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Clinton Supporters Voting for McCain

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posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by TheOracle
 


It happens all the time. Just ask Mitt Romney. I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of the Republican party was much more aligned with Romney's stated platform than McCain's. The problem? They simply didn't like or trust the guy.

I think the problem here is that people want to explain this rationally, yet people are inherently irrational. Emotion, intuition, instinct, good old gut feeling...whatever you want to call it....it plays an enormous role in how people select their candidates (as well as a variety of other things in life). You can't quantify it, and that's why this attempt to turn this sentiment amongst Hillary's supporters into something akin to a math equation simply doesn't work. There certainly can be more factors than just stated issues at play, and those factors are equally valid.

In this particular case, they're telling you what this intangible factor is: trust. They simply have more overall trust in John McCain to do the right thing for this country than they do Barack Obama. In my personal opinion, trust is probably THE most important factor for any candidate, regardless of party platform.

I'd also argue another point: many of Hillary's supporters are much more moderate than those of Barack Obama's. Consider for a moment that most of Hillary's supporters were blue-collar traditionalists in 'flyover' country; Reagan Democrats who tend to be much more conservative than their counterparts in the northeast and on the west coast. As such, their views on the issues aren't terribly conflicted by voting for McCain.




posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by Kamikaze X
You should just be honest and say that you won't vote for a Black dude at least you'd make more sense.



That's what I'm getting out of most of this too, I just haven't heard definitive comments yet, so I'm just waiting for the posters to dig their own hole.

I don't think everyone is on that page, but I'm sure there are many who are. Then, there's the whole population of Clinton voters who are just catty and are voting for McCain out of spite. Here's a perfect example:

Aasif Mandvi at the Clinton camp from the Daily Show
www.thedailyshow.com...



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by Kamikaze X
You should just be honest and say that you won't vote for a Black dude ..

That's what I'm getting out of most of this too,


EEEEK .. more of that 'you must be anti-black if you don't vote for Obama' bunk


Again - In Hillary's own words why her supporters are not backing Obama.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by Kamikaze X
You should just be honest and say that you won't vote for a Black dude ..

That's what I'm getting out of most of this too,


EEEEK .. more of that 'you must be anti-black if you don't vote for Obama' bunk



If you read the rest of my post......


I don't think everyone is on that page, but I'm sure there are many who are. Then, there's the whole population of Clinton voters who are just catty and are voting for McCain out of spite.


Please take what I said as what I said FF.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Please take what I said as what I said FF.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings Ras.

The reason why the Hillary supporters are going to McCain are very clear in the video I posted. 'Black dudes' has nothing to do with it.

Experience. Credibility. Ready on day one.

Edwards and Biden agreed with Hillary. It's in the video.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Experience.


Hillary has been a politician for 8 years. Obama for 12. Where's the big experience advantage?



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


No feelings hurt, just misquoted.

And there is no denying that a percentage of people who would pull their vote from Hillary and point it towards McCain do so based on their fear of a black man in office.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by TheOracle
I think it's sad people vote to keep somebody out. You should vote for the views closer to yours, not out of spite. Or not vote at all. You don't make sense at all because Obama is much closer to Hillary that McCain, unless for you it's a color or spite issue.
When Hillary endorses Obama you can't say you are a Hillary supporter, can you?

----------------------------------------------
I know it sounds counter intuitive but I voted for Kerry just because I couldn't stand another 4 years of Bush. If I had stayed home, then that would have been a vote for Bush.
It is important to vote and maybe even more so to keep a criminal out of office, even though most of us failed obviously.
-------
Coven, there just isn't a chance that Hillary will be on the ticket. But, McCain is just that bad that I would still vote for Obama but I will just puke because Hillary.... I tell ya what, if you look on MSNBC there is a good video of an interview between Joe S. and Dr. Brzezinski. that explains it so much better why a Obama/Clinton ticket would be horrible.
--------------
Like I opined before to my young OP friend, be vigilant on what these two candidates say and keep in mind that "experience" is probably one of the least important but most over played argument. I have to give you something better than that don't I?
Look at the campaigns. Who "ran" the best one? Most organized? Who started with the least and made it the most? Do you think that the ability to run a well organized and successful campaign isn't indicitive of leadership ability? Hillary had everything to start with, she had the machine, she blew it. Look how Bush ran any of his business's, he sucked, and he sucked as President too, didn't he? Obama just launched the first salvo at the Republicans when he said that he and the DNC will not be taking any PAC or lobbyist money. How is the McCain camp going to deal with that "change in Washington" move?
Choose the most capable, intelligent, and organized candidate rather than the elementary thinking....who got the most experience. BUT, if you are voting on more than just "experience" than don't use that as the selling argument. Vote on policies, vote because you don't want dude in office, or for whatever reason you have, but using experience as a test, is a big and naive mistake.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by Kamikaze X
You should just be honest and say that you won't vote for a Black dude ..

