The Religious Conspiracy Against Women

Ever since the war started against the Taliban, the oppression of women in Islamic culture has become more and more apparent, with women not being able to do...well, almost anything in nations like Saudi Arabia and varying degrees of oppression elsewhere

What isn't talked about at length is the oppression of women in Christian societies. It is far more discreet and a product of the subcultures of the nations as opposed to laws that are heavily enforced, but it's still there.

In the Catholic church women are seen as spiritually inferior, being unable to hold positions of power.

In many Protestant churches women aren't allowed to teach men. This means that they aren't allowed to preach in the services, teach their own male children about religion, or hold any sort of authority over men

Also, in both Catholic and Protestant households, women are highly subservient to men to the point where they aren't allowed to make any sort of decisions, this, however, varies depending on how extreme and is far from universal in all Catholic and Protestant households.

So, while the oppression of women in Islamic society is now talked about at length, why don't we take the same tone with Christian oppression of women?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
So, while the oppression of women in Islamic society is now talked about at length, why don't we take the same tone with Christian oppression of women?

I'm fairly certain that the likelihood of women being considered less than equal in Christian households is effectively a statistical anomaly. I would tend to believe that the the rate of women being treated as if they were less important than men in Christian households would be similar to the same rates in German -American households, Brunette households and People Over Five-Eight households.

I also believe that you are equating 'different' with 'unequal'.

Eric

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Unfortunatly this happens a lot esp in the denominations that you have mentioned in your post. Im pretty sure that this has come from Pauls letters to the Corinthians, Ephesians etc. I dont know any verses in here off the top of my head but if you have a read there is a lot in there about woman that has been taken the wrong way by the church (or parts of the church) - in particular there are parts about how woman should not speak in church, they should be silent etc, and how their heads should be covered while praying.
The thing that a lot of people dont understand is that these books were originaly written to these churches as letters of instruction and some of which was ment specificaly for these churches; possibly because of events that had occoured. The instructions that were given to these churches would then be to stop what ever happened with in that church as a result of this we need to be careful that we dont mix up the advice given to these churches for the general running with the advice given for specific events.

I dont know what your churches are like but woman in my church are treated equaly with the men..... positions in the churh should be governed by the qualities of the person and the skills they have to use. Not by gender.

If Ive missed something or gotten something wrong please tell... the last thing I want is to be telling people the wrong thing lol.

Ill try get some verses later, but for now I have to sleep.

-fm

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


MIMS Very good point ,very well put my friend.
Subjugation of women in Abrahamic faiths is,if not compulsory,then at least to be expected.
Dr Christopher Hitchens dedicates a whole chapter to it in his quite refreshing book 'god is not great' -it's quite a good read if only for a well balanced,informed opinion.
With regard to the religious,sociopathic misogynists of Saudi Arabia then its interesting to note that women get forcefully locked up during menstruation;get forty lashes if they don't hang out the washing in accordance with the religious police's specific instruction and are not even allowed to drive a car unchaperoned (plus many other outrages).
These actions are quite indefensible and are perhaps more to do with delusional insecurity and cowardice than anything else.
Cheers Karl

There is this great "misunderstanding" that women are the lesser vessel than that of man. Wrong. Neither man or women can live without each other, period.

People, esp men of course who thinks and use "man is king/wears the pants" as an excuse should go do some research or study. Where it does say in the Scripture, example "“Likewise, you husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered” (I Pet. 3:7), it does not mean women are a "lower" form than us. The phrase “the weaker vessel” Wives are physically weaker, and generally smaller than their husbands. Husbands must understand this. But this does not mean that women are mentally or spiritually weaker than men, well even physically

If a man needs to bring a point to his wife’s attention, he must always be extremely gentle and kind in the way he presents it to her. He should strive to inspire and encourage his wife to do better. Remember, (Colossians 3:19) instructed husbands to “be not bitter against” their wives. No one wants to be talked down to, demeaned, put down or made the brunt of jokes. He must leave his wife her dignity, understanding she is as important before God as he is. The harsh, bitter, verbally abusive husband, who belittles his wife, will answer to God for having taken his authority too far. No husband doing this loves his wife. So vice versa.

