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Pure Insanity

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posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by The Nighthawk
 


I'm really sorry things aren't working out for you right now. But thanks for admitting that you do want society to take care of you. Most in your position won't even admit that much.

I asked you what else you thought was a right besides healthcare but apparently you have no answer. I was simply asking if food was one of those things. Of course I don't believe food is a right anymore than I believe healthcare is a right or a job or a car or anything else that needs someone else's labor to be produced.

I'm also sorry you have so little hope in your fellow man. I think you're misguided if you don't see people like me as a success story. I'm from a state that's been economically depressed since before I was born. I moved the heck out of there and made something of myself. And I didn't have anyone to pay my way for me. What about that doesn't inspire hope?

Well, I'm not 'ok with government housing' as you put it, but let's tackle one problem at a time, shall we? Do you really think that a world economic collapse could be averted by the government, the very people who caused it in the first place, whether willfully if they're malicious, or unwittingly if they're just inept? And these are the people you want in charge of your health.

As long as there are want ads out there, there are still jobs to be had. If they don't pay enough for your lifestyle then change your lifestyle. And if you can't go back to school, maybe you can find a tradesman to take you on as an apprentice. It's not your job to worry about the 40 million other people. Why don't you concentrate on your own life first? You can't help anyone if you still need help yourself. First put on your oxygen mask then help others...




posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by The Nighthawk

As the son of a medical professional I find this statement both ludicrous and insulting.


I apologize for the wake-up call. check with your dad/mom and see how much of your income is subsidized by pharmaceutical salesmen. Ask him/her about using Dichloroacetate salts to combat cancer. It works in cancer research, but is not patentable, so millions are needlessly dying every year while we (you and I) wait for a cure that has a profit margin. Ask him/her why malpractice is so high, and how much that one cost alone drives up his patients' costs? That's insurance doing that, the same insurers that are the very heart of every single US government endorsed healthcare plan.


Who is forcing you to?


No one - yet. Check out the now-infamous 'Hillary-care' bill that was soundly defeated a few years back. It did have that requirement. Do you really believe her new idea would be much different? I don't.

Here in Bama we have a law (as do most states) that requires auto insurance. The required policy has a rider for 'uninsured motorist'. Why, if everyone is required to have coverage? Because it costs more. Again, sorry to burst your bubble, but insurance companies are out to make money. They offer a service that is very needed in many instances, but making it mandatory will allow them to charge more. Maybe that's why the insurance corporations have such a big and powerful DC lobbying group? Nah, couldn't be...

As to Medicare, yes, it has worked well from what little I know of it. Why are you saying that people who hate it have messed it up? Can you give me any specifics on who those might be or how they have damaged it?

And I will support any health care proposal that leaves the decisions of health care in the hands of the one who receives the care. I will not support any system that takes the control of their own destiny from the hands of the individuals, and which rewards insurers for nothing rather than the medical professionals who do all the work.

I also support the medical practitioners who are doing their job in an honest effort to help their patients. I do not support those who are in it for the money, or those who ignore certain scientific findings because they are unprofitable or who over-prescribe medication, or who have some kind of political agenda. I hope your father (or mother, you did not specify) is in the former category.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by sc2099
reply to post by The Nighthawk
 


I'm really sorry things aren't working out for you right now. But thanks for admitting that you do want society to take care of you. Most in your position won't even admit that much.


I want society to take care of EVERYBODY, you included, because that's what Society IS.


I asked you what else you thought was a right besides healthcare but apparently you have no answer. I was simply asking if food was one of those things. Of course I don't believe food is a right anymore than I believe healthcare is a right or a job or a car or anything else that needs someone else's labor to be produced.


Typical response. I worked for it, you didn't, screw you. I DO work. I work my @$$ off. There just isn't anythign else out there.


I'm also sorry you have so little hope in your fellow man. I think you're misguided if you don't see people like me as a success story. I'm from a state that's been economically depressed since before I was born. I moved the heck out of there and made something of myself. And I didn't have anyone to pay my way for me. What about that doesn't inspire hope?


