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The EU is this what you want

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posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by Mikey84
Well I don't know, I'm not Aussie.
so i thought after i posted. i did edit.



My point is, comments from British people like “I’m sick of all these illegal poles” just shows they have no understanding of the EU at all.


so your suggesting that a person cannot understand the EU and be against a federal europe? or that they don't get it because they're brits, or they're just being nationalistic, what?

[edit on 9/12/08 by pieman]




posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:30 AM
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I could be wrong but isn't the EU political system where failed local party politicians go to be hidden from their sheeple voters until their treachery has been forgotten? I'm pretty sure its also a place where the NWO elite families introduce their children to the delights of the political gravy train see the Kinnock clan as an example.



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by kindred
I've got nothing against open borders or the underlying principles behind a unified Europe. Where I do draw the line is being governed by a blatantly corrupt government with fascist overtones that is non democratic and doesn't respect the civil liberties and freedoms of the people.


I agree with you. But the EU is not doing any of that, I agree that eventually one day the EU might be a super state, but would that really be so bad, England is already part of a superstate in a way, single currency and all.... it’s called the “UK”.

The USA started off as separate countries, and then formed a Union... that went well.

Australia was separate colonies; they joined to form a single country, that went well too.

It’s the people who don’t understand the EU who start screaming out silly propaganda and scaring people (if you just seen them trying to get a “NO” vote in Ireland) it’s no wonder people get paranoid and afraid.

At the end of the day we are all Europeans, and most want the same freedoms and to keep them. The EU is not as evil as you might think.

Mikey



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:31 AM
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Interestingly enough M. Kaku seems to believe the E.U. is the birthing of a type 1 civilization form of government, and same with the Euro as a currency.

Things are about uniting if you move forward, no? Not always trying to draw boundaries...it seems the latter is what causes the worlds wars and conflicts...


Anyway...

Peace

dAlen



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by Mikey84
I love how the British people bitch and moan about all the open borders and EU workers coming to their country (as they are allowed), but yet they fail to mention the thousands of Brits swamping France and Spain! (under the same freedom of movement acts).

It’s just more propaganda from Brits who don’t actually understand the EU and it’s concept – you know the type, always complaining about the illegal Polish, not realising that as EU citizens they are actually legal and can’t actually be illegal!

I'm all for the EU.

Mikey
[edit on 9/12/2008 by Mikey84]


You beat me to it, I was about to say the same thing and my family is one of those Brits that are swamping Spain. Mind you many are now returning to Britian because there's no work here for them and unlike Britian, it seems there's no help/aid for us even those of us that legally pay taxes and social security payments.

The biggest myth to the Brits seems to be telling them all the new laws and legislation is from Brussels. Here in Spain we still have a lot more freedom than in Britain and whenever we go back for a visit we're amazed at how much the country has new laws. As part of the EU the Brussels laws should be the same throughout but they're not.

I read the article in the OP's link and this bit was quite amusing as we've never heard of it.


From January 2006, it became illegal to repair your own domestic plumbing, electricals or even your own car.


We can still go and buy plumbing items from local and DIY stores and there's plenty of people that still tinker with their own cars - no arrests made.

Personally, we're questioning whether to stay living here in Spain (for various reasons) but we really don't want to go back to England because life there is so much more restricted than when we left 5 years ago. Maybe we can see it more because we're not living there but I am always amazed at the new laws/regulations that are in place and usually they're blamed on Brussels. If they come from Brussels then how come they're not enforced in the rest of Europe?



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by pieman

so your suggesting that a person cannot understand the EU and be against a federal europe? or that they don't get it because they're brits, or they're just being nationalistic, what?

[edit on 9/12/08 by pieman]


No, I’m suggesting that a lot of people behind the big Anti-EU campains and sites telling people how evil the EU is and how it’s going to control their whole life and ruin their whole country usually don’t understand the full concept of the EU.

I can see why people would be against a federal Europe..... loss of identity, but that wont nesacerily happen. Look at the UK, the passport says “British Citizen” weather you are from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland..... does that mean the Scotish or Welsh have lost their national identity? Not really, they are still Scottish and Welsh and always will be.

A Federal Europe (if it ever happens) is a long long time away.

Mikey


[edit on 9/12/2008 by Mikey84]



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:49 AM
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I wish people would stop saying that the truth is nothing but silly propaganda. We are simply telling it exactly how it is. What you have understand about us British, is that first and foremost we believe in democracy and freedom. Please enlighten me as how the EU is democratic. Being a law abiding citizen, why should I recognise a government that is so corrupt.

