Pure Insanity

I think is possible, I have been studying the Jehova's Witnesses beliefs and the way they live (not how they worship) and they kinda got their sh17 straight. It's amazing the amount of unity that they have and they way they help each other. Of course as humans we have flaws, but they handle their problems in a real civilized manner. Actually, I'm quite impressed with them.

Anyway, I don't believe the way they do but I sure hope people could learn how they do get along and they do help each toher.

reply to post by jamiros


There are religions that claim to have found "the answer" and in some cases it may be true.

However, given the nature of humanity at the moment, even a one religion world would soon divide into factions and start fighting.

I know the idea of peace is somewhat utopian, and there ARE reasons and times when war is the only option - recent wars don't really fall into this category though...

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

Thanks, nice post, starred - I can see a key theme in all of the instances of fear that you mentioned.

It may be because of my management training that I spotted it, but anyway, all those instances can be said to boil down to one single fear:

Fear of Change.

I think that despite your management training you've missed TheRedneck's point. I believe that he is saying that people are made to fear to bring about change, rather than being made to be afraid of change itself.

For example, in TR's example of terrorism, people are made to fear an invisible enemy to bring about curtailment of natural rights. Like TR said, people are made to fear guns to bring about a state of gun control. People are made to fear death to ensure that they spend ridiculous sums of money on pharmaceuticals. I'll even take this a step further and say that people are made to fear getting old so they spend their cash on plastic surgery and drugs like Viagara and Cialis, none of which even claim to improve health, only vanity.

TheRedneck said it best regarding socialized medicine:

the fear of death causes us to try anything to make absolutely sure that we will be saved by some doctor when we need him/her... even allowing a greedy and uncaring government to take over the process and in the end denying ourselves the thing we want.

It's only fear that makes people crave things they don't need, like for the government to take care of their health, their money, and their entire lives. But it's not fear of change, it's fear of the way things already are.

reply to post by sc2099


Good point but fear of change covers the whole spectrum of "fear" and "change" so in actuality I missed nothing.

A more polite way of putting your point across would have been asking me to clarify, rather than assuming I had missed something.



[edit on 5/6/2008 by budski]

Actually, I was making a double point. You both got it.

Fear can be used to prevent change, as well as to encourage change. OK, make it a triple point. The third point is that only by conquering that fear can someone be truly free and truly civilized.

What do you fear?

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck

What do you fear?

The current status quo.

It has the potential to destroy us all.

Originally posted by sc2099
I think that despite your management training you've missed TheRedneck's point. I believe that he is saying that people are made to fear to bring about change, rather than being made to be afraid of change itself.

For example, in TR's example of terrorism, people are made to fear an invisible enemy to bring about curtailment of natural rights. Like TR said, people are made to fear guns to bring about a state of gun control. People are made to fear death to ensure that they spend ridiculous sums of money on pharmaceuticals. I'll even take this a step further and say that people are made to fear getting old so they spend their cash on plastic surgery and drugs like Viagara and Cialis, none of which even claim to improve health, only vanity.

TheRedneck said it best regarding socialized medicine:

the fear of death causes us to try anything to make absolutely sure that we will be saved by some doctor when we need him/her... even allowing a greedy and uncaring government to take over the process and in the end denying ourselves the thing we want.

It's only fear that makes people crave things they don't need, like for the government to take care of their health, their money, and their entire lives. But it's not fear of change, it's fear of the way things already are.

That's a load of bullcrap. Healthcare is a NECESSITY. If you don't believe that ask a diabetic who's in need of constant testing and insulin shots every day for the rest of their lives. People need healthcare, no if's, and's or but's, and too many people aren't getting it. Many of those who are get it from companies that have a harder time competing in the global arena because of higher overhead from their health care costs vs. companies based in countries where health care is a government service. Single-payer health care will SAVE THIS NATION. But, people don't want to hear it, because it's just "socialist".

