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For those opposed to the death penalty, explain why it shouldn't be used in this case

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posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 02:15 PM
reply to post by Earthscum

I think you completely misunderstood my post. I called him 'horrible'. I was taking the general mood of the thread and summarizing how most of you seem to feel about this man. That is not how I feel. He is not a horrible person for what he did. Next time read the 'quotes'.

I am not religious at all actually, I was trying to appeal to the larger religious audience who seem to be completely missing the boat here.

A terrible event happened. That is not a judgement of a person, but their actions which is completely different than calling them a bad person.

This woman suffered horribly due to this man's actions. Punishing him will not help her out at all. She may feel better temporarily, like justice has been served because he was lethally injected, (or whatever the death penalty is for that state if there is one) but soon after she will feel empty.

She will realize he has a family too, and no matter how terrible of a person she thinks he is, someone still loves him.

Show some compassion for your fellow human beings, even the ones you think are so much lower than you.

Why don't you try figuring out why this man could do this to another person? He obviously has emotional issues and did not realize his connection to others.

While I am no psychologist, he seems to have a personality disorder.

The dissocial personality disorder is described by the World Health Organization by the following criteria:

  • Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
  • Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations
  • Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
  • Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
  • Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
  • Marked proneness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
  • Persistent irritability.

He could also have post traumatic stress disorder.

Something in his brain did not tell him this was a 'wrong' action to take, or he was able to ignore it.

Look at the picture from the first page. That is not a stare of someone who thinks they did wrong. He probably thought it was OK.

Should we lock him up, torture him, or execute him? Putting him in an institution and finding out what went wrong is probably a much better idea and perhaps some psychologists will gain a little bit more incite into how we humans work.

What made him do what he did?
What was his motivation?
Why did he not stop when the woman cried out in pain?

There was a recent case where a mentally disabled woman was tortured by two women somewhere down south, but the outrage there didn't seem to be quite as high. Sure there were some people who called for his execution, but now that its a perfectly capable woman somehow its worse.

[edit on 6/7/2008 by biggie smalls]

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 02:18 PM
reply to post by Jo Jo

Sorry i missed this as i was reading through. Several people on death row have been foud to be innocent on appeal. That is why there is an appeals process, if one innocent person dies by accident and 100 murderers die also, are you willing to accept that one person as ok? If you are and you support the death penalty, then you are equally responsible for the death of that innocent person. What if it was a member of your family falsly accused, imprisoned on death row? Would you want appeals then?

The sad fact is that the costs of keeping someone on death row with all the appeals are costing far more than if you just locked someone up for the entirety of their life. If this were done there would be less appeals as most of these appeaks come from well meaning people who don't agree with the death penalty.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 02:22 PM

Originally posted by biggie smalls

You have no right to say who should and should not live. That is not your place.

This man deserves to live as much as the next,

I disagree, as a society we deserve to be protected from people such as this, and he gave up his right to live in any society. Locking them up is in no way a solution as people in this thread have pointed out.

It's a burden on the tax payer, it's likely that he'll just fit in and there is no deterrent in that, he may even corrupt others into believing that the sorts of crimes he committed are in some way a badge of honour.

But by the same token, obviously someone such as this monster has no reason to live, so the death penalty is really not an effective way to deter the next rampaging creep hell bent on inflicting heinous crimes on innocent people.

Organ harvesting, that's an option. Or other medical experiments we seem all too willing to accept be inflicted onto other 'lesser' creatures. Put him in a cage and test new drugs on him.

Personally, I would have no hesitation in removing all but 1 finger from each hand, leave the thumbs, remove 1 leg and dump the barbaric swine on an enclosed and secure deserted island with some seed and let them fend for themselves or perish.

What he did to that poor girl - "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?, twaddle! - he has given up his rights to be offered any leniency for his crimes, and the words of a dead man who died without fighting for his life over 2000 years ago are meaningless to her and her family.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 02:52 PM

Originally posted by biggie smalls
He is not a horrible person for what he did.

Thats exactly what he is.

It doesnt matter if someone loves him or not.
Someone loved Hitler too, lots of people, but he was also a horrible person.

I'm not saying that he cant be reformed or later even benefit humanity, anything is possible. But right now, and throughout his life, he has been and is a horrible person.

Mr. Williams, who was homeless at the time of his arrest about a week later at the scene of a burglary in Queens, has a lengthy police record dating to his childhood, the authorities have said.