That's what I'm getting out of most of this too,


EEEEK .. more of that 'you must be anti-black if you don't vote for Obama' bunk


Again - In Hillary's own words why her supporters are not backing Obama.



Nobody is saying that if you don't vote for Obama you're automatically racist. All I'm saying is if you're a Hillary Clinton supporter actually voting on the issues why would you vote for McCain (her polar opposite) when she loses instead of Obama who shares the same views as her? That's the question we've been asking the whole time and the OP has refused to give a straight answer first it's "It's my right, I don't need a reason" and then it's "Trust and Experience" but the OP doesn't know anything McCain stands for. Ontop of that he/she says that they want to try everything in their power to make sure Obama doesn't get elected which starts to show more of the OP's character and motivation behind this thread. One could only assume that's it's because of race because he sure hasn't give us any other reason as to why it could be. If he would be a man and say he wouldn't vote for a Black man it would be a lot more respectful than to try to duck and dodge every question so that the truth doesn't show.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by Kamikaze X
 


Great post!
That says it so well.

This argument seems to indicate the same old "team spirit" issue that I complain about in politics. The OP apparently was rooting for Hillary to win. When she didn't win, there's a feeling that the "other team" (Obama) won and Hillary is the "loser". The indignation felt by being on the losing team leads one to say, "Well! We'll show them! C'mon you guys! Let's vote for McCain so we can make Obama the loser"!


If the OP agreed with Clinton's politics and votes for McCain, it's clear that the desired end result is not to get good policies into the presidency, but to make someone a loser... It's childish.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Kamikaze X
 


Great post!
That says it so well.

This argument seems to indicate the same old "team spirit" issue that I complain about in politics. The OP apparently was rooting for Hillary to win. When she didn't win, there's a feeling that the "other team" (Obama) won and Hillary is the "loser". The indignation felt by being on the losing team leads one to say, "Well! We'll show them! C'mon you guys! Let's vote for McCain so we can make Obama the loser"!


If the OP agreed with Clinton's politics and votes for McCain, it's clear that the desired end result is not to get good policies into the presidency, but to make someone a loser... It's childish.


Exactly. If you are willing to vote for someone whose policies have had a negative impact on this country and the world just to get back ato Obama for beating your candidate then you must take the election process as a joke and you deserve whatever happens as a result of your actions. A great majority of Americans are so comfortable with their nice houses and white picket fences that they don't understand the realities of the world. They don't even care about what someone 30 miles away is going through so why should they care about how our foreign policy is received by the rest of the world? I think the only thing that'll wake these people up are the sounds of bombs and troops hitting our shores and at that point it'll be too late. These people need to be humbled and shown that it's not all about them.

[edit on 6/6/08 by Kamikaze X]



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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The fact that he is of mixed race has no bearing on my decision at all. He could be purple for all I care. That is a problem I have with some Obama supporters. Why does my decision not to vote for him have to be about his race? That is a sad delusion that Obama supporters use because they can't accept that anyone would vote for another candidate. The whole race issue with Obama is old and I honestly had hoped it would get played out in this discussion.

I was a supporter of Bill Clinton. I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton. Just as you are a supporter of Obama, and that is your choice. They are two separate candidates, no matter how much the Obama camp wants to try and point out their similarities. They do not agree on all the issues, as you've pointed out with some of your examples, and it is beyond me why you would expect me to vote for a candidate I do not like.

If the tables were turned, would you automatically vote for Clinton? I would hope that whether you did or didn't that either way you would vote for whomever you felt was the best candidate!

Again, I will ask the question no one has answered yet. What has Obama done thus far in his career to make "change"? Why has he not taken the opportunity before now to make the "change" he promises to make now?

Thank you for your input, Kamikaze!


Originally posted by Kamikaze X

Originally posted by lucien
My answer is no. I will not support Obama as President even if Hillary is VP. My reason is simple. I do not trust Obama. I have never supported him and that won't change no matter who his VP is.

I agree with the above poster. Clinton will never take a VP position beside Obama!


Originally posted by coven
No offense, but I am not asking for non-answers, I'm looking for a specific yes or no(and why). I am asking who you will vote for if hillary were to accept the VP position (which no one can speculate one way or the other until she speaks this saturday...)

Can you please answer the question. Bill would still be in 1600 pennsylvania ave. just instead of first husband he would be... vice-first husband??? (
)

Seriously... On the off chance she took the VP... Would you vote Obama?


Coven


I find it hillarious that you don't trust Obama but your first pick supported:

- NAFTA

- The Iraq War

- The Selling of Nuclear Secrets to China through Magnesquelch

...and that's the short list. You should just be honest and say that you won't vote for a Black dude at least you'd make more sense.

