsibility and risks to single fathers?? Id like to know..I dont know of any but could be mistaken here.
You realize that this is total nonsense dont you?? THe part about having less moneys to spend.
You realize also that if women are in fact doing the same jobs that men are doing and incurring the same risks for less moneys....they would be firing all the males and replacing them with women since women work cheaper...right??
You do also realize that with labor costs today...buisnesses would rather hire illegal aliens to do much of the work in this country yes. This means firing the Western males too as well as the females..and replacing them with illegal aliens. They work for less....and they will take serious RISKs to get a job done and earn moneys... illegal alien women as well as men.
Buisnesses know how to make a profit ...even on labor charges.
Think about this before you try this tack.
Those charts to which you refer dont always tell the whole story about conditions and are often politically derived...not derived from what actually happens out here.
Women as a whole require more expensive facilitys ...require more medical, more time off...etc etc..etc. They are also not as wont to travel as are males. Is any of this information/details in the charts you are posting?? You know Mr Bender...the census data.
About having less moneys to spend...if women on the average make less moneys than men...and the stores have about a 7 to 1 ratio of goods marketed to the women verses men..whos moneys are being spent to support these markets..at 7 to1 ratios?? Remember...women are downtrodden and oppressed in Western Christian Societys.
You want to try this tack again??
You are losing me here again. Almost educational parity?? Yet so much opprression is going on?? Even Almost Educational Parity is not changing things?? Yet we have a 7 to 1 ratio of goods and services offered to women verses men?? Something is not being made clear in this social structure.
You are losing me here again. This is the fault of Western Christian Society??
Losing me here once again...this is the fault of Western Christian Society??
Your solution to both of these problems is??? How about MIMS solution??
This is not a patriarcial society...it is a matriarchal society masquerading as a partrarchal society in order to default through unquestioned and unchallanged...for power ..for votes...for lucre.
Christianity is not patriarchal ..it is authoritative...under God.
Thanks,
Orangetom
Well Mr Bender..I never did get from you the name of the god who writes a bible where the primary focus is gender inclusiveness?? Can you cover this for me??
All right, then I'll go with that and talk about society.
Ok..lets talk about society..since we cannot seem to settle on a bible or the name of a god who is gender inclusive.
Now these women who work should have the right to make financial decisions about how their money is spent. You seem to basically be upset that women are offered more stuff to buy or make more financial decisions that they are entitled to make. I won't argue about more material goods being marketed to them because I can't find any data on it.
Your joking again here right. You do know that most American women have the right to make decisions about how their moneys are spent and also how thier mans moneys are spent correct??
You also by simple observation..know that the willingness of the male to work and often in jobs or tasks which involve RISK ..yet turn over the bulk of moneys earned to the welfare of his woman and kids is one of the greatest adaptations in recorded history...yes?? Hardly mentioned today in this Enlightened Social structure ..next to "victimization"..is it?? Only victimization gets full billing.
And yet at the same time ...so many women here in Western Christian Societys make decisions not only on how thier moneys earned are spent but also the moneys earned by thier men too. Did I miss something here??
Notice how you and MIMS both miss this concept totally in lieu of your political/religious/social slant or view.
I am not upset that women make more decisions about what to buy nor that they are offered more goodies..since I dont buy this stuff. I use this observation and phenomonon to illustrate that this cannot be a downtroddenned and oppressed group of people in Western Christian Soceties. Not possible!!
When women make such broad reaching decisions daily concerning about what to purchase...even with moneys for which they dont earn or take risks themselves ....It also means that it is not a Patriarical Society...but a Matriarical Society. One need not be particularly smart to walk into any store in this country and see the ratio of goods directed twords women and females verses the male. Economically ..there is no oppression going on. Not possible.
However, I can find data on the number of single mothers in this country. Do I need to post the data showing that there are more single moms than there are single dads? Talk about taking a risk and taking responsibility, single moms sure do.
You are losing me here....Western Christian Society is responsible for this??? Also ...this is oppression by Western Christian Society?? Please elaborate on this for me??
