Senate committee: Bush knew Iraq statements were untrue

reply to post by Rockpuck


Hmmmm, then maybe you should consider this.

Lying to go to war which lead to the deaths of over 4,000 American soldiers and at least 80,000 or more innocent Iraqi civilians.

That's a different beast. It is also why most presidents are generally pardoned when they are in office during war times. They should not be held accountable for the deaths. However, when that war was purposefully put into motion on lies from your own mouth...You see the problem? There isn't a court on this planet that would find in favor of them.

It just has to get to that level first.

and the anwser:

108th Congress: Senate Select Intelligence Committee

110th Congress: Senate Select Intelligence Committee

Yes it is mostly the same members. The question that now remains, at least in terms of the point your trying to make nanny, is what intelligence they saw. Was it the same as the president? Was it the information complied by the intelligence agencies or was it complied by the white house. We should also look at how these members voted on authorizing the use force in Iraq.

Edit to Add:

107th Congress: Senate Select Intelligence Committee

I ad this because I am not sure if Iraq was voted on at the end of 2002 or at the beginning of 2003.

[edit on 6-6-2008 by Animal]

Originally posted by CaptGizmo
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

whoa,whoa,whoa....hold on there Rockpuck....not once or in any other thread have I ever! said I was for a one world government.Could you be any more paranoid. You are making assumptions that are not true and everyone knows what happens when you assume things! I don't think it is unreasonable that they could be brought up on war crime at the UN. It happened to the Nazi officers after WWII.Not to mention I love how you seem to speak for the UN stating they will do no such thing...as if being a mason gives you some right.

[edit on 05/16/2008 by CaptGizmo]

The UN will do no such thing because there are people in this country who would love a reason to physically dismantle that POS in New York. If the UN ever laid so much as one nasty decrepit finger on my Government, regardless of who's in office I, and those like me, will consider it a declaration of war.

Other Countries may lie down and let the UN rape them repeatedly, and the US may use the UN as a tool to stretch it's hand across the world.. but they only abide by the UN for what backs it. The UN in most cases act's as a proxy for US interest.. if the UN where to move back and demand something of the US it is not coming from those who currently control the UN but rather from another proxied source.

ANYONE who supports the UN as a legal law making body supports the UN over their own country. They are guilty of treason at the highest level, no organization, body, person or thing in the world has sovereignty over this Country. You support a One World Government, if you support the UN.

Now, whether or not you think me being a Freemason has anything what so ever to do with my politics will only highlight my other theory. My theory that those who support the UN and organizations or theories like it have their head so far up their arse they can't tell what is sovereign and what is an alien entity. I would suppose that you being a complete moron gives you some right to declare that my being a Freemason has anything to do with my judgement, naturally only highlighting your own ignorance if you knew a damn thing about my Fraternity to begin with.

That's the problem with trying to converse with people of childish mind sets.

dariousg

Lying to go to war which lead to the deaths of over 4,000 American soldiers and at least 80,000 or more innocent Iraqi civilians.

That makes it unethical, however, it does not in anyway make it illegal. Oddly enough, it may be hard to understand but military opperations are intended to kill.

However, when that war was purposefully put into motion on lies from your own mouth...You see the problem? There isn't a court on this planet that would find in favor of them.

Every war ever brought forth has been conducted on lies, mistruths, over stretches of truths and misrepresentation of truths. Never, not once in the history of Human Warfare has their been a war in which started on open and honest truths being told to it's people. Bush is like every other leader in history, war for war's sake with a clandestine meaning not intended for the peons of society.

Unethical. Yes. Illegal? No. And I suppose we can be lucky that no court in the world has sovereignty over the United States nor it's leaders.

Understand, the both of you .. that when we prosecute someone for "war-crimes" we do so for our own reasons, American reasons, not because "its the right thing to do."

reply to post by Nunny


Okay the results so far:

In 2002, the 107th Congrees, Senate Select Intelligence Committee members votes on Authorizing Force in Iraq On the Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 ) link

Democrats:
Graham (D-FL), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Nay
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea

Republicans:
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Thompson (R-TN), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea

So 4 out of 5 Democrats voted to authorize force.

Now I need to discern who knew what.

Rockpuck, I must ask, if the world community decided that based on the facts G. W. Bush lied to the people of the USA and global community on the threat posed by Saddam Hussein and committed crimes in declaring and waging war on Iraq would you oppose him being tried on war crimes?