Just an aside for those against socialized health care: Have you ever been to a country that has it, and seen how happy those people are? I have. Maybe people need to get over their selfish "My paycheck, I spend what I want when I want and screw everyone else" mentality. This is a Society, and it's time this Society grew up and got with the program. Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid. Funny thing is, once you have it's you'll wonder how you ever got along without it.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

reply to post by The Nighthawk


Which brings us full circle and back to greed and power.

While any attitude of "I'm OK jack, I got mine" exists we will stop any social advances and possibly evolutionary advances as a species.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by The Nighthawk

 

Which brings us full circle and back to greed and power.

While any attitude of "I'm OK jack, I got mine" exists we will stop any social advances and possibly evolutionary advances as a species.

Exactly. Rugged individualism, while it has its place, must be balanced with a societal world view. People who care only for the Individual do not function well in a Society where people have to work together. Pure Socialism, on the other hand, can be just as dangerous when it steps over the line in curtailing what individual freedoms must exist. The real question is, where is that line?

In my mind the line should be further left, at least in terms of what services should be provided for by government. Right now the "services" line is far to the right for most people, while the "overstepping rights" line is too far left. I think a reversal is in order. I want health care. But, stay out of my house and let me do as I please with my life. Why can't we have both?

Ah, so many replies; so little time.

To budski:

A more polite way of putting your point across would have been asking me to clarify, rather than assuming I had missed something.

Yes, you're right. It would have.

fear of change covers the whole spectrum of "fear" and "change" so in actuality I missed nothing.

I'm not really sure what you're even saying here. "Fear of change" covers every single fear there is, and change too? Please clarify.

To TheRedneck:

What do you fear?

Well, I try not to fear anything. But if I had to name something it would be a fear of Western countries and Western culture moving in a suicidal direction.

To The Nighthawk:

Many of those who are get it from companies that have a harder time competing in the global arena because of higher overhead from their health care costs vs. companies based in countries where health care is a government service. Single-payer health care will SAVE THIS NATION. But, people don't want to hear it, because it's just "socialist".

So by all means, let's pass on the ridiculous burden to the taxpayer. Whose side are you on anyway? IMO, healthcare shouldn't neeed to be provided by businesses either; it should be everyone's own responsibility.

Just an aside for those against socialized health care: Have you ever been to a country that has it, and seen how happy those people are?

Uh, yeah, I live in one. And it sucks. It sucks in a different way than "privatized" healthcare (which in the US is hardly privatized anyway), but it still sucks. Sure, people are all happy until tax time and they owe thousands of dollars to pay for Bob's drug rehab and Sue, a lifelong smoker I might add, well she needed cancer treatment so we had to pay for that too. Even if you didn't use the healthcare system at all you still have to pay a bundle for it.

No one is happy about it who isn't leaching off the system. Socialized healthcare is just one more reason for people not to take responsibility for themselves and their own actions, like smoking, drinking, unhealthy food, riding a motorcycle, and every other potentially dangerous behavior. The only way for socialized healthcare to ever truly be fair would be to outlaw all these things plus anything else that might ever endanger health and put undue burden on all the taxpayers.

reply to post by The Nighthawk

That's a load of bullcrap. Healthcare is a NECESSITY. If you don't believe that ask a diabetic who's in need of constant testing and insulin shots every day for the rest of their lives. People need healthcare, no if's, and's or but's, and too many people aren't getting it.

Too many people are getting too much healthcare. Cases in point, from people I have known or presently know very well:

• A good friend in his 50s was suffering from overwork (exhaustion). He went to a doctor for a checkup and was told he was a diabetic, requiring insulin. He went to another doctor for a second opinion. This doctor ran more intensive tests which determined he was not diabetic. He was also told by a doctor that had he taken a dose of insulin, he would have become diabetic. last I heard, he was still alive, about 5 years later. No health problems.
  
• My uncle, one of the strongest/toughest men I ever knew, was run over by a wagon and team of mules he was working with. He developed a muscle tear from that which caused him to have surgery, which was successful. After the surgery, he was weak and listless, and died a couple of months later. ghe was fine before he had the surgery.
  