Would you willingly open a bank account with a bank if you knew that the bank manager was siphoning off funds from other peoples accounts into his own off shore account. You'd be an idiot if you did, that's for sure. This is exactly what the EU is like, but a lot worse. It's record on corruption speaks for itself. Please explain why I should be part of something that is so corrupt?

Please also explain, if the EU has nothing but my best interests at heart, then why from day one has it completely ignored the will of the people and set about forcing a constitution down our throats, that no one even understands, let alone wants. Excuse me for having some common sense, but this behavior is down right sinister.


I could go on, but you get the drift of I what I'm trying to say and what I stand for as a human being.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by kindred]



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:50 AM
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Originally posted by Mikey84
I can see why people would be against a federal Europe..... loss of identity,
Mikey

And that is what needs to happen...loss of identity.

The very people who cry for change, do not really want change. The only true change is within and the dropping of attachment to egoic identities.

Think about it...who is "a brit"?
Who is "Hungarian"?

People are soooooooooo mixed, its pathetic.

Turks, Austrians, Russians, etc. overthrew Hungary - the race here is mixed.
Same with other nations.

Time to get over the "Im a this", and "your a that".
It is so laughable the seemingly sincerity that comes from the masses for change, when they are the ones trying to stop it because they are afraid of "loss of identity."

Here are more examples.
"Im black"..are you? A lot of people in the spot light have a nice chunk of white blood as well...why identify with one side over the other?

More so, why choose one races 'pain body' over the other?
(i.e., the story of how your ancestors were mistreated and how a certain color or race owes you.) This stuff is old people. Time to grow up.

You know, funny how the God of the old testament regretted making 'man' and wiped them out with a flood. It wasnt due to their sin, but their petty squabbling....think about it. He got tired of baby sitting this planet, a bunch of adults wandering in the wilderness complaining for 40 years is a good pointer to how humanity acts as a species altogether.


So I invite all of you, to reclaim the power that is your own...quit depending or waiting for someone to do something for you. Live your own life, and let be the others. Things works itself out. Why get caught up in the duality of the moment?

...Oh, its fun...thats why. Life is a stage, and we want to make the best (or worst) of it, just because we can.


What I just said, will not change ONE persons mind in the least.
Peoples ways and paths are set...we are just fellow travelers sharing the road for awhile until it forks and we depart from one another.

If you get what is being said, then its something you already knew and it rings true to you.


Peace

dAlen



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by kindred
...if the EU has nothing but my best interests at heart, then why from day one has it completely ignored the will of the people

People who do not act out of consciousness do not really have a 'will' - they have stories that cause endless conflict.

You cant make one true choice, or change till you make it that far.

So, in a certain sense, until we grow up - these rules, laws, and governments are to guide us...and reflect, to a certain extent, the consciousness of humanity.

Peace

dAlen



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 08:03 AM
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reply to post by Mikey84
 


mikey, it's about more than identity, it's about self-determination. the people who can best govern my country are me and my countrymen.

i like europe as a loose association of economies that work in partnership.
i don't like europe that wishes to pass laws on my country based on value systems i don't share.

any system that wishes to change our constitution, any of our constitutions, in a way that i do not understand, for purposes that are unclear, is a system to far.

i understand what europe is supposed to be about, what i want it to be, and i am fair insulted that you are suggesting that i don't want federal europe for the sake of plain nationalism or a lack of understanding.

besides all of that, if every single irish politician says it's a good idea, it's a stupid idea. their track record speaks for itself.



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by kindred
What you have understand about us British, is that first and foremost we believe in democracy and freedom. Please enlighten me as how the EU is democratic. Being a law abiding citizen, why should I recognise a government that is so corrupt.


I don’t need to understand you British... I am British (and Irish). Yes you believe in democracy and freedom, as do most EU citizens..... Was it not the UK that made the UK National ID card mandatory and soon to be implemented? You didn’t vote for that did you? Now the UK is trying to push the EU to make it mandatory for all EU citizens to have one..... I’m still not seeing the EU as the evil one here? What democratic rights are you missing because of the EU? The EU believes in democratic rights and freedoms..... It was EU countries that continued to publish the cartoon pictures about Mohammed to show they have freedom of speech, from memory I remember the UK backed down in fear – again, a UK choice, nothing to do with EU


Originally posted by kindred
Would you willingly open a bank account with a bank if you knew that the bank manager was siphoning off funds from other peoples accounts into his own off shore account? You'd be an idiot if you did, that's for sure. This is exactly what the EU is like, but a lot worse. Its record on corruption speaks for itself. Please explain why I should be part of something that is so corrupt?


The EU is nothing like this; again, it seems more of a UK thing.


Originally posted by kindred
Please also explain, if the EU has nothing but my best interests at heart, then why from day one has it completely ignored the will of the people and set about forcing a constitution down our throats, that no one even understands, let alone wants. Excuse me for having some common sense, but this behaviour is down right sinister.


