How Skeptics Confronted 9/11 Denialism

The article is wrong in one major regard, the conspiracy theorists did pull off one major conspiracy of their own. They somehow figured out that by renaming their madness "the Truth movement" and their conspiracy theorists "truthers," they could remove some of the automatically negative attitudes many Americans have towards them upon initial confrontation. This was a fascinating attempt at subtle brain washing akin to the type those same conspiracy theorists scream and moan about our government doing via the mainstream media. Unfortunately, at least for them, no matter how much lipstick and perfume you put on a pig, it's still a pig and still enjoys rolling around in crap.

reply to post by Seymour Butz


Really bizarre that a debunker would use this video.
I was horrified watching this.
I learned something new from this.
That the central core was still standing, after the outer part of the tower fell.
Ugh! To me, that puts the ball back in your court.
Now I would like a debunker explain to me, why that structure fell.
Why is it not there, today (not literally, so stop it).
If whatever forces that were acting to bring down the towers, was gone, why did it not continue to stand.
To me, this is just evidence to show that something other than a normal fire was at work here.
I makes me want to believe the theory that something disintegrated the steel.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Well since you wonder it: yes, we have considered how "unique" they are. Which is not very. Really the most unusual thing about them, was just how tall they were. And how much redundancy was built in, because the engineers were actively trying to avoid doing anything too daring or risky with such a large structure (largest in the world at the time).

The First Interstate Bank building had the exact same inner core/exterior column arrangement, except it was a lot smaller in most respects, suffered a much worse fire for a much longer period of time, but no real structural damage resulted. And so have a lot of other steel buildings with similar designs, called a "tube" design amount other things (which is also an inaccurate way of thinking of the structure).

I don't know where the idea came from that it's a "unique" design, unless you want to view every single building on the face of the Earth as "unique," which you certainly can if you want to be ridiculous enough.

I stand corrected about the unique as applied to this time. I meant unique as in for the time it was built.

The only explanation I can give is that since the First Interstate Bank was a fire only, its fire-proofing material was still intact and did its job very well.

The WTC had an airplane each fly into the towers (lets go with this and not go on the tangent of other theories as to what they were). Per the reports, this would have knocked off the fire-proofing as the debris passed through the building.

If it would have been a fire only in the WTC, then I'm sure it would have had no problems surviving it for much longer.

I just can't compare a large fire to a fire combined with the impact of an airplane. They're two different circumstances in my book.

Originally posted by Insolubrious
sounds like most of you 9/11 debunkers get your tips from the following video:

One of the best videos I've seen. Finally someone made a video that adresses the 9/11 Omission Report backers.

How they use internet boards like this to spread lies and disinformation. A handful of members here, fit the mold of this video to the tee, and must use it as thier handbook, and mantra.

I always love how they call us "truthers" as if it's an insult. "9/11 truther?" yes I am, we ALL should be debunkers, and skeptics alike, we all want the truth........,or do we?

[edit on 5-6-2008 by Nola213]

Originally posted by jthomas

False claim. The term "vaporize" can apply to the aluminum skin. Wreckage of all four planes was found and acknowledged. Why do you insist on believing and repeating falsehoods?

And where was that wreckage matched via serial numbers to the planes in question.... to this date I have not seen that. There is _NO_ proof the planes which are said to have impacted at any of the sites are even the correct planes.

When computer models cannot even generate the collapses and have to be adjusted beyond possible loads for a failure I begin to get suspicious. Moreso with the mountains of other discrepancies in the case of 9/11.

Originally posted by GhostR1der
And where was that wreckage matched via serial numbers to the planes in question.... to this date I have not seen that. There is _NO_ proof the planes which are said to have impacted at any of the sites are even the correct planes.

I beg to differ.

HERE IT IS

Might want to check the rest of the website and see if it answers any more of your questions.

It seems to me the fact that thier own government perputrated these crimes, and the wanton killings of thousands of Americans, for the sole reason to garner suppourt for a War in Iraq, and also to write new amendments to give the government MORE control over your liberties, thus takeing away your rights, little by little, it is just too scary for people like Jthomas and Swampfox, and co. to face.

For them Ignorance is bliss. Do not bother them with details or facts. They wish to live within a fake world where thier government actually gives two craps about them. Let them sheep, I mean sleep, for really, at this point I find them, and people like them of no use to the REAL American, who questions what thier Government (BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE) is doing.