They were somehow forced into this position of being single moms, taking risks, and responsibiltys by Western Christian Society??
What do you think happens to single moms anywhere in the world?
You are losing me here. Are there government support programs for single moms in Western Christian Society. YOu know..programs which help with responsibilitys ...ie ..risks??
Are there any for single male fathers?? You know ..to reduce the responsibility and risks to single fathers?? Id like to know..I dont know of any but could be mistaken here.
On the same link posted above you can also see that women earn less money than men on average. So while they may have more items marketed to them, they have less money to spend.
You realize that this is total nonsense dont you?? THe part about having less moneys to spend.
You realize also that if women are in fact doing the same jobs that men are doing and incurring the same risks for less moneys....they would be firing all the males and replacing them with women since women work cheaper...right??
You do also realize that with labor costs today...buisnesses would rather hire illegal aliens to do much of the work in this country yes. This means firing the Western males too as well as the females..and replacing them with illegal aliens. They work for less....and they will take serious RISKs to get a job done and earn moneys... illegal alien women as well as men.
Buisnesses know how to make a profit ...even on labor charges.
Think about this before you try this tack.
Those charts to which you refer dont always tell the whole story about conditions and are often politically derived...not derived from what actually happens out here.
Women as a whole require more expensive facilitys ...require more medical, more time off...etc etc..etc. They are also not as wont to travel as are males. Is any of this information/details in the charts you are posting?? You know Mr Bender...the census data.
About having less moneys to spend...if women on the average make less moneys than men...and the stores have about a 7 to 1 ratio of goods marketed to the women verses men..whos moneys are being spent to support these markets..at 7 to1 ratios?? Remember...women are downtrodden and oppressed in Western Christian Societys.
You want to try this tack again??
The same link also shows how women have almost reached educational parity with men - in other words, they haven't in the past.
You are losing me here again. Almost educational parity?? Yet so much opprression is going on?? Even Almost Educational Parity is not changing things?? Yet we have a 7 to 1 ratio of goods and services offered to women verses men?? Something is not being made clear in this social structure.
The same link shows that women are more likely to suffer poverty.
You are losing me here again. This is the fault of Western Christian Society??
The US has the highest rape statistics among countries who keep statistics:
Losing me here once again...this is the fault of Western Christian Society??
Your solution to both of these problems is??? How about MIMS solution??
If one calls this a Christian nation, if one sees that Christianity is patriarchal, and if one knows that the US is patriarchal, then it only makes sense that a Christian, patriarchal nation, we have standards which are oppressive.
This is not a patriarcial society...it is a matriarchal society masquerading as a partrarchal society in order to default through unquestioned and unchallanged...for power ..for votes...for lucre.
Christianity is not patriarchal ..it is authoritative...under God.
Thanks,
Orangetom
reply to post by orangetom1999
You think that men don't have enough power? Read a newspaper.
Here are some possible headlines:
Suicide bomber kills 40
Pedophille captured
Serial killer on the loose
Student shoots classmates and then kills self
We know that all these headlines are most likely about men. We are expected to be violent, power hungry, angry.
If a woman does something like this, we have to label it as such
Female suicide bomber
Female student
etc.
Just as we have nurses, but have to apply "male" if we are talking about men.
So there are nurses and there are male nurses.
There are killers and there are female killers.
Are you really okay with that?
You talk a lot OT, but you haven't shown us any actual statistic, any links, etc. Well, I can't argue with someone who refuses to let the facts stand in the way of their obsession with risk.
I am not bothered by risk. As a single father, I know my role in society. As a human, I believe in equal rights. As a sociologist, I know the society in which I live. As a man, it is my job to stand up for those who are in no position to do it for themselves.
How many of us have had something like this happen?
You walk down a street after dark, and some woman happens to be in front of you. She notices you, clutches her purse tighter to her body and walks a little faster to stay away from you. Maybe she crosses the street or just keeps looking over her shoulder because there is a "strange man" walking behind her.