Well the reason for an EU constitution would probably be to eventually have a federal Europe, as I said before; would this really be a bad thing? It might actually be better for the UK, I mean look already you have laws that a lot of EU countries don’t have (mandatory ID cards with way too much details on them – that was your own government, not the EU).

Just look at Education, most EU countries also have free University Education, the UK doesn’t. Personally I think the EU as a federal country with the same laws and constitution as a whole would be better.

I’m just curious, how do you feel the EU removes your freedom and democratic rights?

Mikey



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by pieman
mikey, it's about more than identity, it's about self-determination. the people who can best govern my country are me and my countrymen.


At the moment you have a Scottish man who also the priminister of England, and Wales and NI etc. The UK was once separate countries and became united. You have a single currency, a single constitution, a single passport and single nationality. You are happy with that? What is the difference between that and the EU?


Originally posted by pieman
i like europe as a loose association of economies that work in partnership.
i don't like europe that wishes to pass laws on my country based on value systems i don't share.


If the UK just wants’ Europe as an association of economies then they should of done what Norway and Switzerland did. If the UK really wants’ to leave the EU they can (Greenland did), actually the Lisbon treaty was going to make it easier and have provisions for countries to leave the EU.


Originally posted by pieman
any system that wishes to change our constitution, any of our constitutions, in a way that i do not understand, for purposes that are unclear, is a system to far.


That is the whole point of a vote – it’s not the EU or Brussels’ fault that individual British citizens didn’t get to vote yes or no on the Lisbon treaty – it was your already established UK government that decided you wouldn’t get a vote. Ireland got to vote because it was in the Irish constitution that they had to – the EU had to respect this.

Every time an EU constitution has come up it has been rejected by some countries, simply because they are not happy with it (and rightly so). Has the evil EU enforced it? No, it’s tried to change it and fix it to make everyone happy, and it will continue to do so. Once everyone is happy it will come in.... that sounds pretty democratic to me, what’s wrong with that?


Originally posted by pieman
i understand what europe is supposed to be about, what i want it to be, and i am fair insulted that you are suggesting that i don't want federal europe for the sake of plain nationalism or a lack of understanding.


I’m not insulting you or saying that you are against a federal Europe because of nationalism, it was an example... I remember some people were against the euro because they would lose the queens head on the coins (they wouldn’t, but again... people who don’t understand).

In the end, we are all European.

Mikey



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by Mikey84
 



mikey84
I don’t need to understand you British... I am British (and Irish). Yes you believe in democracy and freedom, as do most EU citizens..... Was it not the UK that made the UK National ID card mandatory and soon to be implemented? You didn’t vote for that did you? Now the UK is trying to push the EU to make it mandatory for all EU citizens to have one..... I’m still not seeing the EU as the evil one here? What democratic rights are you missing because of the EU? The EU believes in democratic rights and freedoms..... It was EU countries that continued to publish the cartoon pictures about Mohammed to show they have freedom of speech, from memory I remember the UK backed down in fear – again, a UK choice, nothing to do with EU


Sorry ID cards are an EU directive and it's because of the EU, which is the reason why they are soon to be made compulsory.



A fresh row over ID cards has erupted after a leaked Home Office memo showed that the Government is trying to cover up the way the scheme is linked to new EU laws. The memo obtained by The Mail on Sunday reveals that ID cards are to be launched in 2009 as the timing fits in with passport changes in the rest of Europe. It says this is being kept secret for 'political reasons' - and because the Blair Government is copying the EU changes although it has the legal right to refuse. The disclosure comes in the middle of a tug-of-war between the Commons


www.dailymail.co.uk...



The EU is nothing like this; again, it seems more of a UK thing.


Talk about being in denial. The EU is corrupt, even more so than the UK government.

www.euractiv.com...



For the 14th year in a row the Court of Auditors has failed to approve the European Union's accounts. I suppose no one will be very surprised by this, but it really is an absolute scandal. Perhaps if one of the major net contributors to the EU threatened to withhold its cash unless the EU puts its house in order, something might change. Or then again, perhaps not. The European Parliament can huff and puff but it seems incapable to getting the Commission to take the necessary action


www.eu-corruption.com...
iaindale.blogspot.com...



Well the reason for an EU constitution would probably be to eventually have a federal Europe, as I said before; would this really be a bad thing? It might actually be better for the UK, I mean look already you have laws that a lot of EU countries don’t have (mandatory ID cards with way too much details on them – that was your own government, not the EU).

Just look at Education, most EU countries also have free University Education, the UK doesn’t. Personally I think the EU as a federal country with the same laws and constitution as a whole would be better.