When one stumbles we do better in getting up if we have someone there to give each other a hand.

Yeah, I think women across the world should rise-up about the way they are treated in muslim type countries (beatings, forced to wear berkas, HONOR KILLINGS, to name but a few things) it really pisses me off when I see president Bush kiss the asses these sheks in S. Arabia and else where. He should tell them to make women equal or we will not deal with you Mod edit -- language].

[edit on 11-6-2008 by Byrd]

reply to post by EricD


um...no, it's not a statistical anomaly. it's quite the reality. there are sects of christianity that take the bible literally, to the point where women have to cover their head and cannot talk in religious services, because that's what the bible says. they're not allowed to teach men, because that's what the bible says

it's written in the book.

reply to post by RUFFREADY


um....this thread is kind of about the discordance between how the media and society treat muslim oppression of women as opposed to christian oppression of women

so you've kind of missed the point

I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, EricD, but it does sound as if you don't know much about Christianity. The Bible has many, many passages stating that women are lesser than men and should submit to their husband's wishes.

Good post, MIMS, flagged and starred.

P.S. I'm not surprised to not see any religious right-wing Christians reply to this. I think that may be why there aren't as many responses yet, because there are so many of them on this board.

so you've kind of missed the point

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Um..No I did not miss the point.

And also I think women could run the world much better , than the past and current ass-clowns have been running things.

I can't say how much I respect women for all they put up with. All the burdens they carry.

I say again, I think american leaders and other leaders due a great dis-service to women of the world when they can't stand up and say whats right. Its time to really put it to these ass-clown leaders and sheks etc...in countries that spit on women... FOLKS NEED TO speak up for women (elected leaders) if folks would even speak out as much as they do about the PRICE OF GAS maybe there would be some kind of start on this most important problem.



[edit on 7-6-2008 by RUFFREADY]

reply to post by RUFFREADY


and yet you're ignoring the problem at home. there is religious oppression of women in your backyard, why are you making a bigger fuss about what your neighbor is doing?

we need to be able to have the moral highground in these arguments before we can start addressing it elsewhere.

Some of it in America is disguised in other activities.

For example, how many nasty and cruel jokes were there about Hillary Clinton... jokes that weren't made about the men in the race? The last time a woman ran for president, the uproar about this was very apparent all over society.

Think of the double standards that exist -- it's okay to show two women kissing or naked women. It's NOT okay to show two men kissing or naked men (point of fact, guys... a lot of women like seeing two men kissing just as a lot of men like seeing two women kissing (and likewise there are many women for whom seeing two women kiss is a REAL turn-off)).

I can think of other examples. The Mormon church was quite restrictive (women had to wear dresses AND blouses with sleeves at one time. No sleeveless items, and shorts were forbidden.) Within my own lifetime, women were not permitted to have bank accounts without a man cosigning for her, had a very hard time getting bank loans, had trouble buying cars (I had a salesman refuse to sell me a car and insisted I bring my husband in), couldn't rent U-hauls on certain days... and on and on and on. Divorced women were considered to be just a slight step above prostitutes, so when my husband married me (a divorcee), it was a HUGE scandal in his family.

Biblical laws against women (which seem to be skipped over because nobody likes the long and boring begats and all in Leviticus and Numbers and Deuteronomy and so forth) were pretty harsh. For instance, if she was trying to break up a fight between her husband and another man and if she defended her man by grabbing the other guy by his genitals, she had her hand cut off (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

The daughter of a priest who loses her virginity will be turned to death (Leviticus 21:9)

Thankfully there are many, many wonderful men who are willing to accept women as their equals. I'm quite happy with mine!

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I will tell you the reason why the Religous text oppress Women.

--- First have any one ever heard of a myth or fairy tale about a planet full of women that despise men? use them for reproductive purposes and then kill them?

-------

What I told you that was not completly false.

I know Satan changed the Bible, so lets say you agree that it is a possibility.
___

Short Story... Real Short Verson...

There was a planet like this, it was no fairy tale. This planet was destroyed due to the acts that these women were doing. They were evil and used mean for there good and then toutured and rid them when they were done.

The Spirits of these women have been reincarnated on this planet. Satan knew this.
He likes destruction and hate. He knew that some of these women would remember and start movements. You have seen them.