He was charged in a murder as a juvenile, though the outcome of that case is sealed, a law enforcement official said, and he spent eight years in prison for an attempted-murder conviction in 1996.

So death penalty?
maybe, I wouldnt lose any sleep over it if he was killed.

but yeah, hes a horrible person.
in fact, he is everything that defines a horrible person.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 02:54 PM
reply to post by 3vilscript

I think that is an excellent idea! Speaking from someone who's had a family member beaten to death, I'd much rather the murderer/animal who did it be used for experimentation. Make him work (experimentation) for his cage/cell and food, so he's not a burden to someone else.

I'm not against the death penalty per se, but after thinking about it, the death penalty really only hurts the criminal's family members. It's too easy of an out for the murderer.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by virraszto]

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:06 PM
reply to post by biggie smalls

"Why don't you try figuring out why this man could do this to another person? He obviously has emotional issues and did not realize his connection to others."

This is what most criminals count on. Being able to hide behind so-called "emotional issues". Where's the accountibility? What's happended to accepting responsibility and the consequences of one's actions?

I worked in the criminal division of a county courthouse for 7 years and I could count on one hand the number of times I saw a convicted felon show true remorse for the crimes they had committed. I'm for the death penalty when the crime shows "malice aforethought" and this case definitely fits that criteria. This was not a crime of passion and there's a big difference between the two.

And for those who say let him rot in prison and that will be better than the death penalty; I disagree. They suffer plenty while on death row during the usual 8 years of appeals. Eight years of knowing that eventually your going to have a needle stuck in your arm to end your life, to me, is equivalent to sitting in prison for the rest of your life.

I've heard victims in my own courtroom pray for the day that their perpetrator would be put to death. It gave them a large measure of comfort knowing that the criminal would never be turned out into the streets again and having to fear for their lives again.

It does sound like the death penalty is too good for him but, he deserves it. One less criminal to worry about and, if we used the death penalty more, it would go a long way towards solving prison overcrowding.

I guess I should add that I was a deputy court clerk working for a district court judge. And I never once had any qualms about signing my name to a death penalty sentence the few times I did. In my opinion, a lethal injection is too humane for him.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:09 PM
reply to post by slackerwire

Death penalty is too good for that kind of people.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:29 PM
reply to post by slackerwire

dude thats absolutely awful.. and I hope this guy gets raped and sodomized repeadetly in prison... thats AWFUL man.. I say let the punishment INCLUDE.. an hour alone with this freak for the Father of this poor girl.. closed room.. no cameras.. anything goes.. THEN send this idiot off to prison packin.. he wants to see strong emmotion? I betcha the father would do worse... I have a daughter and they'd have to do something.. I can't imagine NOT trying to kill the mofo that did that to my daughter....

awful just awful... but thanks for the post anyways! this seriously is a front runner for legitimate reason for use of the death penalty for crimes such as this.. I mean murder is bad enough.. its lucky this poor girl got away..

FRY THE BASTARD... sincerely, |V|aelman

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:36 PM
reply to post by bloodcircle

wow man... thats a very interesting point.. using them for testing and what not.. reap some benefit from there spread of negativity... thats a real good idea man!

I mean I understand what the one gentlemen said up there about the 1 innocent to 100 guilty.. I do... but honestly.. if that was your daugher?? you're telling me you'd still stick to that 1:100?? come on.. thats a basic primal instinct.. I dont care what anyone tells me.. people like THIS that are SPECIFICALLY found to be guilty... DNA evidence.. picking them out of a lineup... and for BONUS look at the guys rap sheet? in this instance.. buddy deserves as punishment what he dished out to that poor girl.. I think that would be a better deterant than the standard death devices... but my point is.. to make sure 100% that the guy is guilty..

what the one dude said up there is absolutely right though... imagine a family member being wrongfully accused and being put to death... but also imagine having your kid turtured like that.. then say gets off on appeal or sits in jail for the rest of his life.. im PRETTY sure most ppl would want to see the monster dead that did that to there kid
in my opinion anyways of course...

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:48 PM
I'm neither for nor against the death penalty. It's not an issue extremely important to me. I guess I'm like the OP in that I believe there are certain cases where I couldn't care less if they executed the human rots that committed heinous crimes. And in some cases, like this one, I'd support it. The convicted is a twisted, empty shell of a human being with a vile mind and black soul...I saw one person argue against the death penalty by asking, "will killing him undo his crimes or bring the victim back?" Well, no. But one thing it does do--and the importance may be lost on you if you never had to experience it firsthand--is provide a sense of closure and resolution for the friends and family of the victims.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by Threadfall]

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:55 PM
reply to post by biggie smalls

I apologize... that wasn't meant to attack directly at you, but more at the hypocrisy involved in such a statement.