It would, if it were still possible for the majority of Americans. Mounting evidence proves it's not.


Well, I'm not 'ok with government housing' as you put it, but let's tackle one problem at a time, shall we? Do you really think that a world economic collapse could be averted by the government, the very people who caused it in the first place, whether willfully if they're malicious, or unwittingly if they're just inept? And these are the people you want in charge of your health.


Business, not government, is responsible for the impending collapse.


As long as there are want ads out there, there are still jobs to be had. If they don't pay enough for your lifestyle then change your lifestyle. And if you can't go back to school, maybe you can find a tradesman to take you on as an apprentice. It's not your job to worry about the 40 million other people. Why don't you concentrate on your own life first? You can't help anyone if you still need help yourself. First put on your oxygen mask then help others...


Because the world doesn't work that way. Since I'm not an illegal alien there's no construction/trade jobs to be had anymore. My lifestyle is already on a subsistence level. And yes, it IS my job to worry about others, because again, that's Society.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by The Nighthawk
 



If you'll refer to one of my earlier posts, you'll see that I've already addressed the subject of benefits that are truly collective and thus taxed collectively. I even specifically mentioned roads and defense (whether it be against invasion, fire, whatever).

You know, just because you have failed to take care of yourself doesn't mean that everyone else in society is incapable. Maybe you should take a look at your own life before deciding that people you have never met are in the same predicament.

Civilization is defined as


An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.


by dictionary.com. Nowhere does it mention collectivization, communism, socialism, or any other name you want to put on laziness. Just because it's your idea of paradise doesn't mean it's right for the rest of the world. That is definitely you being selfish and stroking your own ego by deciding what's best for you is best for the world.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by The Nighthawk

As the son of a medical professional I find this statement both ludicrous and insulting.


I apologize for the wake-up call. check with your dad/mom and see how much of your income is subsidized by pharmaceutical salesmen. Ask him/her about using Dichloroacetate salts to combat cancer. It works in cancer research, but is not patentable, so millions are needlessly dying every year while we (you and I) wait for a cure that has a profit margin. Ask him/her why malpractice is so high, and how much that one cost alone drives up his patients' costs? That's insurance doing that, the same insurers that are the very heart of every single US government endorsed healthcare plan.


Which is exactly why the whole damn thing needs to be taken out of private hands and changed to serve the needs of the People, and the People alone. As long as health care is for-profit it will be corrupt.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:04 PM
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This is something that puzzles me - there are plenty of social services in the US but no social healthcare.

Could state rather than federal healthcare be the answer?

That aside, I think it is important to remember that our societies are based on the acquisition of things, and because of this we give corporations control over our lives.

So much control in fact that corporations now dictate government policy.

Is this right?

I don't think so - I'm not advocating pure socialism, but I AM advocating a return (or maybe it would be the first time) of power for the people who elect the government.

In other words, the voters.

Government run by corporate pressure has been shown not to work.

Government run for the people it purports to represent may be a step in the right direction.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by The Nighthawk


Which is exactly why the whole damn thing needs to be taken out of private hands and changed to serve the needs of the People, and the People alone. As long as health care is for-profit it will be corrupt.



LOL am I to assume that you mean that government is incorruptible? What a joke. Government serves itself, not the people it exists to serve. The only way to ensure that power is not abused is to give people the power over their own lives! Once someone has power over another, it's already too late.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by sc2099]



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by The Nighthawk
Whew! Well, this has indeed been enlightening. Thank you NightHawk, for your replies. Unfortunately, I have to go to work now, so this will (probably
) be my last post to you for now.

You can survive without help. You do not need healthcare, if you take care of yourself. Government is as evil as business; neither of them want to help you, but rather they want to help themselves. At least in private business, the people can speak loudly with their patronization and their money to make quick changes. I realize they don't, but that's another issue.