I'm not a big guy, I don't think I look intimidating, yet I have seen women react as if I posed a threat.
I never feel threatened just because some other guy is around. Women do and they know about risk, for some of them it's just getting home in the evening.
Now try that above scenario but switch sexes. (A man fears for his safety because a strange woman is coming down the street. It doesn't wash.) No, I don't believe that Christianity is solely responsible for this problem - just as I don't believe that Christianity is the only patriarchal religion.
I do know that as long as I live in a culture where a woman sees me and feels threatened by my very presence, I have a job to do as a man: to work toward equal rights, to fight against oppression (of both men and women), to build trust, and to speak out against the damages of patriarchy, in church and on the street.
You think that men don't have enough power? Read a newspaper.
Here are some possible headlines:
Suicide bomber kills 40
Pedophille captured
Serial killer on the loose
Student shoots classmates and then kills self
We know that all these headlines are most likely about men. We are expected to be violent, power hungry, angry.
If a woman does something like this, we have to label it as such
Female suicide bomber
Female student
etc.
Just as we have nurses, but have to apply "male" if we are talking about men.
So there are nurses and there are male nurses.
There are killers and there are female killers.
Are you really okay with that?
You talk a lot OT, but you haven't shown us any actual statistic, any links, etc. Well, I can't argue with someone who refuses to let the facts stand in the way of their obsession with risk.
I am not bothered by risk. As a single father, I know my role in society. As a human, I believe in equal rights. As a sociologist, I know the society in which I live. As a man, it is my job to stand up for those who are in no position to do it for themselves.
How many of us have had something like this happen?
You walk down a street after dark, and some woman happens to be in front of you. She notices you, clutches her purse tighter to her body and walks a little faster to stay away from you. Maybe she crosses the street or just keeps looking over her shoulder because there is a "strange man" walking behind her.
I'm not a big guy, I don't think I look intimidating, yet I have seen women react as if I posed a threat.
I never feel threatened just because some other guy is around. Women do and they know about risk, for some of them it's just getting home in the evening.
Now try that above scenario but switch sexes. (A man fears for his safety because a strange woman is coming down the street. It doesn't wash.) No, I don't believe that Christianity is solely responsible for this problem - just as I don't believe that Christianity is the only patriarchal religion.
I do know that as long as I live in a culture where a woman sees me and feels threatened by my very presence, I have a job to do as a man: to work toward equal rights, to fight against oppression (of both men and women), to build trust, and to speak out against the damages of patriarchy, in church and on the street.
reply to post by MrBender
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is your last post a plea bargain??
Let me begin by asking for the third time ...the name of the god of gender inclusiveness??? I am still waiting for an answer to this question.
Very strange way or method you have of making a point about women and men.
I dont like to use statistics simply because I know statistics ...charts etc ...can be made to read many ways by skilled peoples. I simply use what I know and observe.
For example...
You post these examples of male power.
I cannot believe you post this stuff as an intelligent debate point. Talk about stereotyping..talk about being programmed...stamped out like a xerox machine copy of whatever drivel is being spoonfed to us this month as intelligent social drivel.
What you are posting here in the above quoted examples are of male powerlessness...not male power. What you are posting are examples of confusion....give me the name of the author of confusion...the god of confusion. Do I need statistics and charts to make this clear?? And while you are at it....it is the same god as the god of gender inclusiveness.
If you are wont to use this poor type of tack once again..I must wonder or ask myself ..into what dicipline were you educated.
Sorry to be so abrupt Mr Bender...but like MIMS you seem to get so much backwards...and then are wont to use charts and statistics to prove your points. It simply does not wash with people who know better.
Watch how this works...for those of us who can think outside of the standard educational,default programming..ie..brainwashing.
You keep throwing these scenerios out here which have been going on sinice before the dawn of recorded history. You would think that someone out here would have solved the problem by now...especially with such highly intelligent peoples at the helm.
Walking down the road in fear...your kidding right??
