Evangelical Christians

Originally posted by nathraq
No offense Faisca, but how could a Christian not take the old testament literally? The 10 commandments are from the OT, not to mention the whole creation/evolution debate is based on Christian belief in God's creation of Adam/Eve.

That's what I meant by pick and choose.

No offense Faisca

Many Christians believe that Christ came because faith in God ahd becoem too strict (look at this opinions on the Pharisees and the letter of the law). he also stated that the two new commandements, love God and your neighbor, override the 10 commandments (or, rather, they cover them all. Loving your neighbor as yourself is really all you need to know). The picking and choosing comes from people who don't understand what Christ's message really was, and want to use his history for their own devices.

Well hamilton, you never want to read about the sants of the catholic church who were being murdered and put to death by stoning while at the same time hewas praying for those stoning them. Don't want to read that though. its truly sad that the saints get overshadowed by hypocrites in our own religion, and yes
we have had some hypocrites in or chrch including 20 some antipopes not recognized by the church.




Joseph, this (good) news is whaat jesus told us to spead, but with gentlness aand kindness, and if they reject it and leave the house and say no more. he told them to preach to the people and woever hears you hears me. There is nt one verse in scripture where Jesus tells the apostles
to force the good news on people. You will not find one passage.



There is a way to preach the good news that does not end in conflict, and this is what Jesus taught.





William, if no church presence ever existed in the USA, then im afraid to imagine where our morality would be today considering where it is now with a church presence. You see if you think like athiesm, then your living for this world only, and it don't maatter who you step on or hurt to get to the top because
nobody will judge you, you will never pay for evil, you just live for this world and die. Im afraid of people who think like this. Im afraid to imagine the whole world believing like this.



peace.

The point is TRUTH, the news that was encouraged to be spread is divisive in its nature. 'Your either with us or with the terrorists'. 'Your either with God or with the Devil'. Are you familiar with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, etc..? Don't think for a second brother that you have a monopoly on the truth.

im pretty sure there is no one truth...if there is a truth then it is one that serves our basic instinct of survival...your beliefs are just survival as a group with what does and doesnt work...life exists because it is in so many forms, being diverse insures survival this is how i think there can not be one truth

Originally posted by Joseph Knecht
The point is TRUTH, the news that was encouraged to be spread is divisive in its nature. 'Your either with us or with the terrorists'. 'Your either with God or with the Devil'. Are you familiar with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, etc..? Don't think for a second brother that you have a monopoly on the truth.

Do you then claim to know the truth? If christianity isn't truth, what is? The truth of things is exclusive, meaning whatever it is, it's by itself. There can't be more than one truth. 2 + 2 = 4 is truth. There is no room for another. So, tell me, what is it? Is it so hard to believe that everything was created by God? And is it so hard to believe that He has established how He wants His own creations (namely, us) to live? Wouldn't His commandments, laws, teachings, and desires be the truth?

I am not too familiar with them, but i know some of what happened back then was in defense and soe may not hve been, but whatever the case this is ot what our church teaches, not
one council since jesus until now has tuaght this.



The teaching of your with me or againt me.



I see it as if you believein Jesus your my brother, if you don't your my brother who I want to know who the lord is.




I don't consider people outside of my religion (enemies), only if they hate me, but I pray for them as brothers of myself and sisters and pray God will reveal himelf to him. Yes i believe Jesus is God and he came to save his people, but people who don't see this are still creations of God and will respect them and pray for them even if they spit in my face.




There is a way to keep the truth believe it and preach it, without conflict.




peace.

Do you then claim to know the truth? If christianity isn't truth, what is? The truth of things is exclusive, meaning whatever it is, it's by itself. There can't be more than one truth. 2 + 2 = 4 is truth. There is no room for another. So, tell me, what is it? Is it so hard to believe that everything was created by God? And is it so hard to believe that He has established how He wants His own creations (namely, us) to live? Wouldn't His commandments, laws, teachings, and desires be the truth?