[edit on 6/6/08 by Kamikaze X]

[edit on 6/6/08 by Kamikaze X]


[edit on 6/6/2008 by lucien]



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 04:33 PM
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You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. I believe you are wrong about people being "so comfortable with their nice houses and white picket fences that they don't understand the realities of the world". The fact of the matter is that most Americans are in crisis. They are loosing homes, automobiles, and jobs right now. I know that I am far from comfortable at the moment!

This election is far from a joke to me! As I've stated before, this is the most important election thus far in my lifetime. I toyed with the idea of not voting at all if Clinton was not on the ballot. Then I realized that I want my vote to count. I am not thrilled about either choice. It comes down to the lesser of two evils at this point. In my opinion, that is McCain.


Originally posted by Kamikaze X

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Kamikaze X
 


Great post!
That says it so well.

This argument seems to indicate the same old "team spirit" issue that I complain about in politics. The OP apparently was rooting for Hillary to win. When she didn't win, there's a feeling that the "other team" (Obama) won and Hillary is the "loser". The indignation felt by being on the losing team leads one to say, "Well! We'll show them! C'mon you guys! Let's vote for McCain so we can make Obama the loser"!


If the OP agreed with Clinton's politics and votes for McCain, it's clear that the desired end result is not to get good policies into the presidency, but to make someone a loser... It's childish.


Exactly. If you are willing to vote for someone whose policies have had a negative impact on this country and the world just to get back ato Obama for beating your candidate then you must take the election process as a joke and you deserve whatever happens as a result of your actions. A great majority of Americans are so comfortable with their nice houses and white picket fences that they don't understand the realities of the world. They don't even care about what someone 30 miles away is going through so why should they care about how our foreign policy is received by the rest of the world? I think the only thing that'll wake these people up are the sounds of bombs and troops hitting our shores and at that point it'll be too late. These people need to be humbled and shown that it's not all about them.

[edit on 6/6/08 by Kamikaze X]


[edit on 6/6/2008 by lucien]



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 04:47 PM
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It amazes me how my original post somehow has been translated into a race issue. I understand there there are those people who will choose not to vote for Obama because he is black. There are also black people who will vote for him because he is black. The color of his skin is irrelevant to me personally. No matter what Obama supporters reply to on this thread, race is not my issue and since Obama supporters continually bring race up, then it must be their issue.

Who I vote for and why I vote for them is my choice. I started this forum for Clinton supporters. I have no idea why Obama supporters are even posting here. I can only imagine it is to stir up drama between Clinton supporters, considering that this seems to be a theme on many boards.

Clinton supporters don't really care what Obama supporters think. We don't support Obama. Your attempts to provoke are childish. Be respectful please. You've made your choice. This is ours.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by Kamikaze X
 


Obviously Obama and Hillary are opposites as well...if they were one in the same, then why did Obama win? Was it his race?

No, its beacuse more people believed what obama had to say (unless you do want to admit its because he's black)

People who sided with hillary now side with mcCain because he's not Obama. They despise Obama more than McCain, and for a democrat to say that about a democrat, should tell you something about the quaility of Barack Obama. (in case you cant figure that one out: his quality is slightly below chinese dog food)



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by lucien
The fact that he is of mixed race has no bearing on my decision at all. He could be purple for all I care. That is a problem I have with some Obama supporters. Why does my decision not to vote for him have to be about his race? That is a sad delusion that Obama supporters use because they can't accept that anyone would vote for another candidate. The whole race issue with Obama is old and I honestly had hoped it would get played out in this discussion.


The first line of one of my posts is "Nobody is saying that if you don't vote for Obama you're automatically racist." The only reason anyone is coming to that conclusion is because so far you haven't provided any real reason as to why you would go from a supposed anti iraq war/pro universal healthcare candidate to one that is pro iraq war/anti universal healthcare the complete opposite.


Originally posted by lucien
I was a supporter of Bill Clinton. I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton. Just as you are a supporter of Obama, and that is your choice. They are two separate candidates, no matter how much the Obama camp wants to try and point out their similarities. They do not agree on all the issues, as you've pointed out with some of your examples, and it is beyond me why you would expect me to vote for a candidate I do not like.


Show me a dramatic difference between both candidates.


Originally posted by lucien
If the tables were turned, would you automatically vote for Clinton? I would hope that whether you did or didn't that either way you would vote for whomever you felt was the best candidate!


If Hillary was actually as good of a candidate as Obama I most certainly would vote for her because she has the same views as Obama. The thing you're not getting is that if you felt that the anti iraq war/universal healthcare/work on the economy/help the middle class platform was right for America why would you make a complete 180 and say that the pro war/anti universal healthcare/support the corporations/make the tax breaks permanent was the way to go since Hillary lost? Those are completely opposite views so you're most likely voting based on who you would rather have a beer with rather than the issues.