You do know that statistically ...most violence in this country and in the world is against men...yes? Men against men..not against women. You do know this correct??
Are you as an educated person..a diciplined person who believes in equality...arguing for the point of approving violence against men but not against women??
I dont have to read charts and statistics to know what I state here is a true statement...I only have to look at a weeks worth of local headlines to know that most violence is male against male..not male against female.
What does this trend in thinkng, this tack, tell me about the social value of males in this world. What does this tell me about who is in fact oppressed....who is expendable and disposable?? See how easy it is once you get your head out of charts and statistics. None of this line of thinking is to be found in the charts and statistics unless one can see around the corners..like backwards through the mirror.
However..conversesly..what I do note is that the women in Western Christiain Society are becoming more and more violent. Translation of that is that they are catching up in violence equality...ie..powerlessness. Once again I dont have to read statistics on this..just read the local section of the newspaper. Perhapsed this is the path to equality..violence.
Most violence is not men on women..it is men against men. Try another tack here please. Your tack here is very sexist by the omission of this simple knowlege.
Neither am I a large person. I do not however..feel the social obligation to take risks for another ...male or female..gratis..or at my expense in time, moneys , and labors.
I am a machinist/nuclear fueler by trade..installing fuel cells in reactors. I know what risks I take in life for my moneys...both on and off the job.
I have however taken several women to the gun club to which I belong and taught them how to shoot. It is up to them as to whether they want a gun or not for protection..ie..equalization. I do not advocate violence. Self defense yes..violence no..not against females nor males.
I dont spend alot of my valuable time and moneys concerning myself with what women fear. That is their responsibility and obligation...not mine. I am not a ox...for the purpose of pulling a wagon loaded with stuff..while a bunch of women...in "Options" choose to put more stuff in the wagon for me to pull for them. ....gratis. This to me is oppression. I also dont accept this wagon pulling for other men. Both of these groups need to be thoughtful as to what it takes to pull the wagon for themselves.
I have told many a woman ..I am not intrested in the burden of their insecuritys, fears,...inabilitys...especially at my expense/risk.
Trust to me is fine. Defaulting through..especially on social ignorance ...or religious entitlement strategys is not. Entitlement strategys ....particularly of an Occult nature...hidden ..concealed from view are what I try to spot in thinking ....particularly in our politicians. In politics ...entitlement is a sure way to get votes for the overly emotional ..particularly on the public purse. I am not the public purse ..for women or men.
I can spot this standard default thinking in both Yours and MIMS posts. I am often wont to put Light on it. Statistics and charts are not Light.
And once again...this is not a patriarichal society...it is a Matriarichal society masquerading as a Patriarichal society.
Did I ask you to give me the name of the god of gender inclusiveness..who is also the god of confusion??
Gotta make haste now...lots to do today.
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 20-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is your last post a plea bargain??
Let me begin by asking for the third time ...the name of the god of gender inclusiveness??? I am still waiting for an answer to this question.
Very strange way or method you have of making a point about women and men.
I dont like to use statistics simply because I know statistics ...charts etc ...can be made to read many ways by skilled peoples. I simply use what I know and observe.
For example...
You post these examples of male power.
Here are some possible headlines:
Suicide bomber kills 40
Pedophille captured
Serial killer on the loose
Student shoots classmates and then kills self
I cannot believe you post this stuff as an intelligent debate point. Talk about stereotyping..talk about being programmed...stamped out like a xerox machine copy of whatever drivel is being spoonfed to us this month as intelligent social drivel.
What you are posting here in the above quoted examples are of male powerlessness...not male power. What you are posting are examples of confusion....give me the name of the author of confusion...the god of confusion. Do I need statistics and charts to make this clear?? And while you are at it....it is the same god as the god of gender inclusiveness.
If you are wont to use this poor type of tack once again..I must wonder or ask myself ..into what dicipline were you educated.
Sorry to be so abrupt Mr Bender...but like MIMS you seem to get so much backwards...and then are wont to use charts and statistics to prove your points. It simply does not wash with people who know better.