Rockefeller also was evil and knew this, he started the women and birth control movement to control population. He knew that the reincarnated women from this planet would have a natural liking to this idea. You know that movement.

Where do you think the planet of women would have came from? One of the reincarnated souls that had a memory?

Real short story...

So monotheistic religions (not only them by the way) gave women a lower status. But it has less to do with religion and more to do with man being leading figures/compilers or even writers of those religions.
In Greek democracy - without Islam ,Christianity or Judaism women still could not vote and had fewer rights. The same attitude in vast majority of centers of human civilization. Man were physically stronger and more aggressive thus we made the rules and kept them.
You think that it is wrong to apply gentle pressure on religious institutions (which are more conservative by their nature) to redesign "man above women" approach into "men and women" one?

reply to post by uknow_me72


Wow!!!

When does that movie come out?

Or are you still writing the script?

reply to post by etshrtslr


No movie but I have a book for you to read if you want a chance to know the Truth.

Don't limit life. If you do you limit your self. We all know this is a prison planet.

Are they amazon women from the moon? lol

Actually your story sounds a lot like a movie that was already made. Bascially, the whole earth was a nuclear wasteland, and there was one fertile male left, and the women living underground were after him. He also had a talking dog.

You know, if it wasn't for this one point, i'd probably be in favour of converting to christianity.

It's a shame that this mentality is inbred in our culture.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
So monotheistic religions (not only them by the way) gave women a lower status. But it has less to do with religion and more to do with man being leading figures/compilers or even writers of those religions.

I do agree with this.

In Greek democracy - without Islam ,Christianity or Judaism women still could not vote and had fewer rights.

Likewise Rome. There was more equality (or so we believe, though we don't have much evidence) of men and women being more equal in Northern Europe.

But you're right... it's a real mixed bag. In the most extreme cases, there's a "men's language" and "women's language" and they live in separate areas of the same village. One example would be the ancient Hawaiians, who had a series of taboos that included diet and living arrangements. While women there were relatively free compared to other places, the foods they were given were not as healthy as the foods that the men could eat.

Ah, I could rattle on about that one for awhile.

You think that it is wrong to apply gentle pressure on religious institutions (which are more conservative by their nature) to redesign "man above women" approach into "men and women" one?

Actually, just ensuring a good education for all and equal job opportunities for both sexes is effective. There was a time (some 25 years ago) when my male coworkers threatened to quit because a woman was made assistant director of the department. I remember some pretty rude comments being made... but she was appointed and the ones who were so snarky decided that they were better off keeping their jobs. Once she had been in her position for a few years, the animosity died for the most part.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


LOL LOL LOL LOL...Madnessinmysoul...you still beating this dead horse to death???

I think you are talking about the Western Christian heavily patriarcial society which supresses women to death.

You know Madnessinmysoul..earlier this month of June and several times in the month of May I went into the Orange Place..Home Depot and got to witness for myself the downtrodden brow beaten women of America. These browbeaten downtrodden women were giving their men directions to pick up this heavy load of landscaping timbers, patio blocks, mulch...etc etc...and the men were actually doing it without complaining...total compliance. Then these patriarcial men were following their women around with the flat bed or shopping cart and taking more instructions from their women. And you know what Madnessinmysoul...when it came time to check out at the cash register...these men were taking more instruction in a patriarchial manner and paying for all this stuff...under thier womans instructions. Did I miss something here about how downtrodden women are in this Western Christain social structure. Did I miss something about how Abusive this structure is ..economically??

I cant speak for where the rest of the people out here live but here on the east coast about half or more of the drivers out here are women...and of those half ...care to guess how browbeaten, downtrodden, and socially backwards they have it while driving, walking around and talking on thier cell phones??

Care to guess how many women out here are posting on computers purchased by thier men and at great risk to the men on their jobs/occupations. Conversely, Madnessinmysoul, how many men are posting on comuters purchased by thier women? Care to take a guess??

Lets take this further Madnessinmysoul...

