Matthew 24 verse 29

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand



great comments 5-6-2008 @ 21:40 ,

It would make it easier, for some of us to read, if you would add some paragraphs :-)

reply to post by MurderCityDevil

because they think they are worthy of being saved through the rapture

Actually, the verse says:
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

"Accounted worthy" is not the same as "worthy".

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

"The Rapture" Idea is only about 150 years old and was introduced by a man named Charles Taze,

Incorrect, it is mentioned (possibly) as early as 374 AD:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

There is a man who brought this so-called smoking gun of ancient belief in pre-trib rapture.
His claims are disputed by others.
Do not buy into this until you make your own look into the counter-claims.

reply to post by jmdewey60


According to the critics, they don't deny he SAID it, they deny what he MEANT by it. The authenticity of the statement isn't being challenged, only the interpretation.

That being said, it doesn't mean Pseudo-Ephraem is correct, but it is only to dispute (and refute) the "it was never mentioned prior to the 1800's" crowd.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Here is link to the text of the sermon (toward the bottom of the page) on a CRITIC'S page:

A sermon by Pseudo-Ephraem

The critics don't deny what was said, only what Pseudo-Ephraem meant.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


It could be that the writer is talking about the state of confusion that the enemy experiences, right before they are destroyed.
It is not necessarily talking about the tribulation, itself.

reply to post by jmdewey60

It is not necessarily talking about the tribulation, itself.

Yes, he IS talking about the tribulation:

For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

Interestingly, it seems the 'critics' don't deny what Pseudo-Ephraem said, they are critics of Thomas Ice's further exposition on Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon. And no wonder! They are correct!

They are attacking an "always IMMINENT pre-trib rapture" stance (or belief), and they are correct. The rapture was not always imminent.

This is EASILY noted and proved by 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Here, two things must happen first (before any rapture):
1. A falling away (apostasy)
2. The man of sin be revealed (the Anti-Christ is revealed)

It appears that Pseudo-Ephraem even noted this, and he is correct.

However, after looking through Psuedo-Ephraem's sermon a little closer, he isn't (completely) correct about a couple of minor things. I suppose this could be because there was no NATIONAL State of Israel at the time and that he was trying to explain eschatology "without" a State of Israel...and you can't do that without making some very serious errors.

In fact, most historic teaching on eschatology is errant in it's EXPLANATION for they were always trying to make their "end-time" explanation 'fit'...without Israel existing...and it just led to some very wrong conclusions.

In other words: "No State of Israel?= No end times, YET". And any attempt to teach eschatology (or a IMMINENT end-time scenario), in the absence of a STATE (or Nation) of Israel is futile.

To further clarify, let me use an analogy?

Let's pretend the Bible predicted the "end-time" comes right after the 57th State of the United States of America secedes from the USA.

Just for fun, let's pretend the Bible said that.

If it DID, and I came up to you and said, "the end will be here really soon! Maybe today!", you would LAUGH at my statement, for there isn't a 57th State of the USA...much less one to SECEDE from the USA. And you would be right.

IF I THEN went to 'explain' that "State" could mean spiritual 'state', or a 'territory' or something like that...I would be getting myself into some very serious error quite quickly, for I would be surmising that the Bible 'wasn't quite accurate' in what it had to say...and I would be adding my own interpretation (which would be wrong).

In the same way, any preaching/teaching of an IMMINENT 'end-time' (much less an IMMINENT RAPTURE) prior to the Nation of Israel becoming a nation again is full of holes.

Again, using my analogy, if in the next 3 days (or so), we add 7 more states to the USA (were pretending here), then any teaching of an IMMINENT 'end-time' becomes more clear...and if the 57th state starts making a fuss and threatens secession...well...we are now able to predict, with comfort, an IMMINENT 'end-time'.

Psuedo-Ephraem's sermon (to his peers) had only one thing left to look for: "The AntiChrist" appearing. He was in error, for there was no State of Israel for the Antichirst to make a covenant WITH.

reply to post by Shar

This is a series of videos. For the most part they are good. However this one number 4 seems to have some things backwards. They seem so serious in their teachings. What makes people miss the most important verse in 24?