Watch how this works...for those of us who can think outside of the standard educational,default programming..ie..brainwashing.
You keep throwing these scenerios out here which have been going on sinice before the dawn of recorded history. You would think that someone out here would have solved the problem by now...especially with such highly intelligent peoples at the helm.
Walking down the road in fear...your kidding right??
You do know that statistically ...most violence in this country and in the world is against men...yes? Men against men..not against women. You do know this correct??
Are you as an educated person..a diciplined person who believes in equality...arguing for the point of approving violence against men but not against women??
I dont have to read charts and statistics to know what I state here is a true statement...I only have to look at a weeks worth of local headlines to know that most violence is male against male..not male against female.
What does this trend in thinkng, this tack, tell me about the social value of males in this world. What does this tell me about who is in fact oppressed....who is expendable and disposable?? See how easy it is once you get your head out of charts and statistics. None of this line of thinking is to be found in the charts and statistics unless one can see around the corners..like backwards through the mirror.
However..conversesly..what I do note is that the women in Western Christiain Society are becoming more and more violent. Translation of that is that they are catching up in violence equality...ie..powerlessness. Once again I dont have to read statistics on this..just read the local section of the newspaper. Perhapsed this is the path to equality..violence.
Most violence is not men on women..it is men against men. Try another tack here please. Your tack here is very sexist by the omission of this simple knowlege.
Neither am I a large person. I do not however..feel the social obligation to take risks for another ...male or female..gratis..or at my expense in time, moneys , and labors.
I am a machinist/nuclear fueler by trade..installing fuel cells in reactors. I know what risks I take in life for my moneys...both on and off the job.
I have however taken several women to the gun club to which I belong and taught them how to shoot. It is up to them as to whether they want a gun or not for protection..ie..equalization. I do not advocate violence. Self defense yes..violence no..not against females nor males.
I dont spend alot of my valuable time and moneys concerning myself with what women fear. That is their responsibility and obligation...not mine. I am not a ox...for the purpose of pulling a wagon loaded with stuff..while a bunch of women...in "Options" choose to put more stuff in the wagon for me to pull for them. ....gratis. This to me is oppression. I also dont accept this wagon pulling for other men. Both of these groups need to be thoughtful as to what it takes to pull the wagon for themselves.
I have told many a woman ..I am not intrested in the burden of their insecuritys, fears,...inabilitys...especially at my expense/risk.
Trust to me is fine. Defaulting through..especially on social ignorance ...or religious entitlement strategys is not. Entitlement strategys ....particularly of an Occult nature...hidden ..concealed from view are what I try to spot in thinking ....particularly in our politicians. In politics ...entitlement is a sure way to get votes for the overly emotional ..particularly on the public purse. I am not the public purse ..for women or men.
I can spot this standard default thinking in both Yours and MIMS posts. I am often wont to put Light on it. Statistics and charts are not Light.
And once again...this is not a patriarichal society...it is a Matriarichal society masquerading as a Patriarichal society.
Did I ask you to give me the name of the god of gender inclusiveness..who is also the god of confusion??
Gotta make haste now...lots to do today.
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 20-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
Oh wow .. just reading in on this thread.. It is indisputable in my view that women are opressed globally within religious structures full stop.. It
seems to me the men who felt socially impotent and their own need to try to contain women (and their obviously terrifying creative power in owning a
womb), have projected their own feelings of fear and inadequacy into the female gender in the religious 'teachings' all over the shop... it seems
clear to me that women are far too powerful and therefore have eternally been undermined and contained by these insecure and fearful men (not God )
with the handing down over the centuries of very stubborn memes.. (ideologies .. ) and like a sturdy gene these destructive memes which authorise the
disepowerment of women are rife.. and continue to inform the treatment of women in all religions and society it seems.. I am a woman and I think if
women were not so creative by design (as are men truly and equally), smaller-feeling men would not need to claim the creation of the universe for
example and all the 'teachings' or man-made rules that went with claiming that particular creative crown so to speak......
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