Do you think that it has been foolish for any country to allow such trials and therefore do you see all such trials as illegitimate?

reply to post by Rockpuck

Your reasoning is quite disturbing and you calling me a MORON!!! is even more disturbing in the fact I am trying to have a civil conversation and you respond with absolute childish behavior. The UN is a world body in your way of thinking ....you are aligning yourself with the same rational that this current corrupt administration used to get us into an ILLEGAL war in the first place. Your argument is baseless. I could care less if you are a freemason.I just judge my statement on that by your posts.I would appreciate a retraction in the name calling or do I have to notify a MOD to spank you like a child.

reply to post by Animal

Rockpuck, I must ask, if the world community decided that based on the facts G. W. Bush lied to the people of the USA and global community on the threat posed by Saddam Hussein and committed crimes in declaring and waging war on Iraq would you oppose him being tried on war crimes?

Absolutely. It is our fundamental RIGHT to attack who ever we damn well please. Just as it is any other nations right to attack anyone they deem necessary. The ONLY instance where War is "Illegal" is when ANOTHER country says so .. only, that country has to have the power to DO SOMETHING about it.

If America did not exist, Saddam would not have been prevented during the first gulf war. It was not an American war, it was a UN war (many don't seem to know this) however the UN could only do so because it was an American endeavor.. there where "perks" gifted to America for their troubles. But only because of this, is this war illegal.

Israel can attack Palestine all it wants, everyone screams why.. because NO ONE can MAKE them stop.

Some crazy bleeding heart liberal might WANT to end any given war, but that does not mean it must stop.. Understand the world is nothing but a multi angle tug of war for power. Only those with sufficient power decide what is right, what is wrong. Ever notice Western Countries do no wrong? It always Eastern, Southern or ME countries doing something wrong.. because in our eyes we see OPPROTUNITY.

If someone where to try and trial our President, they don't do so because its the good thing to do. There is an agenda behind every action, a meaning behind every word and an alternative objective to every endeavour.

Do you think that it has been foolish for any country to allow such trials and therefore do you see all such trials as illegitimate?

No country has ever "allowed" trials of it's leadership or way of life. Germany did not hand over it's leaders say "err I think we did something bad.. take everyone to court and see if they are 'legal'" .. No, we destroyed them, humiliated them, installed an opposition party in power, took command of the country, divided the people like live stock between polar opposite powers and then "gave them a trial" so as to appear to the world that we where in the right.

History remembers those strong enough to write it, and it forsakes everyone else. The only justice in the world is that which is handed out by those with the power to back the justice they deliver. Fair is a foreign concept.

The world is not black and white, right and wrong, and there are many, countless sides to the stories we hear about, but we only ever get one perspective. And that's the perspective those that be feel you are adequately able to handle. We went to war with Iraq, but we didn't call it war, that hurts weak minded America's feelings. See, we like to think we do justice, we help the weak, we assist the innocent and spread this mysterious "democracy" .. what ever that is .. to all the poor suffering people in the world.

In reality the objectives where no such thing, the war was vital to American security but not because of "wmds" and mad man presidents no .. we went because we had to.. Americans are just to dim witted and insecure to wage war with out feeling proud and noble about it. Eventually, that will be our downfall.

CaptGizmo

Your reasoning is quite disturbing and you calling me a MORON!!! is even more disturbing in the fact I am trying to have a civil conversation and you respond with absolute childish behavior.

Get over it.

The UN is a world body in your way of thinking ....you are aligning yourself with the same rational that this current corrupt administration used to get us into an ILLEGAL war in the first place.

The UN is a World body whos operation is that of who ever is the strongest behind it. It is America's arm, and if it where to act against America it is someone else's. I know this is hard for you to understand in this cartoonish world of your with unicorns and fairy dust and cuddly wuddly wabbits but it's the truth. Also the war was not Illegal, if you can define the exact laws that where broken, I will stand corrected, but as far as I am aware no law has been broken, and don't give me this International Law horse # because that is the stuff of wishful dreaming of those who support the One World Government.

Your argument is baseless.