I’m just curious, how do you feel the EU removes your freedom and democratic rights?


I don't know how many times I have to say this, but the EU is fascist. Watch the first video I posted of EU democracy in action, or should I say the lack of it. It's their way or the highway.

Why we should all be concerned.











[edit on 9-12-2008 by kindred]



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by Mikey84
At the moment you have a Scottish man who also the priminister of England, and Wales and NI etc. The UK was once separate countries and became united. You have a single currency, a single constitution, a single passport and single nationality. You are happy with that? What is the difference between that and the EU?
hey, little enough difference, a bunch of countries that are ruled from a central government without a whole lot of consideration for the wishes of those it presumes to rule. this is why they are ramming lisbon through.

given the fact that i'm irish, i don't really hold much faith with the whole british empire model, no matter how small it has shrunk. the english still presume to rule people that want nothing to do with them. this is wrong, fundamentally.


If the UK just wants’ Europe as an association of economies then they should of done what Norway and Switzerland did. If the UK really wants’ to leave the EU they can (Greenland did), actually the Lisbon treaty was going to make it easier and have provisions for countries to leave the EU.

you.......deep breath.
who exactly decides what the EU is or isn't? you? the politicians? no, it should be everybody. every european citizen.
you can forget about lisbon, it's not going to happen. ireland said no, ireland will say no again. you will not, not, not get the majority of irishmen to piss away their democratic right. it will not happen.


the EU had to respect this.
no it didn't, you know it didn't, the scumbags in leinster house and brussels have every intention of asking us to vote again and always did.


Every time an EU constitution has come up it has been rejected by some countries, simply because they are not happy with it (and rightly so). Has the evil EU enforced it?

lisbon is the constitution by other means, it just is, they are trying to force it as hard as they possibly can and if they can manage it in ireland they will have succeeded.


I’m not insulting you or saying that you are against a federal Europe because of nationalism, it was an example... I remember some people were against the euro because they would lose the queens head on the coins (they wouldn’t, but again... people who don’t understand).

In the end, we are all European.


in the end mikey, we are all dead, do i go and play with traffic to rush on the inevitable. in the end, i am a democrat, i believe in democratic self determination. the EU, as an institution, has set itself up to be anti-democrat. i will do all in my power to stop this happening.

and yes, by that i meant the same thing every other democrat meant by it, anything in my power. 80 years isn't all that long for everyone to have forgotten a lesson.

[edit on 9/12/08 by pieman]



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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The lisbon treaty WILL happen,Ireland will be forced to or you will be thrown out the EU,its that simple,the elites in brussels are not going back to the drawing board for yet more years...its going to go through i can betchya.



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:32 AM
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An interesting site in relation to this discussion is www.worldreports.org...
please look at the News Archive, most interesting!



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by Solomons
 


well then, we'll be out of europe. it will then be up to the citizens of europe to decide what they want to do about it.

we fought to get rid of the last lot that tought to rule us for a few hundred years, if this lot just go away, we'll feel it an easy victory.



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Mikey84

Originally posted by kindred
I've got nothing against open borders or the underlying principles behind a unified Europe. Where I do draw the line is being governed by a blatantly corrupt government with fascist overtones that is non democratic and doesn't respect the civil liberties and freedoms of the people.


I agree with you. But the EU is not doing any of that, I agree that eventually one day the EU might be a super state, but would that really be so bad, England is already part of a superstate in a way, single currency and all.... it’s called the “UK”.

The USA started off as separate countries, and then formed a Union... that went well.

Australia was separate colonies; they joined to form a single country, that went well too.

It’s the people who don’t understand the EU who start screaming out silly propaganda and scaring people (if you just seen them trying to get a “NO” vote in Ireland) it’s no wonder people get paranoid and afraid.

At the end of the day we are all Europeans, and most want the same freedoms and to keep them. The EU is not as evil as you might think.

Mikey



Totally agreed.

But I think no country can be forced to join the EU.
Anyway, corruption and failed politicians cannot only be found in the EU government - most governments are full of them...



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Solomons
 


well then, we'll be out of europe. it will then be up to the citizens of europe to decide what they want to do about it.

we fought to get rid of the last lot that tought to rule us for a few hundred years, if this lot just go away, we'll feel it an easy victory.


Ireland got the vote because its in their constitution to do so right? while the uk secretly just passed it without any word from the people...is it possible for them to change the constitution so the next time they can pass it through without a public vote? sounds outrageous,but hell you never know what these people will do...



posted on Dec, 9 2008 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by Solomons
Ireland got the vote because its in their constitution to do so right?


no, ireland got to vote because a citizen took the government to court to stop them changing the constitution without a referendum and won.

this is all doable elsewhere. take the government to court.




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