If you know about how secondclass citizens are downtrodden and browbeaten...into submission..in economically affluent Western Christian social structures...than you also know what sex is the dominant determiner of what kind of vehicles are purchased at the new and used car lot...correct?? Any new or used car salesperson can clear it up for you as to how downtrodden and browbeaten the women in Western Christian economies actually are. One would have to be publically educated in nonsense not to understand it. Women in this country are the number one determner of what kinds of vehicles are purchased..not the men. The men do however make most of the payments on them and pay for maintaining them on one method or another.
Doesnt sound to me like men really make all that many decisions in the Western Christian nations Madnessinmsoul.

Watch how uninformed and presumptious this statement of yours is Madnessinmysoul...

Also, in both Catholic and Protestant households, women are highly subservient to men to the point where they aren't allowed to make any sort of decisions, this, however, varies depending on how extreme and is far from universal in all Catholic and Protestant households.

This is like..super dumb dude. Take a deep breath, get a good breath of fresh air and look at any department store or any shopping mall around you. How about grocery stores.

I will continue with this tack since I have posted this several times before on both ATS and BTS forums. The floorspace dedicated to merchandize in most department stores is about 7 to 1 female verses male. This represents alot of purchasing power...a tremendous block of purchasing power...this also by default reprersents alot of decision making.
I simply cannot understand what caliber of nonsense you are spouting off and thinking no one else out here can catch it or think it though for what it actually is. I see you so often playing this veiled "Victim Card" with such boldness ..yet it is obviously so bogus once one sees what is around them in Western Christian social structures.

Women in the west ..by default ...have such tremendous economic and decision making power. Yet you in your veiled entitlement strategys ...are wont to paint them as victims and downtrodden...browbeaten. What nonsense Madnessinmysoul.

I can only conclude that you have gone to public schools and majored in Emoting and never outgrown it. IT is a lifestyle to you . You seem so bold with this type of nonsense you seem to think that it plays through by entitlement and no one out here will catch it, see it , or debate it for what it actually is.
This Western world was not built by Emoting ..it was built by thinking and alot of hard work...ie...RISK by our forefathers.
You throw in the RISK and thinking which must accompany it..and you leave most of the people by the wayside. RISK is going to seperate the women from the girls and men from the boys ...immediately.

I will also submit to you Madnessinmysoul...that in Western nations before about the year 1519 AD western men and women lived as poorly as any other people in the world...even poorer than some. Up to in including this time AD 1519...the status economically anywhere you went in the world a few people had a little ..the priesthoods , and royalty...and the rest had almost nothing....yes these rest took most of the risks for what the few had. This economic system is known as Feudalism.
It was some 200 years after AD1519..that some observers began to write and see that there was a difference in the standard of living ..economic results among some Western Peoples and not among others.

I will also submit to you that if you want to make a difference in nations like Saudi Arabia...you move there and keep up the good fight. THese are soverign nations and how they run thier buisness is thier buisness..not mine....nor yours for that matter.

I also submit to you that before you attempt such a powder puff fluff ...emotional train wreck of a OP on such a topic...you think through that there are people out here who can think beyond thier emotions and who know what real RISK is to earn their moneys/livelyhoods. Emote pieces and fluff..do not get it for them.

The willingness of the Male in Western Christian social structures to take RISKS for the moneys he earns and turn it over to his woman and children for decision making...is one of the greatest social adaptations recorded in history...yet you are wont to dismiss it in posts like yours as not worthy of consideration. You treat it as if he is making second class citizens out of the rest of womanhood. What nonsense.

In case you didnt get it I will do this again...the willingness of the Male in Western Christian social structures to Take RISKS for the moneys he earns and take second class status...behind her decision making..is one of the greatest adaptations of all times. I dont see the Victimization going on here that you describe. If this were so ..our economy could not support the 7 ti 1 ratio in goods and services you so obviously see out here. Particularly in big ticket items.

This is not a Patriarical Social structure. It is a Matriarchal Social structure concealing /hiding itself as a Patriarical Social Structure in order to play through by such nonsense as you post undebated and unchallanged.

Only institutionalized ignorance and entitlement strategys can make one posts such nonsense thinking that no one out here will catch it or post against such drivel.

Thanks to all for thier posts,
Orangetom,




[edit on 14-6-2008 by orangetom1999]