Originally posted by lucien
Again, I will ask the question no one has answered yet. What has Obama done thus far in his career to make "change"? Why has he not taken the opportunity before now to make the "change" he promises to make now?


You want to know what he's done to make change? First off, he just made the DNC stop accepting PAC and lobbyist money but here's more:

Two addressed foreign policy:
Promote relief, security and democracy in the Congo (2125)
Develop democratic institutions in areas under Palestinian control (2370).

Three addressed public health:
Improve mine safety (2803)
Increased breast cancer funding (597)
Reduce preterm delivery and complications, reduce infant mortality (707).

Two addressed openness and accountability in government:
Strengthening the Freedom of Information Act (2488)
Full disclosure of all entities receiving federal funds (2590)

Two addressed national security
Extend Terrorist Risk Insurance (467)
Amend the Patriot Act (2167)

One addressed the needs of the Armed Forces
Wave passport fees to visit graves, attend memorials/funerals of veterans abroad (1184).

...more continued on next post.

[edit on 6/6/08 by Kamikaze X]



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 06:13 PM
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11 addressed Education
Increase access of low income African Americans to higher education (1513)
Establish teaching residency programs (1574)
Increase early intervention services (2111)
Middle school curriculum improvements (2227)
Public database of scholarships, fellowships and financial aid (2428)
Summer learning programs (116)
TANF financial education promotion (924)
Higher education (1642)
Build capacity at community colleges (379)
Campus law enforcement in emergencies (1228)
Support for teachers (2060).

6 addressed Hurricane Katrina
Hurricane Katrina recovery (2319)
Emergency relief (1637)
Bankruptcy relief and community protection (1647)
Working family tax relief (2257)
Fair wages for recovery workers (1749)
Gulf coast infrastructure redevelopment (1836)

4 addressed Discrimination
Claims for civil class action based on discrimination (1989)
Domestic partnership benefits (2521)
Unresolved civil rights crimes (535)
Equality or two parent families (2286)

View More Here:

www.dailykos.com...


[edit on 6/6/08 by Kamikaze X]

[edit on 6/6/08 by Kamikaze X]



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 06:15 PM
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I deleted my quote.

[edit on 6/6/08 by Kamikaze X]



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 06:16 PM
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This thread is turning sour. All this talk about race and experience, but the OP still has not provided one legitimate reason to vote for McCain besides the fact that he is not Obama.

Have you considered that Clinton, and democrats in general, would be able to achieve much more in an Obama whitehouse than a McCain whitehouse?

I believe Obama's "change" campaign is set to take place if he wins the election, I don't think he's claiming to have dramatically changed politics already. What do you expect him to have accomplished anyway, as a senator?

And one final question to the OP, and this is a big one. What if Hillary endorses Obama, as its widely being reported she is planning to do. If her word is gold, and she endorses him, will you still feel the need to vote for McCain? Not considering the possibility of the Obama-Clinton ticket (which for some reason Clinton supporters wont hear), It's entirely likely that Hillary will endorse the democratic nominee. What will you do then?

I believe your answer will speak to your true intentions.

Edit: nice post kamikaze, very comprehensive list. I guess I spoke too soon about his abilities as a senator.

[edit on 6-6-2008 by drwizardphd]



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by drwizardphd
This thread is turning sour. All this talk about race and experience, but the OP still has not provided one legitimate reason to vote for McCain besides the fact that he is not Obama.

Have you considered that Clinton, and democrats in general, would be able to achieve much more in an Obama whitehouse than a McCain whitehouse?

I believe Obama's "change" campaign is set to take place if he wins the election, I don't think he's claiming to have dramatically changed politics already. What do you expect him to have accomplished anyway, as a senator?

And one final question to the OP, and this is a big one. What if Hillary endorses Obama, as its widely being reported she is planning to do. If her word is gold, and she endorses him, will you still feel the need to vote for McCain? Not considering the possibility of the Obama-Clinton ticket (which for some reason Clinton supporters wont hear), It's entirely likely that Hillary will endorse the democratic nominee. What will you do then?

I believe your answer will speak to your true intentions.

Edit: nice post kamikaze, very comprehensive list. I guess I spoke too soon about his abilities as a senator.

[edit on 6-6-2008 by drwizardphd]



You sly sly devil you


i have to agree with your last comment there

but why does he have to provide proof? I just provided it for you. You dont have to have a reason to not vote for someone who you dont like. And you dont have to "not liek" someone just because they're black.

personally, i despite hillary and obama, but you arleady knew that

i despise obama more because he brings race into this situation all the time, along side his hate-mongering wife

I wont vote for mccain or obama
i plan on chooseing a candidate i like from the write-in list

But good luck voting another racist into the white house
he maybe black, and he may speak like gold lined silk

but his words are just a facade for his racist intentions

you wait and see.





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