Actually it's not, and your little whimpering over there about how mean I am to you doesn't change that either. Your posts represent yours and those like your self, slow and dimwitted view of how the world works. As if living in a constant state of optimism that surely it can't be, surly the people in the world are not THAT bad.. ah, but reality says it is. A basic mind set of black and white, ignoring all shades of grade and calculating people and governments into "law breakers" "law makers" and good and bad is childish in it's own way. The International community is a state of complete Anarchy, no one structure has the authority over any other entity unless through a direct result of military or economic force. The only legal binding to the President is the Constitution, which can be modified, changed and bypassed.. everything he has done has been within the legal context of the Constitution.

I could care less if you are a freemason.

Apparently so. This must have just been an involuntary spasm of stupidity when you mentioned the fact that I am a Freemason?

I would appreciate a retraction in the name calling or do I have to notify a MOD to spank you like a child.

Oh do call I MOD, I never retract what I say on these boards. If I hurt your feelings so bad that you Foe me and then run to a Mod I can honestly say your hardly a person I would ever apologize to.

reply to post by Rockpuck

You are way out of bounds here with you remarks and yes I did foe you....um what the hell do you think it is there for ....oh your a bright one.Read through the posts here again and notice your ridiculous ranting all because of a little blurp I made about freemasonry.I did nothing here to bring this on....you are purposely resorting to lame name calling. I voiced my opinion and thats what it is....MY opinion...you on the other hand speak as if what you say is the truth and everyone else is wrong or stupid.As far as the fuzzy animal and unicorn crap comment.....that is so far from what I am all about.You know nothing about me or what I do.

It is funny how you call you and your freemasonry buddies a Fraternity...haha that about sums it up! You guys along with Bilderberg ,the skull and bones.....yea, and I am the one accused of wanting a NWO.

Again I don't care if you like to dress up in robes and practice your pagonistic rituals and incantations....again who is into unicorns?

I do believe the UN will push for charges on Bush and the rest of his cabinet for War crimes.....I don't like the fact that the President of this country has taken us to be the most untrusted nation of the world. By the way since you feel so strongly about war...why are you not in Iraq? or Afghanistan right now supporting your beloved King George "cocain snorting" Bush.



[edit on 05/16/2008 by CaptGizmo]

reply to post by CaptGizmo

It is funny how you call you and your freemasonry buddies a Fraternity...haha that about sums it up! You guys along with Bilderberg ,the skull and bones.....yea, and I am the one accused of wanting a NWO.

Actually, yes, you are the one favoring the NWO with your UN bs. As far as your childish and ignorant view of the Brotherhood I cannot assist you here, though it truly does only further highlight your intellectual shortfallings.

I do believe the UN will push for charges on Bush and the rest of his cabinet for War crimes.....

NWO? You can't be this stupid as to not see the correlation there.

Maybe you are..

I don't like the fact that the President of this country has taken us to be the most untrusted nation of the world.

Don't vote for him or those like him. Ah, that would mean.. don't vote.

That's the evil of Democracy.

why are you not in Iraq? or Afghanistan right now supporting your beloved King George "cocain snorting" Bush.

Because I have no ambition to be in the Army, I feel I am a bit more useful to myself in my own career. Interesting you feel to support the United States you must serve in the military?

I have no problems with Anti-war people. In fact, I support most of their claims, however, all this hog wash about the UN taking us out of Iraq and prosecuting our leaders or any other OWG bull# I do have a problem with.

But again, with your little rant there on Masonry, I think it's fair to assess who has and does not have the credibility to speak on worldy affairs.

Right Rock I agree the UN doesnt need to be in our business and punishing our people but Bush needs to pay and if our congress is impotent to do it then who will? Capt the UN will never do it because we are the UN who funds the UN or at least most of it. They go after our peeps they will no longer exist. Lying to get people to die in a bogus war that is only for financial gain for a select few is treason as far as I am concerned because you are turning on your country and countrymen for the sake of a dollar. My punishment would be to make him serve and go on the front lines. See what crap he got our people into. Then if he makes it out alive send him over to Liberia for a couple weeks and let him hang there. Id like to see him get out alive there.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Well my so called rant on the freemasons is based on what I have read or seen in documentaries since your group(organization) is so secretive what else would anyone have to go on.You know I actually voted for Bush the first time.I have felt betrayed by this President along with what is it now 80% of the country that thinks he has taken this country down the wrong path.You sir are now in the minority.I love my country and that is why I voice my opinion under the Constitution and I will not be swayed by the likes of you nor anyone else.So continue please your pitiful attempt at school yard behavior,
as you are showing us exactly how your little pea brain works.No I am not in the military as I am to old....however I do my part...the day after 9-11 I got the call to be part of the rescue effort at ground zero.I was there that day and stayed for months in the recovery effort.So just for your information I now have health issues from that and don't complain about it. as it was my duty as an American to help my fellow citizens in need.What have you done to help? other than give the same old excuses we have heard time and time again.