• A great-uncle of mine lived alone and hadn't been to a doctor in probably 40 years. He wasn't sure of his age, but was in his 90s. He took no medicine, but he loved cigars, fried foods and gin. He eventually died at age 98, laying in a bedroom in his brother's house a couple of months after being diagnosed with stomach cancer. He was still smoking, eating fried foods, and drinking iced gin. He died with a smile on his face, after 98 years of active, happy, healthy life.
  
• My mother (in her 60s) was healthy until she was diagnosed with scholeraderma (sp?). After a few years, she does not have the symptoms of scholeraderma, but she does have a huge medicine bill every month, and is constantly having to be monitored for the medicines (not the disease). She is no longer active since going to the doctor, and experiences wide mood swings. She has also become a free-bleeder due to the Plavix.
  
• My aunt (70s) recently had a minor stroke and fell, fracturing her hip. In the hospital, she was found to be taking medications which the doctors said contributed to her stroke. She was taken off the medications and now is active and alert, where before she was lifeless and robotic.
  
• One of my daughter's friends (age 16) recently went to a doctor for a bad cough that was persistent. She was given prescriptions for over $200 worth of medication, more than her parents could afford. The doctor gave her samples to get her started. One of the medications caused such a major allergic reaction she has now been to the hospital three separate times for the reaction, and has to take allergy medication every four hours (day and night) for three to four weeks until the original medicine gets out of her system.
  

Sorry, but I don't want your healthcare. You go ahead and be the guinea pig all you want. Leave me out of it.

Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid.

Sorry, you do not control my costs. That is the problem, not the solution. Run your own life as you see fit, and if you do a very good job, maybe I and others will see fit to voluntarily follow you.

In the meantime, your fear is apparent. The fear of failing in that endeavor.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by The Nighthawk

This is a Society, and it's time this Society grew up and got with the program. Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid. Funny thing is, once you have it's you'll wonder how you ever got along without it.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

I just have to address this one thing. Only benefits that are collectively shared should be collectively taxed. Defense is a benefit that is shared by everyone and so should be paid for by everyone. So are roads, sidewalks, parks, public works, etc. HOWEVER, healthcare is enjoyed by individuals. What I do to my health has no effect on what someone 50 miles away does to their health. My neighbor's good health has absolutely no benefit to me whatsoever and vise versa. So the cost of an individual's healthcare should be born by that individual.

Working together is great, but no man should willfully become the burden of his brother. Kind of makes brotherhood suck for everyone.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by The Nighthawk

That's a load of bullcrap. Healthcare is a NECESSITY. If you don't believe that ask a diabetic who's in need of constant testing and insulin shots every day for the rest of their lives. People need healthcare, no if's, and's or but's, and too many people aren't getting it.

Too many people are getting too much healthcare. Cases in point, from people I have known or presently know very well:

• A good friend in his 50s was suffering from overwork (exhaustion). He went to a doctor for a checkup and was told he was a diabetic, requiring insulin. He went to another doctor for a second opinion. This doctor ran more intensive tests which determined he was not diabetic. He was also told by a doctor that had he taken a dose of insulin, he would have become diabetic. last I heard, he was still alive, about 5 years later. No health problems.
  
• My uncle, one of the strongest/toughest men I ever knew, was run over by a wagon and team of mules he was working with. He developed a muscle tear from that which caused him to have surgery, which was successful. After the surgery, he was weak and listless, and died a couple of months later. ghe was fine before he had the surgery.
  
• A great-uncle of mine lived alone and hadn't been to a doctor in probably 40 years. He wasn't sure of his age, but was in his 90s. He took no medicine, but he loved cigars, fried foods and gin. He eventually died at age 98, laying in a bedroom in his brother's house a couple of months after being diagnosed with stomach cancer. He was still smoking, eating fried foods, and drinking iced gin. He died with a smile on his face, after 98 years of active, happy, healthy life.
  
• My mother (in her 60s) was healthy until she was diagnosed with scholeraderma (sp?). After a few years, she does not have the symptoms of scholeraderma, but she does have a huge medicine bill every month, and is constantly having to be monitored for the medicines (not the disease). She is no longer active since going to the doctor, and experiences wide mood swings. She has also become a free-bleeder due to the Plavix.
  