I was at one point indigent. I lost my business due to medical problems and had no help when it was needed. It took me a long time to recover. But I finally did, and while I can no longer do what I did before, I was able to find a new job. I applied for a truck driver training program with a student loan. I worked temp labor at the county fair to make enough money to buy some computer components, then bid on and got the contract for 9 computer systems, with some help from a friend (nothing inside, he just told me who to contact). I built the machines, got paid, and used that money to live on while I trained for my new job. Now I make pretty good money, get to be home a lot (so I can rant on ATS
) and am happy. I did not do the charity thing, or the socialism thing. I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps. So can you, if you want to. There is nothing to fear; there is everything to gain.

Bud, I want to apologize for helping to show how unobtainable your dream is. Perhaps with work we can slowly work toward world peace. I believe we have a long way to go, as NightHawk's (past, I hope) fear proves.

Peace to you all, Redneck go truckin' now.


TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by budski
 

What a great article, for once I was almost speechless, almost. This has been coming for a long time.
Sharon Stone recently made headlines when she pondered that maybe Karma had something to do with what has been happening in China. She got a lot of hell for that, undeservedly.
Countries as well as indivivduals accrue Karma, the unfortunate effect is that when it strikes a country the innocent as well as the guilty suffer.
If what is inferred in the article is true and I have a strong feeling that it is, then the religious right are more in line and supportive of evil and the satanic side of life than with the tenets of true Christ like behavior.
Not that it really matters for our civilization is on it's way out anyway, the great experiment is once again a failure. The world would more than likely be better off with humans anyway. We never learn from our past, if God truly created us as we've all been taught, He certainly did a piss poor job. Of course I don't believe that stuff anyway, for God is nothing what we have been taught or percieved God to be.
God doesn't have to destroy us we do an excellent job of that on our own.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


It's not exactly true that there exists no socialized healthcare in the US. Medicare and Medicaid are both paid for by the government.

I totally agree that power needs to be returned to the people. Giving government control over anything at all only serves to centralize its power. It's like Skynet haha, once it's been given so much power and grown so large it becomes self aware. Power can't belong both to citizens and government, but it only rightfully belongs to the citizenry.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:22 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Cheers to you Redneck for doing it for yourself. People like you deserve more than to be ridiculed by those who choose not to achieve anything in life. You should be held up as an example, not derided as a fluke. I'm glad you're doing so well after such a bad spell.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 02:23 PM
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reply to post by sc2099
 


A fair point, but only a system of central government has the ability to provide and care for the infrastructure that a society needs.

We've come a long way from when kings had absolute power, now we need to go a little further.

Remember these people are supposed to be "public servants" and at the moment they're not.

I'm off out to watch my mate play a gig at my local bar, and I'll probably be getting up to do a couple of numbers myself - I'll be back later - alcohol intake permitting







[edit on 5/6/2008 by budski]



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by iiinvision
 


Well said. The only way to overcome the dark is to swamp it with light and therefore those seeking true freedom, peace and harmony need to strive to evolve their consciousness. This is the next evolutionary step and it only takes a small percentage of people to achieve this before the Hundredth Monkey effect kicks in and everyone's lives take the ultimate turn towards light and true adventure.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 12:54 AM
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reply to post by Nineteen
 


Starred and Flagged! Good on ya or whatever you chaps say. It's to the point where I just don't see a way out except through the wall and I think it will be disastrous. But keep your head up and don't believe what everything you see and I think the best bet would be to drop any kind of support for anyone the MSM and Washington throws at us.



posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 03:04 AM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
  • Terrorism - fear of destruction of our country has been used to take away a plethora of freedoms.
  • Global Warming - fear of planetary destruction is being used to enact more restrictions and taxes than at any time in modern history.
  • Energy - fear of losing our ability to travel or to work is driving people to panic and agree to almost anything to keep gasoline prices 'low' (which ain't working, btw).
  • Taxes - We fear our government programs which keep us comfortable and safe from the evils of big business will be stopped, because those evil rich people aren't paying their fair share (when in fact, it is the 'rich' who pay 90% of the taxes)
  • Smoking - we fear that we will get sick from the cancerous, disease-ridden smoke that is dissipating in the air (while ignoring the car exhausts and smokestacks belching out hundreds of times as much noxiousity), so we allow our savior, the government, to pass laws that remove rights from the 'evil' smokers and the businesses that cater to them.
  • Nuclear Power - we fear that there will be some sort of explosion (impossible) or meltdown (improbable) or that somehow we will irretrievably destroy our planet with radioactive waste. So we stop building nuke plants and keep buying more oil.
  • Guns - we are told how guns kill, so we fear them and allow the government to take them away from us. This despite the Constitutional right to keep and bear, and the fact that never in the history of the world has a gun ever acted by itself to intentionally kill anyone or anything (although people do it a lot).
  • drugs - the ultimate fear, the fear of death! To combat this fear, we pay exorbitant prices and allow pharmaceutical companies to literally rape us financially in order to proong our lives (even though I have yet to see a modern drug actually extend someone's life without extending their pain as well).
  • Socialized medicine - again, the fear of death causes us to try anything to make absolutely sure that we will be saved by some doctor when we need him/her... even allowing a greedy and uncaring government to take over the process and in the end denying ourselves the thing we want.


  • This is your political agenda made to read like a list of public fears. Clever attempt though.



    posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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    reply to post by TheRedneck
     


    now thats what i call summing it up. i'm just a simple man with a wife and a daughter ,i live in the country, why is it that people can't just keep things simple enjoy life and coexist yes we as human do have a difference in opinion, but but that what being intelligent is all about. if people would stop and look at nature it holds alot of our answer we search for animals exist together with a minimal amount of caos. why can't we do the same.



    posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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    reply to post by budski
     


    The I'm not sure I understand your point. Your in essence saying "humanity is screwed because humanity is screwed." Useless. Last time I checked the West was a reasonably secure place to raise a family. Most people don't worry about roving bands of thieves taking their lives or livestock. You can basically say what you want about your government, etc. This is not the case in most of the world.
    Do you think these freedoms were attined through pacifism and love? Did it just happen? Are you saying Aryan-Celts-whatever are superior to everyone else? What the heck are you saying?
    How am I a victim of false propaganda?
    Example, when Western powers were building a case for an attack on Iraq I thought it was odd that they put all the false spin on it that they did. As far as I was concerned, they didn't need some terrorist plot connection or new evidence of WMDs.
    Saddam was tyrant and had plans that would have cost me even more money in the long run. As soon as he stopped being useful as a buffer against the Iranian revolutionaries, I knew his days were numbered.
    He used nerve gas on his own people. He killed his relatives. He practiced ecological warfare on the marsh people in southern Iraq. He was acomplete piece of crap. Who needs some trendy new reason to kill him?
    I think it's you and your ilk that are the problem. I expect people to work for aliving. Today that makes me evil. In my grandfather's day it was expected and respected. Loafers and dullards weren't tolerated. When does mercy become crulety? With the coming economic slump MILLIONS WILL STARVE!! Why? Because they really didn't have the resources or skills to support themselves to begin with. How did this happen? Becasue well-intentioned souls spouting meaningless b.s. about love and vibes propped them up. Why don't you take your food and money and head to the third world instead of pointing fingers and indicting humanity?

    I don't take handouts. I grow my own food. I pay my way. I didn't come from a wealthy family and I am indebted to no man. (Except for some student loans hanging over my head that I pay as I can.)
    That's right. Lower middle class white Americans still pay for education beyond high school.

    Radical Islam is a cancer. Worse, and I stress this, worse than consumerism. Yeah, like most things in life it's a choice between evils. That's reality. At least here in the US, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, whoever can make their way. Regardless of color. I know how Europeans treat minorities. You compartmentalize them.
    Well in the US, we INTEGRATE.

