It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by budski
reply to post by TheRedneck
Thanks, nice post, starred - I can see a key theme in all of the instances of fear that you mentioned.
It may be because of my management training that I spotted it, but anyway, all those instances can be said to boil down to one single fear:
Fear of Change.
the fear of death causes us to try anything to make absolutely sure that we will be saved by some doctor when we need him/her... even allowing a greedy and uncaring government to take over the process and in the end denying ourselves the thing we want.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
What do you fear?
Originally posted by sc2099
I think that despite your management training you've missed TheRedneck's point. I believe that he is saying that people are made to fear to bring about change, rather than being made to be afraid of change itself.
For example, in TR's example of terrorism, people are made to fear an invisible enemy to bring about curtailment of natural rights. Like TR said, people are made to fear guns to bring about a state of gun control. People are made to fear death to ensure that they spend ridiculous sums of money on pharmaceuticals. I'll even take this a step further and say that people are made to fear getting old so they spend their cash on plastic surgery and drugs like Viagara and Cialis, none of which even claim to improve health, only vanity.
TheRedneck said it best regarding socialized medicine:
the fear of death causes us to try anything to make absolutely sure that we will be saved by some doctor when we need him/her... even allowing a greedy and uncaring government to take over the process and in the end denying ourselves the thing we want.
It's only fear that makes people crave things they don't need, like for the government to take care of their health, their money, and their entire lives. But it's not fear of change, it's fear of the way things already are.
Originally posted by budski
reply to post by The Nighthawk
Which brings us full circle and back to greed and power.
While any attitude of "I'm OK jack, I got mine" exists we will stop any social advances and possibly evolutionary advances as a species.
A more polite way of putting your point across would have been asking me to clarify, rather than assuming I had missed something.
fear of change covers the whole spectrum of "fear" and "change" so in actuality I missed nothing.
What do you fear?
Many of those who are get it from companies that have a harder time competing in the global arena because of higher overhead from their health care costs vs. companies based in countries where health care is a government service. Single-payer health care will SAVE THIS NATION. But, people don't want to hear it, because it's just "socialist".
Just an aside for those against socialized health care: Have you ever been to a country that has it, and seen how happy those people are?
That's a load of bullcrap. Healthcare is a NECESSITY. If you don't believe that ask a diabetic who's in need of constant testing and insulin shots every day for the rest of their lives. People need healthcare, no if's, and's or but's, and too many people aren't getting it.
Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid.
Originally posted by The Nighthawk
This is a Society, and it's time this Society grew up and got with the program. Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid. Funny thing is, once you have it's you'll wonder how you ever got along without it.
[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]
Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by The Nighthawk
That's a load of bullcrap. Healthcare is a NECESSITY. If you don't believe that ask a diabetic who's in need of constant testing and insulin shots every day for the rest of their lives. People need healthcare, no if's, and's or but's, and too many people aren't getting it.
Too many people are getting too much healthcare. Cases in point, from people I have known or presently know very well:
- A good friend in his 50s was suffering from overwork (exhaustion). He went to a doctor for a checkup and was told he was a diabetic, requiring insulin. He went to another doctor for a second opinion. This doctor ran more intensive tests which determined he was not diabetic. He was also told by a doctor that had he taken a dose of insulin, he would have become diabetic. last I heard, he was still alive, about 5 years later. No health problems.
- My uncle, one of the strongest/toughest men I ever knew, was run over by a wagon and team of mules he was working with. He developed a muscle tear from that which caused him to have surgery, which was successful. After the surgery, he was weak and listless, and died a couple of months later. ghe was fine before he had the surgery.
- A great-uncle of mine lived alone and hadn't been to a doctor in probably 40 years. He wasn't sure of his age, but was in his 90s. He took no medicine, but he loved cigars, fried foods and gin. He eventually died at age 98, laying in a bedroom in his brother's house a couple of months after being diagnosed with stomach cancer. He was still smoking, eating fried foods, and drinking iced gin. He died with a smile on his face, after 98 years of active, happy, healthy life.
- My mother (in her 60s) was healthy until she was diagnosed with scholeraderma (sp?). After a few years, she does not have the symptoms of scholeraderma, but she does have a huge medicine bill every month, and is constantly having to be monitored for the medicines (not the disease). She is no longer active since going to the doctor, and experiences wide mood swings. She has also become a free-bleeder due to the Plavix.
- My aunt (70s) recently had a minor stroke and fell, fracturing her hip. In the hospital, she was found to be taking medications which the doctors said contributed to her stroke. She was taken off the medications and now is active and alert, where before she was lifeless and robotic.
- One of my daughter's friends (age 16) recently went to a doctor for a bad cough that was persistent. She was given prescriptions for over $200 worth of medication, more than her parents could afford. The doctor gave her samples to get her started. One of the medications caused such a major allergic reaction she has now been to the hospital three separate times for the reaction, and has to take allergy medication every four hours (day and night) for three to four weeks until the original medicine gets out of her system.