• My aunt (70s) recently had a minor stroke and fell, fracturing her hip. In the hospital, she was found to be taking medications which the doctors said contributed to her stroke. She was taken off the medications and now is active and alert, where before she was lifeless and robotic.
  
• One of my daughter's friends (age 16) recently went to a doctor for a bad cough that was persistent. She was given prescriptions for over $200 worth of medication, more than her parents could afford. The doctor gave her samples to get her started. One of the medications caused such a major allergic reaction she has now been to the hospital three separate times for the reaction, and has to take allergy medication every four hours (day and night) for three to four weeks until the original medicine gets out of her system.
  

Sorry, but I don't want your healthcare. You go ahead and be the guinea pig all you want. Leave me out of it.

Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid.

Sorry, you do not control my costs. That is the problem, not the solution. Run your own life as you see fit, and if you do a very good job, maybe I and others will see fit to voluntarily follow you.

In the meantime, your fear is apparent. The fear of failing in that endeavor.

TheRedneck

What you're essentially saying is, because you've had bad experiences with the medical profession, medical science is bunk and you're afraid of it. You're especially afraid of having to pay for it. But, for every person you know whose life has been screwed up by bad medicine, there's twenty more whose lives have been saved, and that's a fact you can take to the bank.

Originally posted by sc2099

Originally posted by The Nighthawk

This is a Society, and it's time this Society grew up and got with the program. Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid. Funny thing is, once you have it's you'll wonder how you ever got along without it.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

I just have to address this one thing. Only benefits that are collectively shared should be collectively taxed. Defense is a benefit that is shared by everyone and so should be paid for by everyone. So are roads, sidewalks, parks, public works, etc. HOWEVER, healthcare is enjoyed by individuals. What I do to my health has no effect on what someone 50 miles away does to their health. My neighbor's good health has absolutely no benefit to me whatsoever and vise versa. So the cost of an individual's healthcare should be born by that individual.

Working together is great, but no man should willfully become the burden of his brother. Kind of makes brotherhood suck for everyone.

Spoken like a true believer in Greed.

So what, pray tell, do those who can't afford health care do? I'm not talking about "welfare moms", mind you, but people who work hard, probably just as hard (if not harder) than you, but make a crappy wage? And there's no better-paying jobs to be found? You're stuck working just to keep working, no health care, no hope, no future. Even getting more education won't help because you can't afford tuition, can't get a student loan and even if you did there's literally no jobs to be had when you graduate. What do you do?

There's over 40 million of us asking that question right now in America, myself included.

It's time to regard health care as a right. A basic human right the same as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness--because without your health you have nothing else.

And just because you don't need it right now, and haven't yet, you're damn lucky. Your time WILL come.

And if you're not happy having single-payer healthcare you're the exception. I have NEVER met anyone who lives with such a system who was unhappy with it. Not just because they don't have to worry about the cost to themselves, but because their coverage is GUARANTEED.

One of the problems with private health care is, because it's for-profit, you can be denied coverage for things you need to survive if treating you affects the bottom line. It doesn't matter how much you've already paid, how good your coverage supposedly is, you're suddenly a dead weight and they need to cut you off.

I guess by your logic the working poor should just accept there's no hope and kill themselves.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

reply to post by The Nighthawk

for every person you know whose life has been screwed up by bad medicine, there's twenty more whose lives have been saved

If that be true, then there are twenty families who have had all their family members saved with no screw-ups. That alone is reason to oppose socialized medicine. Any one of us could be that 'target family' next. Or, you could simply drop the conspiracy against me and mine and admit that health services do more harm than good more often than not. That makes more sense to me, but then again, I could be wrong.

As far as my fears, I have no fear of socialized medicine. I simply do not want to be imprisoned, which will be the result due to my impending refusal to submit my body to those I do not trust.. I fail to see how I could fear paying for healthcare, since I do so now, of my free will. While I am not satisfied with the present state of our health care, I have yet to see any US government program which operated in the best interests of the people. I will admit that the possibility of one someday doing so exists. I have never been one for such a long-shot gamble.