    The Iranians want to kill all the Jews. Doesn't this ring a bell? How can you forget the second world war so easily? Oh, we just supposed to let the freakin' Germans doe whatever they wanted becasue violence is wrong?
    Hey, Douglas Adams is dead and buried. And the answer ain't 42.



    posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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    reply to post by budski
     

    Let me ask you; do you know anything about thermodynamics? Ecology? Populations in closed systems?
    You advocate a commercial-free system where everyone takes responsibility and no one abuses anyone else.
    That's patently absurd. It goes against everything we know. Facts, data and history say it doesn't ever work that way. I think they tried it before. And it failed. Yeah, there are still Marxists, but they all fail to recognize that most of the world doesn't even know who Marx was. And wouldn't care if they did.
    So you want a universal social safety net, but the population is supposed to retain motivation/ambition to seek enlightenment and make wise conscientious decisions. But, obviously, since they didn't have to deal with opposition or overcome anything, they have nothing invested. And yet you expect them to be wise and caring? And have concern for the well-being of future generations? To borrow a term: poppycock.
    Empathy springs from sufferring, pal.
    Animals don't wage war becasue they don't have medicine or agriculture. Baby animals die in droves. Weak members of non-human populations rarely survive to a reproductive age. When demand exceeds supply you have die-offs.

    What's your point? So, the West lets Iran destroy Israel and in the name of world peace the Israelis stand there and get blown up or wander back into Europe or wherever.
    Europe throws up its hand and invites all the ME to come and take what they want because it's the humane thing to do. Tell you what, Jesus, why don't you take your alcohol money for the evenings festivities and give it to Hamas? It's the only right thing to do. You certainly don't have any respect for Western values or ethics. And your attitude is the same as spitting on the graves of people who died so that you could be safe from invaders. My kin and yours. I don't get it. Maybe it's because people in the U.S. still do some work. Ever heard of it? Sweat. Dirt. Earth. Grease. Maybe it's because many of us here don't rely on civil authorities to wipe our asses for us. Do you think you'd be popping off to the pub all "cheerio and whanot" if most Americans actually adopted the naive post-hippy silliness you promote into policy? I think not.
    Expert. Writer. Musician. Useless.
    Play us a protest song. It'll make it all better.



    posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 01:55 PM
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    This thread is full of insightful comments and valid opinions. It seems to have gravitated towards a discussion regarding entitlements of the citizen within an organized society.

    This rendered my input sort of 'off topic'. But, if you will be so kind as to indulge me, I would like to share it anyway.

    The insanity of our world circumstance, in my opinion, is due, in no small part, to the fact that our global population (NOT it's so called 'leaders') are not now nor ever have come close to a consensus on what aspects of human existence are personally our own.

    Human rights, such as the commonly touted 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' are suitably vague enough for speeches and lofty 'declarations', but in practice, these rights translate to some real problematic dynamics.

    We as individuals all believe we should not have to endure such interference and demands from any person or group that imposes unwanted stress on our lives. However, we are often inclined to compromise such 'selfishness' in the spirit of cooperative coexistence.

    Each human has value, seems a precept of this mentality, and its hard to argue (since I'm human too) against it. The value of humanity must translate into inherent inalienable rights, certainly this much can be accepted universally (except maybe for the adherers to the notion of 'illuminated' status as superiority).

    But there are those who have enlarged their concepts of right and wrong to extend beyond themselves, and in doing so have created a 'synthetic' morality which aggrandizes themselves and the like-minded over those who are not. Once a person has such a morality to lord over another - equality vanishes and status and class becomes operative in their relationship.

    This is the ROOT of the insanity to which you refer, I believe. All else is distraction. Needless to say, as symbol users and analytical creatures, we create all sort of artifices to 'represent' our superiority (religion, class, education, wealth) but essentially the key is the differentiation between what would be oneself, and another human being.

    Sadly, this embedded tendency to devalue people becomes part of the cultural norm, and once there becomes institutionalized and entrenched. From there we are off and running into feuds, wars, aggression displacing or destroying one another - finding solace in our 'created' morality. But at the end of the day, we have only diminished ourselves.



    posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 02:28 PM
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    When the leader of one of the main players in the mideast is still calling for another country to be pushed into the sea, there can be no world peace. And no amount of love will solve the issues over there.



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