Sorry, but I don't want your healthcare. You go ahead and be the guinea pig all you want. Leave me out of it.
Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid.
Sorry, you do not control my costs. That is the problem, not the solution. Run your own life as you see fit, and if you do a very good job, maybe I and others will see fit to voluntarily follow you.
In the meantime, your fear is apparent. The fear of failing in that endeavor.
TheRedneck
Originally posted by sc2099
Originally posted by The Nighthawk
This is a Society, and it's time this Society grew up and got with the program. Civilization has a cost and it's only a matter of time before that cost has to be paid. Funny thing is, once you have it's you'll wonder how you ever got along without it.
[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]
I just have to address this one thing. Only benefits that are collectively shared should be collectively taxed. Defense is a benefit that is shared by everyone and so should be paid for by everyone. So are roads, sidewalks, parks, public works, etc. HOWEVER, healthcare is enjoyed by individuals. What I do to my health has no effect on what someone 50 miles away does to their health. My neighbor's good health has absolutely no benefit to me whatsoever and vise versa. So the cost of an individual's healthcare should be born by that individual.
Working together is great, but no man should willfully become the burden of his brother. Kind of makes brotherhood suck for everyone.
for every person you know whose life has been screwed up by bad medicine, there's twenty more whose lives have been saved
Originally posted by The Nighthawk
There's over 40 million of us asking that question right now in America, myself included.
It's time to regard health care as a right. A basic human right the same as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness--because without your health you have nothing else.
And just because you don't need it right now, and haven't yet, you're damn lucky. Your time WILL come.
[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]
And there's no better-paying jobs to be found? You're stuck working just to keep working, no health care, no hope, no future. Even getting more education won't help because you can't afford tuition, can't get a student loan and even if you did there's literally no jobs to be had when you graduate. What do you do?
Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by The Nighthawk
for every person you know whose life has been screwed up by bad medicine, there's twenty more whose lives have been saved
If that be true, then there are twenty families who have had all their family members saved with no screw-ups. That alone is reason to oppose socialized medicine. Any one of us could be that 'target family' next. Or, you could simply drop the conspiracy against me and mine and admit that health services do more harm than good more often than not. That makes more sense to me, but then again, I could be wrong.
As far as my fears, I have no fear of socialized medicine. I simply do not want to be imprisoned, which will be the result due to my impending refusal to submit my body to those I do not trust..
I fail to see how I could fear paying for healthcare, since I do so now, of my free will. While I am not satisfied with the present state of our health care, I have yet to see any US government program which operated in the best interests of the people. I will admit that the possibility of one someday doing so exists. I have never been one for such a long-shot gamble.
I agree with sc2099 above. Healthcare is a personal decision and and a personal benefit. The only part of socialized medicine I can agree with is a way to allow the poor or indigent to have the same access as the wealthy. I can get behind that idea wholeheartedly. I cannot get behind the idea of a government that has a well-proven track record of inefficiency and abuse being in charge of people's bodies.
Originally posted by sc2099
Originally posted by The Nighthawk
There's over 40 million of us asking that question right now in America, myself included.
It's time to regard health care as a right. A basic human right the same as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness--because without your health you have nothing else.
And just because you don't need it right now, and haven't yet, you're damn lucky. Your time WILL come.
[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]
Oh I see. The lack of healthcare is affecting you personally, so you're up in arms about the government not providing it. Meanwhile, you look down on people who do not want or do not need to become burdens to society for being selfish. You are the one who is selfish for wanting society to take care of you. Total Hypocrisy.
What else do you think is a right that people shouldn't be forced to pay for? Food? Maybe the next time I'm at the store I'll grab some steaks and tell them to bill the government because it's my right to eat. I don't think I'd get away with that, so why should people be able to steal from their countrymen in another regard?
And there's no better-paying jobs to be found? You're stuck working just to keep working, no health care, no hope, no future. Even getting more education won't help because you can't afford tuition, can't get a student loan and even if you did there's literally no jobs to be had when you graduate. What do you do?
What do you do? You move to where the economy is better. You get student loans and go to school. If you can't get one then save up to go to tech school. If a person is earning as little as you say, they should have no problem getting section 8 housing. Worst comes to worst, you ask for help from a charitable organization, or a church. The point is, whatever they do they do it themselves or with help that is volunteered, not stolen.
Originally posted by The Nighthawk
I guess by your logic the working poor should just accept there's no hope and kill themselves.
[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]
[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]
Originally posted by sc2099
Originally posted by The Nighthawk
I guess by your logic the working poor should just accept there's no hope and kill themselves.
[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]
[edit on 6/5/2008 by The Nighthawk]
That's funny, I believe that's your logic. Perhaps if there weren't so many taxes, businesses could afford to pay people more
and employees could keep more of their money, thereby lifting themselves out of poverty rather than waiting for the government to do it for them.
What makes you think people can't do things for themselves?
What makes you think everyone is so bloody stupid or helpless that they need someone to take care of them like a child? I don't think you're giving people enough credit.