The major error I see in the video is twofold, first they teach "immanency", which is easily refuted (see my above post).

Secondly, the make a MAJOR presumption that just isn't supported by Scripture: They claim 'millions' will disappear in the Rapture.

This just isn't supported in Scripture. A MORE LIKELY number is "practically unnoticeable". Jesus describes the time prior to the Rapture as "in the days of Lot" and "as in the days of Noah". Both are characterized by a VERY MINOR amount of people being saved.

Put another way:

There WEREN'T millions of people on the Ark.
There WEREN'T millions of people who escaped Sodom and Gomorrah.

I do not find it a very worthwhile exorcise to go through a point by point discussion of some questionable text.
You can believe whatever you want to about it.
I just have a problem with people going around acting like they have some sort of special knowledge.
Reminds me of Gnostics and I do not think they had anything useful to add.
Something bad happened to Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans and Jesus probably had something to say about it.
Something bad will happen to the whole world and I am sure the Bible has something to say about it.
I think Paul wanted to end a bunch of useless speculation about the end.
I do not think his main goal was to start a whole bunch of additional speculation.
I think if we are among the Saints, God will take care of us, one way or another.
Not being a pre-tribber is not going to make us be excluded from the Rapture, no matter when it happens.


[edit on 8-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

I just have a problem with people going around acting like they have some sort of special knowledge.

1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Apparently Paul had some special knowledge...

reply to post by jmdewey60

I do not find it a very worthwhile exorcise to go through a point by point discussion of some questionable text.

There is nothing 'questionable' about the text of Psuedo-Ephraem's sermon. It's real...it exists...

I'm not aware aware of any Biblical scholar that denies this. While some may argue over "what he MEANT" by it, I agree....it is debatable...over what he MEANT.

jmdewey60,

I don't expect everyone (or anyone) to dissect every little thing I say here at BTS. I'm ok with that. We both consider our time important!

I've discovered that there are witnesses to what is written. "Is someone being honest with the given text?" God, also witnesses what is said (here...there...and everywhere.)

Religious debate is NOT a game with "no stakes"...the witness of the Bible goes out to the entire world:

Romans 10:17-18
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy


This just isn't supported in Scripture. A MORE LIKELY number is "practically unnoticeable". Jesus describes the time prior to the Rapture as "in the days of Lot" and "as in the days of Noah". Both are characterized by a VERY MINOR amount of people being saved.


There WEREN'T millions of people on the Ark.
There WEREN'T millions of people who escaped Sodom and Gomorrah.

Correct, I see this as well. The Bible tells us we have to live the straight and narrow way. Not broad and wide. Obey his commandments and accept Him as God's Son.

Today, we have hundred of thousands of people who want to deny that He even existed and if He did exist He didn't preformed miracles only tricks on people.

People today have the attitude of its all about them and they can do as they please. There will be no repercussions on anything they do. They are their own gods so to speak.

To me its crazy.

I fear for most people because the Bible clearly tells us that if you don’t study and put on the whole armor of God you will not be ready! It goes on to tell us that the miracles that will be preformed in the last days are going to be so great that if it were possible those miracles would even deceive the very elect! That in itself says a lot.

Jesus gave us all the warning signs and we just ignore them!

reply to post by Shar

I fear for most people

Don't.

Just...don't.

I say this because Jesus did NOT come to save everyone, for He clearly said this. Jesus did NOT heal everyone whom He came in contact with.

No-one needs to feel RESPONSIBLE for any lack of 'saving' another.

God saves the Saints...not 'us':
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


I was talking about dissecting this text that you decided to use as proof that this philosophy existed before modern times.
OK, a text does exist, so, what does that mean.
It is disputed as to what century it was written in and there is not much dispute over the fact that it was not really written by the claimed author.
So, it is a forgery and could have been written by lunatic, and who cares what it says?
Now saying all that, I do not want to ignore you but I think we do not need to go down some road of discovery over this deal about some proof.
No one cares, anyway.
Well maybe, somebody does, but to me, this is like this distant argument that we are not a part of.
The outcome of that debate is so inconsequential.
That is the main thing that bothers me about this whole "time" business.
Kind of like arguing about what color life jackets we should wear, while our ship is sinking.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


This is for all.