[edit on 05/16/2008 by CaptGizmo]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Animal

 

Absolutely. It is our fundamental RIGHT to attack who ever we damn well please. Just as it is any other nations right to attack anyone they deem necessary. The ONLY instance where War is "Illegal" is when ANOTHER country says so .. only, that country has to have the power to DO SOMETHING about it.

So much for the practice of Free Masonry making the man better. Your cold, harsh, and fundamentally fatalist view of the world is quit pathetic.

Your insistence that any country can do what ever it likes as it is that country's business alone highlights your repeated inability to see simple truths like the value of human life.

Flame away, I know you will, but your words hence forth mean nothing to me.

How could I care what a person who believes the destruction of so many lives is legitimate.

Bleeding heart liberal or not, I will never accept that such courses of actions should not have repercussions.

If you are so threatened by justice being handed out by a global community that is your problem. Like it or not we are all members of this community. That is not to say we should blindly hand over our sovernity but protecting our sovernity should not protect us from the repercussions of damnable actions.

According to your world view only losers can be held accountable. What a joke.

[edit on 6-6-2008 by Animal]

reply to post by mybigunit

Right Rock I agree the UN doesnt need to be in our business and punishing our people but Bush needs to pay and if our congress is impotent to do it then who will?

I quite agree! .. However, who should make them pay? The people, that is, if they so desire. Sure some people bitch about the world all day long, but it is the minority. Most people grumble about it.. I don't like it.. but im not about to take to the streets. If the people wanted justice, justice would be served. I don't think it's at that point. Yet. I think the weight of the economy bearing down on the shoulders of the Middle Class will finally, eventually, demand answers for their woes. To which new lies will be spread to instigate further complacency.

Capt the UN will never do it because we are the UN who funds the UN or at least most of it.

Exactly.. we are the UN, we are it's master. If the UN moves AGAINST the US Government it is rouge and is no longer doing our bidding, but the bidding of someone else..

Lying to get people to die in a bogus war that is only for financial gain for a select few is treason as far as I am concerned because you are turning on your country and countrymen for the sake of a dollar. My punishment would be to make him serve and go on the front lines. See what crap he got our people into. Then if he makes it out alive send him over to Liberia for a couple weeks and let him hang there. Id like to see him get out alive there.

The Libertarian in me agrees with you. The Realist in me tells me that .. that simply is not how the world works. As I said, all wars are lies. Mark my words, the economy will sink and we will wage a new war. It's only a matter of time now.

CaptGizmo

Well my so called rant on the freemasons is based on what I have read or seen in documentaries

Oh, do we have a You Tube scholar here?

80% of the country that thinks he has taken this country down the wrong path.You sir are now in the minority.

Actually I would be in the majority, seeing as you failed to see my point entirely.

So just for your information I now have health issues from that and don't complain about it.

It was common public knowledge that the Towers had large quantities of Asbestos in them. I commend your actions at Ground Zero though, I truly believe you are all heroes in your own way. I think for ground zero workers is the only time I have ever supported and would push for Government funded health and death benefits.

So much for the practice of Free Masonry making the man better. You cold, harsh, and fundamentally fatalist view of the world is quit pathetic.

Mmkay, tell me mate, how is the world? How is it the opposite of what I siad?

PLEASE list me one instance in the current or historical time when my view of the world was not accurate?

Bleeding heart liberal or not, I will never accept that such courses of actions should not have repercussions.

They do have repercussions?? ... Well ... for others it does. There is no repercussion for the World Super Power is there? Not even the combined World Powers can do anything.

Prove me wrong though.

If you are so threatened by justice being handed out by a global community that is your problem.

No international body, government, institution or entity has any right to tell my leaders what to do or how to act. As I said, such a move is a declaration of war.

I know some like your self pray for the One World Government to take over so we can all live happily ever after, but it won't happen.

Don't you see? Who ever controls the US government controls ALL international organizations?

There is a remarkable difference between how the world is.... and how you want it to be.

According to your world view only losers can be held accountable. What a joke.

I said no such thing.