Yes. I know the truth. The truth is that I don't know, AND I DON'T PRETEND TO.
I am constantly amazed at the infinitely many realities that are eternally present. But this is where you are misguided Simple Truth: the truth of things is not always 'exclusive'. Truths come in many forms and fashions and are relative, elusive, and dependent on much pomp and circumstance. To express that you know the 'real truth' is always going to be to the detriment of someone else's 'real truth'. It's not hard at all for me to believe in a God. I do. Though The God I believe in abhors the wrathful, all loving God that you so believe. There are many roads. So then, let x = x.

Originally posted by AF1
Truth,

Do you believe it is right then for these people to push their beliefs on the general populace?

AF...back your accusation that the christians of the US are "pushing their beliefs" ont he general populace.

I won't hold my breath waiting, ok?

Also, what about us "old-found" christians? Have you anything to say concerning us?

Originally posted by Esoterica
[

Many Christians believe that Christ came because faith in God ahd becoem too strict (look at this opinions on the Pharisees and the letter of the law).

This would be a severe mis-use of Christ's words. He did not ever imply that "faith in God" had become too strict, but that the adding on of the burdensom yoke of man-made laws by the levitical group over the years had made the LAW too strict. His words bear out that he was desparately trying to replace these un-followable laws with FAITH - strict as you can get it as a matter of fact. He stated that if you chose to attain salvation via the OT law, you must follow it TO THE LETTER...dotting every i and crossing every t. Hence the obversation by Paul that we have all fallen short of the glory of God - i.e. we're incapable of following what had been created by the levitical rulings over the centuries.

Originally posted by Joseph Knecht
Do you then claim to know the truth? If christianity isn't truth, what is? The truth of things is exclusive, meaning whatever it is, it's by itself. There can't be more than one truth. 2 + 2 = 4 is truth. There is no room for another. So, tell me, what is it? Is it so hard to believe that everything was created by God? And is it so hard to believe that He has established how He wants His own creations (namely, us) to live? Wouldn't His commandments, laws, teachings, and desires be the truth?


Yes. I know the truth. The truth is that I don't know, AND I DON'T PRETEND TO.
I am constantly amazed at the infinitely many realities that are eternally present. But this is where you are misguided Simple Truth: the truth of things is not always 'exclusive'. Truths come in many forms and fashions and are relative, elusive, and dependent on much pomp and circumstance. To express that you know the 'real truth' is always going to be to the detriment of someone else's 'real truth'. It's not hard at all for me to believe in a God. I do. Though The God I believe in abhors the wrathful, all loving God that you so believe. There are many roads. So then, let x = x.

Truth is NOT relative. Yes, different people think and do different things, but that doesn't mean it's all truth. Truth persists through whatever circumstance there is and doesn't change. Otherwise, it wouldn't be truth. Truth is not some loose concept to be tossed around. Instead of everyone having their own "truth", everyone has their own ideas or opinions, and at best, only one set actually represents the truth. This idea of multiple truths or relative truth is idiotic.
There are still a group of people out there that believe the world is flat, which I HOPE we all find ridiculous here at ATS. Anyway, they refuse to admit that it's a sphere. However, most of us know for a fact that it is indeed round. It is scientific fact. These flat-earthers can believe all they want and deny all they want, but does that change the truth?! No! As we speak, they are subject to the affects of day and night and the rotation of earth, REGARDLESS of what their "truth" is.
What your logic is saying my friend is that just because people believe in something, it's truth. Now I have enough confidence in you to believe that you know the earth is round, but going by your above post, you would say that the earth is round because most of us believe it to be true, but it's also flat, because others believe IT to be true. Obviously, they conflict. They are mutually exclusive, which is the nature of truth. Unless, you can show me what a flat globe looks like.
If you fail to understand this explanation, then you still fail to know what truth means.

Now, you believe in God, which is right on. But I got the impression that you feel that there are many ways to obey him or fulfill what he wants of us. Don't be so sure that he's so easy. He's powerful, all-knowing, loving, and just. He's perfect and so far above us it's beyond comprehension. Is it so hard to see that he has simply set just one standard that he desires for us? Do you really think that he's an anything goes, or almost anything goes God? Btw, this doesn't mean at all that he's wrathful. He loves everyone despite what they do, and is saddened anytime someone doesn't see that they need Jesus. But who goes to hell or not, he has left up to us. And so if someone chooses against him, he can't do anything about it, although he has compassion.