I agree with sc2099 above. Healthcare is a personal decision and and a personal benefit. The only part of socialized medicine I can agree with is a way to allow the poor or indigent to have the same access as the wealthy. I can get behind that idea wholeheartedly. I cannot get behind the idea of a government that has a well-proven track record of inefficiency and abuse being in charge of people's bodies.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by The Nighthawk


There's over 40 million of us asking that question right now in America, myself included.

It's time to regard health care as a right. A basic human right the same as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness--because without your health you have nothing else.

And just because you don't need it right now, and haven't yet, you're damn lucky. Your time WILL come.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Oh I see. The lack of healthcare is affecting you personally, so you're up in arms about the government not providing it. Meanwhile, you look down on people who do not want or do not need to become burdens to society for being selfish. You are the one who is selfish for wanting society to take care of you. Total Hypocrisy.

What else do you think is a right that people shouldn't be forced to pay for? Food? Maybe the next time I'm at the store I'll grab some steaks and tell them to bill the government because it's my right to eat. I don't think I'd get away with that, so why should people be able to steal from their countrymen in another regard?

And there's no better-paying jobs to be found? You're stuck working just to keep working, no health care, no hope, no future. Even getting more education won't help because you can't afford tuition, can't get a student loan and even if you did there's literally no jobs to be had when you graduate. What do you do?

Spoken like someone who doesn't believe in mankind at all.

What do you do? You move to where the economy is better. You get student loans and go to school. If you can't get one then save up to go to tech school. If a person is earning as little as you say, they should have no problem getting section 8 housing. Worst comes to worst, you ask for help from a charitable organization, or a church. The point is, whatever they do they do it themselves or with help that is volunteered, not stolen.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by sc2099]

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by The Nighthawk

for every person you know whose life has been screwed up by bad medicine, there's twenty more whose lives have been saved

If that be true, then there are twenty families who have had all their family members saved with no screw-ups. That alone is reason to oppose socialized medicine. Any one of us could be that 'target family' next. Or, you could simply drop the conspiracy against me and mine and admit that health services do more harm than good more often than not. That makes more sense to me, but then again, I could be wrong.

As the son of a medical professional I find this statement both ludicrous and insulting.

As far as my fears, I have no fear of socialized medicine. I simply do not want to be imprisoned, which will be the result due to my impending refusal to submit my body to those I do not trust..

Who is forcing you to?

I fail to see how I could fear paying for healthcare, since I do so now, of my free will. While I am not satisfied with the present state of our health care, I have yet to see any US government program which operated in the best interests of the people. I will admit that the possibility of one someday doing so exists. I have never been one for such a long-shot gamble.

I agree with sc2099 above. Healthcare is a personal decision and and a personal benefit. The only part of socialized medicine I can agree with is a way to allow the poor or indigent to have the same access as the wealthy. I can get behind that idea wholeheartedly. I cannot get behind the idea of a government that has a well-proven track record of inefficiency and abuse being in charge of people's bodies.

Medicare has been more efficient than private care for years. Only recently, as those who hate it have deliberately tried to screw it up, has it faltered. Medicare's overhead is a fraction of that of private insurers.

How about Dennis Kucinich's plan: Open Medicare to ALL, on a voluntary basis, and let it compete in the open market.

And as for you paying for other peoples' care, if you pay a private insurer you already do that anyway. Your premiums go to pay for your neighbor's care. Likewise, when you need care, your neighbor pays for you. It doesn't matter whose pockets it lines--if you have health care you ARE paying for other people besides yourself. So what would you rather do: Pay a private company for care they may withold at any time, or a government-funded system that guarantees you care regadless of circumstance? You pay either way. The idea of it being entirely your decision, unless you completely opt out and hope never to need it, is demonstrably false. Don't believe it? Ask an insurance professional what those premiums really pay for.

Originally posted by sc2099

Originally posted by The Nighthawk


There's over 40 million of us asking that question right now in America, myself included.