History did.

reply to post by CaptGizmo


Sad thing is, CaptG.....shrub and dick have stripped away most of what the Constitution used to stand for.

Mostly, it was dick who did it....shrub is just a rube, a puppet....has many hands up his arse.

Time to take it back....the People....or, should I have written 'We, the People...'

For anyone who is well-read, you will know to what I am referring.

Firstly, though....we let the democratic system, as is in place, solve the crisis. And, it is a crisis.....two Administrations of an un-elected 'president'...but, that's water under the bridge now....time to fix, going forward.

reply to post by weedwhacker


Democrats will save the day!

un-elected 'president'

Hmm

How was he "unelected?"

You mean he didn't get the "popular" vote? .. Because you know the Popular vote in a Federal election means nothing? .. You know it's the States electing the President not the People?

reply to post by Rockpuck


Since you are going to continue your completely arrogant way of putting forth your opinions and your abuse of site rules I will take the recommendations of the thread about decorum here at ATS and set you for ignore. I will not continue with your utterly useless waste of my time here.Good luck with your idea of how the world works.You are the first person I have ever had to set to ignore.



[edit on 05/16/2008 by CaptGizmo]

[edit on 05/16/2008 by CaptGizmo]

[edit on 05/16/2008 by CaptGizmo]

reply to post by Rockpuck


I wasn't very clear. In November, 2000, it came down to electoral votes, based on a State-by-State basis. Florida was pivotal, when it came, again, to the Electoral College votes. Carry Florida, carry the 'election'.

Many, many many people, in Florida, were dis-enfranchised. Fake 'felon' lists were produced, and tens of thousands were not allowed to vote, since they were falsely accused as being 'felons'. Then, there were Counties, where people were confused, and 'voted' for Pat Buchannan by accident.

Because the ballot was confusing, etc, etc.

Ultimately, though Gore had the majority of votes NationWide on a simple count, it came down to the Electoral Count....and Florida was pivotal.

No co-incidence that shrub's brother happened to be Governor of the state of Florida, at the time???

BS...all the way!! Complete, and utter BS!! Election 2000 was stolen, period. 2004.....new story, different system.....the Diebold machines, in Ohio. Faked, votes faked, counts faked.....Ohio's Electoral votes to the wrong person.....

Can't wait to see the next move by this criminal, who seems to be called a 'president'.....a travesty, that's all it is.

reply to post by weedwhacker

I wasn't very clear. In November, 2000, it came down to electoral votes, based on a State-by-State basis. Florida was pivotal, when it came, again, to the Electoral College votes. Carry Florida, carry the 'election'

This is true, but no substantial evidence was found.. I mean to say, if there reeaaallllyyy was strong evidence that one side cheated more then the other..... I mean ... If there was evidence one side cheated I don't understand why Kerry (or Gore) would have quit. I wouldn't have.

In the end though the State can choose who ever they like. If they decided Kerry won, in theory, Florida could have voted for Bush. Political suicide, but effective.

though Gore had the majority of votes NationWide on a simple count, it came down to the Electoral Count

Because people only recomend to their states who to vote for.. the states themselves as an entity are voting. If every last person in New York and California voted for Kerry but all the other states by slight majority vote Republican, then Republican would win, even though tens of millions behind in popular vote.

It's a method to stop populated states from out-voting small states. Still ineffective though, while Florida was pivitol, sure, Oregon was not counted at all.

Everyone there wasted gas going to vote.

the Diebold machines, in Ohio

Yes.... I do hate those god forsaken machines. I refuse to vote when they are being used, which in my area is all the time now.

Can't wait to see the next move by this criminal,

I personally would bet another "terrorist" attack and war with Iran before he leaves office.

Originally posted by Animal

Furthermore, if this is the case can these crimes be brought before the Hague?

Just stumbled across this picture, enjoy!

The Bush Regime on Trial

I'm still waiting for someone to have the guts to say what the consequences would have been of turning around and bringing 160,00 troops back home, walking away from all the UN sanctions and leaving Saddam in power.

Bush had the authority as Commander in Chief to deploy the troops as intimidation, but Saddam called his bluff. I blame the chicken s**t Democrats who stayed home because they thought there wasn't any difference between left and right politics and allowed one party to dominate all branches of government for six years.
Leaders have lied about every war. We would have a much better chance of holding people accountable for incompetence, mismanagement and lack of oversight than proving they intentionally lied.