1. The Bible was altered from the original scriptures.
2. Jesus was only healing people to show them that WE CAN HEAL JUST LIKE HE DID ALSO.
3. Jesus came as an example to how we should live with love, compassion and provide protection to all.
4. Jesus is Mans Savior.
5. Yeshua will return.
6. Follow Yeshua's example and not debate his teachings.

We all know the world is going to change. The time is now for you to follow our Saviors teachings instead of debating on what they mean. They are simple and you are adding politics to something that does not need it.

Yahweh the Creator love's you and Yeshua the Son love's you. They are compassionate. They are here to protect you from the evil among us. Allow them to do so and do not reject the Truth and Teachings. The world we live in was created by that evil. Do not participe in the humanistic ways and let God live through you.

Provide protection to your family and friends.
Show compassion in your everyday lives.
Love life and appriciate the gifts that you have been given.

reply to post by uknow_me72


I have to agree with what I think is the spirit of what you are saying.
I can not say I endorse every word, but the practical aspect is important.
Engagement, not with the materialness of the world, but the spirits around us that we should have some concern over.
If we only look for our own well being and are standing with our ticket in our hand waiting for our boat to leave, we may be missing opportunities around us.
Being obsessed with our own rotten skins does no good for anyone else.
I am sure that Pretribguy believes he is doing his part to warn people but I think it is evident to thinking people that a crises is coming.
We first have to be concerned with what it means to be a Saint.
Even the evil people know that judgment is coming and want to figure out a way to avoid it.
We need to face that judgment head-on and get right with God.
Part of that getting right is helping our fellow man.
Being all concerned about our futures, gains us no points in heaven.

Nothing to do with gaining points in Heaven. This is where the Bible was changed. The Bible was changed and put in a Jealous, Ruthless, Unforgiving God. They added humanistic Sins and Hell.

Satan did this. It was the only way he could curtail the Movement of the Old Testament and Jesus.

You were in heaven before you were on Earth.

We are eternal. Only one can destroy us. Your body may die but you will live on.

We are special here. We have Yahweh's and Yeshua's protection. We have their protection because we are being caught up in the worst slave society ways and have the Evil power looking over us and pulling the strings. They are leading us into the ground and to be slef destructive.

If God did not intercede with Satan we would already know a different life doomed to never knowing the Truth.

Take your gifts to heart and understand them. Realize that we have a greater purpose. We are not a Body. We are a Spirit with a body to command.

Jesus said MANY ARE CALLED BUT A FEW ARE CHOSEN.

He is calling you. What are you going to do?

reply to post by uknow_me72


The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
(or is this one of the places the Bible was changed?)
We are not in command of our bodies.
We may be spirits, but we are not perfect.
Most of our thousands of choices we make every day are made at a level below our higher self.
For us to continue on, we have to go through something like what PreTribGuy talks about.
We will have to be gathered together and protected, not just from the wrath of the Devil, but from the justice of God.
Only Jesus can do that. We have no power to do that, on our own.

[edit on 9-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


We do need to gather the people that have chosen to follow God. Most of us are in a slumber state and have been weakend by the constant calling of Satan's minions and being engulfed in his world and always have the darforces that have influenced others that look like us trying to pull us in with them to live our life with Satan.

You choose, Good or Evil.

Your actions pick your side. Once you have been taught then you can not say you did not know. If you have been taugh that Evil Deeds can leave you stranded with out protection and you choose to do them, then you choose yourside.

It is not to late or never to late to wake up and change your ways. You can get your connection with Yahweh. You can accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and still drink, do drugs, have sex as these are not Evil Ways. Drinking and Drugs are different they were created by Evil to cloud your judgement and to let the minons do work. You have to realize yourself if they are a benefit or not.
Sex is a great things and is to be enjoyed. It is the highest complement you can give to another to share that moment.

Sin's = murder and other crimes that can be considered as gruesom. Use your judgement.

To many politics have been taught in religion. It took away from the WORDS and the TRUTH.

Please read my thread..."What is Humanism" to get an idea and quick catch up on somethings.

If you want another inspired writing from the Creator itself please u2u me.