I do totally agree with you... cases like this should be studied, but in reality all a human has to do is try putting themselves into the mindset of this guy, or others. As horrible as it may seem, it appears that there is a small percentage of people that do this (or admit to it).

What was done IS horrible. Everyone has the ABILITY to do things like this, and what it comes down to is something like this:
I see some of these younger girls that are still in school and well under 18 y/o, and I think they are smoking hot. I can do 1 of 2 things... 1) See if I can attemt to 'get some', woo them, act on impulse, or 2) think about it and decide that the moral consequences aren't worth it (as well as the law) and just put it out of my mind. Someone who does this doesn't have a moral regard for another's life. This guy went with the impulse and even heightened it because there were no immediate consequences that he could observe. This guy was, at least during the time, totally introverted. The only thing that would've been worse is if there were more than one assailant. This would indicate a bit less introvert action and would make the situation even more sickening because the 2 would be feeding each other's fantasies.

Kinda see where I'm coming from? It's sad, but I actually understand this guy's state of mind. Death penalty won't deter any of these people. That doesn't hit home until they are getting fit to the chair or table. I really do think that public humiliation can be a deterrent. It has worked, historically speaking. I really do miss the stocks. One month in the stocks before going to the hole. Is it a form of torture? Yes. Anything short of death sentence or letting him off is torture... sorry, but that is the reality. Even rehab is a form of torture, as helpful as it is.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:55 PM
reply to post by ToolFanMael

EXACTLY. Primal instinct. Gut reaction. Visceral revenge.

These are not the values of a civilized system of Justice.

Here's a question. Who's making money off of the death penalty?

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 04:19 PM

Originally posted by biggie smalls
This man deserves to live as much as the next, even if he is a 'horrible' person. He is still a human, an imperfect one at that just like the rest of us, and made some serious mistakes.

This savage does not deserve to live just as much as the next person, and he didn't make "some serious mistakes", he committed acts that are sub-human, almost animalistic.

Diseased humans (and I use the word human very loosely here) need to be disposed of quickly, and before they can harm others. Unfortunately, this individual has been allowed to hurt many people in the past, and will doubtless be a continued threat to the jail personnel who will be required to guard him until the good Lord you so fervently use in his defence sees fit to remove the stain of his existence from the planet.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 05:04 PM

Originally posted by biggie smalls

Originally posted by slackerwire
Naturally they won't erase what happened, but some people simply aren't fit to live. This creature is one of them.

Who are you to judge another? Are you a saint? Have you ascended into heaven? Are you god?

No. You sin as well, just like the rest of us. That does not mean you torture other people, but its still wrong.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I don't see many people follow that these days.

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

You have no right to say who should and should not live. That is not your place.

This man deserves to live as much as the next, even if he is a 'horrible' person. He is still a human, an imperfect one at that just like the rest of us, and made some serious mistakes.

That could very well be the biggest load of BS I have ever read on this site.

Lets leave the religious garbage out of this.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 05:09 PM
Because death isn't a punishment, it's a release. You kill them they get away with it. There's no heaven or hell, but there is an afterlife where everyone goes, there is no punishment or reward there. The only punishment is what we get here.
Dying is easy, it's living that's hell.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 05:22 PM
The real problem is the existence of a norm.

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 05:35 PM
I think someone mentioned organ harvesting... I don't know if I'd want to walk around with this dudes' liver or spleen, would you?
But I think that is definitely done in China, they even have mobile harvesting vans that visit the prisons.

Hmm, I don't know where to exactly stand. This was a heinous crime. But even the death penalty wouldn't give this guy the same amount of suffering that the woman went through - so how is it really a good form of punishment?

She died a horrible gruesome death, while he'd die a nice clean clinical death. If anything, that would make me more outraged. It's a primal instinct to do the tooth for a tooth thing, but I'd prefer to see him rot in jail - death would only lessen the time he has to dwell on what he did.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by mattguy404]

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 06:00 PM

posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 06:15 PM
reply to post by mattguy404

Then lets torture him.


posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 06:15 PM
So this man tortured and raped a girl. What gives him the right to do such horrible acts upon his own species. Am I right?

But what also gives you a right to decide someone's fate?

I say let him live under severe imprisonment.

Death is the easy way out.

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