I have nothing for them, and if I see them in a Police State prison, I will take thier jacket.

reply to post by Nola213

also to write new amendments to give the government MORE control over your liberties, thus takeing away your rights, little by little, it is just too scary for people like Jthomas and Swampfox, and co. to face.

Still waiting to hear what rights of mine I can no longer exercise......

reply to post by jthomas


By what physical property does even a plane's aluminum skin vaporize upon impact? What precedent is there? Where are the "vaporized" heavier objects such as seats and fabrics/textiles, eating utensils and, er, the freaking ENGINES?!! How does one photo of a dented tire rim (at the Pentagon) qualify as evidence of plane wreckage?

Ok. Jthomas I respect your opinions, but they are completely ridiculous and will never further humanity in any aspect.

What you "debunkers" are doing are just adhering to the official government story so blindly that you are willing to attack any opposition. You are just taking the easy way out. To ignore the obvious inconsistencies and fallacies in the official story and follow the rest of the herd.

First off, "truthers" do not assert that they know the truth. They are in search of the truth. They are actively seeking the truth as they believe that the official story is either flawed or completely bunk. They are the ones who notice that the official story is incredibly fishy, that the 9/11 commission was held under extremely sketchy circumstances, that the 9/11 commission report blatantly omitted facts that did not correlate with the official story, such as information about the collapse of Building 7, and so on, and they are the ones pushing for a real, actually independent investigation into the events of 9/11.

Though the "truthers" do not have much solid evidence (partly because all the major evidence has been suspiciously confiscated, such as the pentagon plane videos), they have done a great job pointing out each and every inaccuracy, and physical impossibility of the official story.

The biggest obstacle for "truthers" are not "debunkers", because "debunkers" are actually ignorant sheep with their heads far up their own asses. This explains why everything they regurgitate in every single debate is pure crap. In actuality, the biggest obstacle is the Mainstream Media, who actively condemns and portrays "truthers" as deviants, kooks, crazies, loons, and so on and so forth, which spawns "debunkers" who actually believe that they are on some sort of moral or intellectual high ground.

So although you (the "debunker") can attempt to debunk theories that are based upon the concept of a 9/11 conspiracy (such as US foreknowledge, or Zionist whatever), you never debunk the fact that the official story is bull#.

I hate to be cliche and quote the Matrix but,

"You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."


Intellectual discussions might be new and exciting for all you "debunkers" out there, but real intellectual discussion is for people who ask questions, not people who claim to have the answers.


edit-
I am sorry for the slay-mode. But seriously, Jthomas you deserve it for making a thread like this just to stroke your own ego.

Peace.

[edit on 5-6-2008 by italkyoulisten]

reply to post by Lightworth


The skin doesnt "vaporize" on impact. It melts when exposed to fire. As for the rest of your post. You can find more pics of wreckage than just the tire rim, it really isnt too hard.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by Nola213

 

also to write new amendments to give the government MORE control over your liberties, thus takeing away your rights, little by little, it is just too scary for people like Jthomas and Swampfox, and co. to face.

Still waiting to hear what rights of mine I can no longer exercise......

Well when the police break into your house, with no cause, other than you visit this site, and they "think" you could be a terrorist, you'll know. But that most likely wouldn't happen to someone in your position.

But for the average American, It's happening all over the country. War on Terror, War on Terror. They can use this premise to invade anyone's homes /business at any time any place. Like cops need "probable cause" to search you. The government doesn't. They just need some bit of info that you "might" be a terrorist. Let me tell you, they can find suitable enough info on anyone that makes them a possible terrorist.

When this country becomes a Police state, there will be people I know I can count on to do what needs to be done, what thier fore-fathers did that made this country what is WAS. The time is comeing, and it is obvious who's side you are on, and who side I am on.

BTW, are you feeling the gas prices? Since the war began in Iraq?(a direct result of 9/11) Food prices ect. To me these are also things (not neccessarily rights, but certain liberties I became accustomed to as a tax-paying American) that are being taken away from me and my family by the government since 9/11. No longer can we barely get by, we are in so much debt right now, thanks to Dubya, and his cronies, who all got rich off 9/11.

Yes 9/11 made the rich richer, and the poor, poorer. I'm sure the Bush and Bin Laden family were toasting thier success for many months after 9/11.