Originally posted by Valhall .back your accusation that the christians of the US are "pushing their beliefs" ont he general populace.

Preventing same-sex marriage based on religious doctrine. Attempting to display the 10 Commandments on public property. Knocking on my door with tracts and pamphlets in-hand. "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance. Should I continue?

Originally posted by Truth You see if you think like athiesm, then your living for this world only, and it don't maatter who you step on or hurt to get to the top because nobody will judge you, you will never pay for evil, you just live for this world and die. Im afraid of people who think like this. Im afraid to imagine the whole world believing like this.

You have a misguided perception of me, and especially atheism. Your belief that those "without faith" are inherently evil is biased and incorrect. Morality should not be based on dogma, but what is "right". Throughout the ages, we've seen how dogma-based morality has only caused problems for those not of your exact-same-dogma. Oh... and yes, I am judged... by myself and my peers, every day.

Originally posted by Valhall


AF...back your accusation that the christians of the US are "pushing their beliefs" ont he general populace.

I won't hold my breath waiting, ok?

Also, what about us "old-found" christians? Have you anything to say concerning us?

We now have activist judges, mayors, governors, etc., who go against the will of the great majority of citizens in this nation (forget that it is against the law in most of the nation!) and declare that it is the "right" of homosexual men and women to "marry."

Christians need to come up with some ammunition against this grievous sin, and soon. As it stands now, our heads are, as it were, spinning with all the degrading developments that have taken place in the past few weeks.

Where will we get this ammunition to fight against "spiritual wickedness in high places"? From the Word of God - the only place that, in the end, will matter.

www2.mountaineagle.com...

President Bush's decision to replace two members of his bioethics panel with three appointees whose beliefs are closer to his own has sparked a new round of criticism on how the administration handles science.
"Elizabeth Blackburn is one of the most respected senior scientists who have looked carefully at this issue, and it would seem to be prudent to replace her with somebody who has that level of skill and experience in science," said Laurie Zoloth, director of bioethics at the center for genetic medicine at Northwestern University in Chicago, Illinois, and board member of the International Society for Stem Cell Research. "And William May is one of America's most thoughtful scholars of religion and Christian ethics. What's notable is that both of them have been strong supporters of stem-cell research."

The Council on Bioethics is charged with advising the president on moral and ethical issues surrounding advances in biomedical science and technology. The panel has authored four reports thus far, but has had difficulty finding a consensus opinion, in part due to dissent from Blackburn and May.

www.wired.com...

In a series of recent decisions, the National Park Service has approved the display of religious symbols and Bible verses, as well as the sale of creationist books giving a biblical explanation for the Grand Canyon and other natural wonders.
These moves all emanate from top Park Service political appointees over the objections of park superintendents, agency lawyers and scientists. A number of fundamentalist Christian and socially conservative groups are claiming credit for these actions and touting their new direct and personal access to Bush Administration officials

www.peer.org...

What exactly is an old found christian anyway?

AF1,

First of all, I�m not real darned sure that surfing until you find some backwater preacher in Jasper, Alabama who is calling his flock to arms against the degeneration of the US moral fabric is evidence of anything of majority. It is just evidence of why I chose not to hold my breath.

The really neat thing is, he has every right to say what he has said. Freedom of speech. Every christian has the right to speak about their faith as well. Just because a christian is vocal of their beliefs, does not mean they are trying to �push it down your throat� or whatever the phrase was you used.

Proselytizing is not equivalent to forcing beliefs. The christian (to a person) has the great commission placed on their shoulders. And that responsibilities involves witnessing. NOT conversion, but witnessing. I think you are confusing the two.

My use of �old found christians� was in reference to a post in which the �blame� was pointed at the �new found christians��If you did not make that comment, then I am not speaking to you. If you did, maybe you can explain what is meant by that.