It's time to regard health care as a right. A basic human right the same as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness--because without your health you have nothing else.

And just because you don't need it right now, and haven't yet, you're damn lucky. Your time WILL come.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Oh I see. The lack of healthcare is affecting you personally, so you're up in arms about the government not providing it. Meanwhile, you look down on people who do not want or do not need to become burdens to society for being selfish. You are the one who is selfish for wanting society to take care of you. Total Hypocrisy.

No, Practicality. I'm one of millions. American companies who hire thousands of people are hemorrhaging money to pay for it. Its price has risen far faster than the rate of inflation and real wages are down across the board for the majority of working people. It's a death spiral only government can stop.

What else do you think is a right that people shouldn't be forced to pay for? Food? Maybe the next time I'm at the store I'll grab some steaks and tell them to bill the government because it's my right to eat. I don't think I'd get away with that, so why should people be able to steal from their countrymen in another regard?

Oh please. Every time the health care issue comes up someone brings up "free food". Apples and oranges.

And there's no better-paying jobs to be found? You're stuck working just to keep working, no health care, no hope, no future. Even getting more education won't help because you can't afford tuition, can't get a student loan and even if you did there's literally no jobs to be had when you graduate. What do you do?

Spoken like someone who doesn't believe in mankind at all.

And with people like you out there, why should I?

What do you do? You move to where the economy is better. You get student loans and go to school. If you can't get one then save up to go to tech school. If a person is earning as little as you say, they should have no problem getting section 8 housing. Worst comes to worst, you ask for help from a charitable organization, or a church. The point is, whatever they do they do it themselves or with help that is volunteered, not stolen.

For 40 million of us? What are you smoking? Can I have some of that? Too many people, not enough resources in the private or charitable sectors. And Section 8? So you're OK with government housing but not health care. Who's a hypocrite here? And I've already stated, school is no longer an option. The economy sucks EVERYWHERE. The world is on the verge of economic collapse. Only Government can fix that.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk


I guess by your logic the working poor should just accept there's no hope and kill themselves.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

That's funny, I believe that's your logic. Perhaps if there weren't so many taxes, businesses could afford to pay people more and employees could keep more of their money, thereby lifting themselves out of poverty rather than waiting for the government to do it for them.

What makes you think people can't do things for themselves? What makes you think everyone is so bloody stupid or helpless that they need someone to take care of them like a child? I don't think you're giving people enough credit.

Originally posted by sc2099

Originally posted by The Nighthawk


I guess by your logic the working poor should just accept there's no hope and kill themselves.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]

That's funny, I believe that's your logic. Perhaps if there weren't so many taxes, businesses could afford to pay people more

False. Many businesses are making record profits and taxes have not risen. Some companies, like the airlines and car manufacturers, are hurting. But, many aren't, and their reason for paying less has NOTHING to do with taxes and EVERYTHING to do with greed. I find it hard to believe a CEO with three yachts and a private jet is crippled by his tax burden.

and employees could keep more of their money, thereby lifting themselves out of poverty rather than waiting for the government to do it for them.

False. It just doesn't work that way. Some things MUST be provided for. Privatization increases costs and decreases efficiency. If you don't believe that take a look at how much your take-home is. Now kiss it ALL goodbye after driving privatized toll roads, paying privatized police, fire, etc.

What makes you think people can't do things for themselves?

Because it's TRUE?!?!?!???!? Hello? Is this thing on? You think if I could afford health care I wouldn't buy it? You know why I don't have it? Because if I did I wouldn't have money for food. Or clothes. Or rent. The price is too high. Welcome to Working Poor America.

What makes you think everyone is so bloody stupid or helpless that they need someone to take care of them like a child? I don't think you're giving people enough credit.

And I don't think you get the point of Civilization. Everyone supports everyone else. I am my brother's keeper, and he is mine. That's Society. But apparently you don't believe in that.

And, by the way, thanks for proving pretty much every point about why there will never be world peace. You've succeeded in creating conflict where none existed just to stroke your ego and proclaim your happiness with greed.