[edit on 5-6-2008 by Nola213]

Are you feeling the gas prices, Since the war began in Iraq?(a direct result of 9/11) Food prices ect. To me these are also things that are being taken away from me and my family by the government since 9/11. No longer can we barely get by, we are in so much debt right now, thanks to Dubya, and his cronies, who all got rich off 9/11

Then get off your dead a**, call your congressmen and tell them to enact some regulation on the market in regards to the futures speculators. Quit bitching about Bush and take some action to remedy the people who are actually responsible for the high oil prices.

reply to post by COOL HAND


A single, small part on the lawn huh. A lighting ballast.

typically have brass colored casing and are about 6x2x3 inches

Source

A part like that could be easily planted. Not to mention the pictures on that link showing where the wing supposedly went and the undamaged cable spools right in the flight/impact path.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
There were put options placed on both airlines that is true. However, if you bother to research the issue, the options placed the first-second week of September of 2001 were not the only times options were placed that year, nor were the total options placed the highest for that year. Further research would show you that BOTH airlines had made quite a few press releases in August/early September about poor performance. IF you were an options trader, you would have been silly NOT to place options on the airlines in August/early September.

Just figured I would do some quick research on this issue.
What seems important and telling about the option purchases is not necessarily the total volume of options placed in the weeks/days prior to the attack, but the ratio, of put to call options placed.


Following content from 911research.wtc7.net:

"A jump in UAL (United Airlines) put options 90 times (not 90 percent) above normal between September 6 and September 10, and 285 times higher than average on the Thursday before the attack.
-- CBS News, September 26
A jump in American Airlines put options 60 times (not 60 percent) above normal on the day before the attacks.
-- CBS News, September 26
No similar trading occurred on any other airlines
-- Bloomberg Business Report, the Institute for Counterterrorism (ICT), Herzliyya, Israel [citing data from the CBOE] (Chicago Board of Options Exchange)
Morgan Stanley saw, between September 7 and September 10, an increase of 27 times (not 27 percent) in the purchase of put options on its shares.
Merrill-Lynch saw a jump of more than 12 times the normal level of put options in the four trading days before the attacks."




[edit on 5-6-2008 by FewWorldOrder]

Originally posted by jthomas

There are no debunking "theories". There are only conspiracy theories.

That's right. Every theory is a conspiracy theory including the official story and the 9/11 Report. They all involved a conspiracy of someone with the intention of bringing those towers down. The only difference between any of them is the support from the media and government.

Originally posted by jthomas
The fact remains, as has been true since 9/11, that Truthers have nothing to go on. Zero.

Truthers have made no progress in convincing anyone that there is anything valid about their claims and speculations. They have only convinced each other.

That's right because once someone figures out that something is fishy they want the truth, they become a truther. I happen to know many people who have become truthers in the last two or so years.


Truthers are getting more attention than ever before lately which is why the movement keeps growing. You would claim that it doesn't? Where would you get data on that? All I know is that I meet people all the time who have just recently started to wonder about it and I see more and more videos, books, online, on television, etc.

Originally posted by jthomas
Debunkers can go away and Truthers will be left just where they are now: with nothing to show. Nothing will happen.

If you believe that then why don't you give it a try and see what happens?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
This statement is ridiculous.
Most people think that the government was negligent or worse, about 9-11.

This may or may not be true. Could you provide actual statistics to back up this statement or is it just your "feeling" ?

They really think, in high numbers, that the government is covering up something.

What are the numbers and what is the source that compiled those numbers?

For me anyway, the truther movement has really opened my eyes. I'm not 100% on one side of this debate or the other. Quite simply, I have no way of knowing the actual truth behind 911 and neither does anyone else.(other than those who actually committed the crime) I think the real debate here should be over unanswered questions and whether there should be a REAL investigation into 911.

I will continue to keep an open mind on this subject.

A part like that could be easily planted. Not to mention the pictures on that link showing where the wing supposedly went and the undamaged cable spools right in the flight/impact path.

So someone planted this?




Or this

John Ray's article claiming to win some kind of fantastical opprobrium for skeptics is quite laughable.
This confabulation of nonsensical "talking points" is a pathetic reminder of our simian past.
These people don't really care about truth, they're professionals,
So ATS members, don't waste your time.
The Truth will out!