SO,

Now YOU are confusing things. That there are controversial issues in which the MAJORITY of the people are voting against what you want, doesn�t equate to a certain religious belief forcing anything. It equates to the MAJORITY having some common view or some commonly held moral code�if by chance that is in line with a certain religious belief, so be it. That�s the democratic process for you. Until the numbers of Judeo/Christian U.S. voters is diminished either through scare-tactics, abolishment of their rights, or some other form of persecution to the point their numbers do not constitute a majority, you�re just going to have to live with what they want�now, aren�t you?

That a obnoxious vocal minority is trying to force its anti-religious lack of moral code on the greater percent of the US population is what ought to be concerning everybody.

Originally posted by Valhall Now YOU are confusing things. That there are controversial issues in which the MAJORITY of the people are voting against what you want, doesn�t equate to a certain religious belief forcing anything. It equates to the MAJORITY having some common view or some commonly held moral code�

What happened to the "commonly held moral code" that this nation was founded upon the belief of freedom and liberty? How is your freedom and/or liberty harmed by two people of the same sex entering a committed union? "Morality" is not, and should not, be based on the dogma of religious teachings alone (as the theists seem to think). Morality is bigger than that, it should be a symbol of selflessness, not a sword of righteousness. I propose that it is inherently immoral to impose my version of morality on someone else.

quote:
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Originally posted by Truth
You see if you think like athiesm, then your living for this world only, and it don't maatter who you step on or hurt to get to the top because
nobody will judge you, you will never pay for evil, you just live for this world and die. Im afraid of people who think like this. Im afraid to imagine the whole world believing like this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is complete rubbish. I do not follow any religion and don't really give much thought to God, in fact I doubt he exists. However, I know the difference between right and wrong in my own eyes and that does not include stepping on others, the opposite in fact. I find it funny that you say that because if you look a the people who do have no morals or ethics they all claim to be staunch christians e.g. Bush, Blair, Corporate leaders e.t.c.

You are wrong that atheists do not pay for evil. They pay for themselves, they're the ones that have to live with it. If I do something wrong I don't need the stigmata of some "God" to make me feel guilty about, I'm the one that'll make myself pay because I'll never forgive myself for it. You don't need God to have respect for life, especially others.

That a obnoxious vocal minority is trying to force its anti-religious lack of moral code on the greater percent of the US population is what ought to be concerning everybody.

Contrary to popular belief, just because I don't have a god doesn't mean I don't have a conscience.

I feel that it is wrong to cheat, lie, steal, or harm another person. I know this though because I can see the world around me, and not because god told me.

I try to be a good person, and I do it without the fear of punishment by a diety or anticipation of reward.

Then again I'm just a heathen, what do I know.

AF1,

That's not the point. You have claimed that christians are trying to force their beliefs on you. No, we are not. We have ours, and as part of our beliefs we have an obligation to share when given the chance.

I accept you as you are...EXACTLY as you are.

But SO's examples of our "forcing" were examples of the a-moral minority's agenda that is hitting a wall right now because there are more "moral" people in the nation than a-moral people...tough luck. I'm sure someday they'll take us over, but not yet.

I insinuate NOTHING against non-believers...you can bank on that in Denver.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Valhall

I propose that it is inherently immoral to impose my version of morality on someone else.

No...it isn't...not when you are the majority.

Mr. Simple Truth:
I have to disagree with you. What you are saying is predicated on YOUR own belief that their is an absolute truth. Your belief may be based on anything concievable. That still makes it YOUR belief! This is exactly what is so devisive about christianity. YOU DO NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY ON THE TRUTH. You may have faith, logic, reason, etc.. But the 'truth' is, in all actuality: you have absolutley no idea whether you are right, wrong, or somewhere in-between. Is this so hard for you to deal with?

I said I believe in a God. You immediantly turn that into the fallacies of my belief pertaining to God. Who the hell are you?

I will continue this debate for as long as necessary, but please understand the inherent difficulties in dealing with an absolutist.