Originally posted by Grambler
reply to post by jthomas
Hi! I'm one person who explained how Griff didn't contradict himself, and how his position is not logical. You can read my post again if you like. You didn't bother to address it, but as I stated in that post, I knew you wouldn't.
You say we need to prove our case, but you are 100% wrong. This is flawed for several reasons. First, we can hardly prove anything 100% when the government has destroyed or is witholding all of the evidence.
That is only your claim. There is, as we all know, sufficient evidence and that evidence has not been refuted.
Also, our social contract with the government entails that they should have to keep us safe.
The government, by the Constitution, is charged with providing for the national defense. There is nothing anywhere, in writing or logically that says the government or anyone can successfully do so.
Because they failed in this, they are obligated to tell we the people what went wrong, and then fix the mistakes.
Actually, they are not obligated. It is, however, in the national interest and logical to want to find out what went wrong and why. They did.
That means the Burden of proof is on the government, and if we can point out flaws in their story, then they should have to continue to investigate to find answers to those problems.
Again, they have no such obligation. Second, the government chose to initiate the NIST investigation and chose to initiate the 9/11 Commission. In addition we also have the FEMA reposts and the ASCE report on the Pentagon. In some total ALL of the investigations depended on massive, accumulated, evidence from hundreds upon hundreds of independent and government sources.
Now, those massive investigations - despite some flaws - are out there and demonstrate to the satisfaction of the vast majority of not only the American people, but to those qualified in structural engineering, forensic scientists, physicists, chemists, architects and other qualified investigators that bin Laden successfully plotted and caused Arab hijackers to hijack four jet airlines, three of which successfully completed their mission. In addition, the massive evidence also converges on the conclusion that WTC 1 and WTC 2 each collapsed as a result of the jet crashes AND subsequent uncontrolled fires; and that AA77 did in fact crash into the Pentagon.
Now, you don't like that fact. You say you have "unanswered" questions that call into question not only the events, but the causes, the perpetrators, the physics, the structural engineering, and so on.
Fine. Despite the fact that every "unanswered" question that has ever been asked has, in fact, been answered, addressed, debunked, or shown not even to be legitimate, and that no new questions have surfaced for years, you all persist in the same claims that the same "questions" are unanswered.
Fine. That is your ABSOLUTE right. But, given the massive evidence that is accepted as explaining what happened in the most massive investigations ever undertaken, and that nothing has been presented to refute that evidence, you cannot just claim, as you do, that anyone has the burden of proof to do anything different. YOU must back up your claims. YOU must demonstrate that you have any legitimate arguments or evidence to overturn the evidence and conclusions you reject.
No one is going to do your work for you. The burden of proof is entirely on your shoulders.
Therefore, all one must do is prove the governments story is flawed to warrant a new investigation.
Sorry, you all already claim it is flawed.
We try to prove theories using what little evidence we have, but we will never have 100% proof until the government lets us see the evidence.
And we challenge you to present any evidence, period. And we challenge you to demonstrate what you present is legitimate. As you well know, that has never happened.
You'll say the government is innocent until proven guilty, but the government making up a conspiracy and going to war over it.
Since none of you have presented any evidence to even make a claim that the government is even a suspect and that you must continually resort to post-hoc fallacies to "justify" your beliefs, it only points out WHY the burden of proof is on YOUR shoulders.
I say, the people we attacked should have been innocent until proven guilty.
Your statement rests on a post-hoc fallacy that B follows A, therefore B is because of A. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Just because Bush took us to war does not mean Bush created 9/11 to take us to war. YOU have to demonstrate. You haven't.
Now, lets go for a laugh here.
Your post is too sad for laughs. Ignorance is not bliss.
I'm going to pose two questions that you won't answer. This will be around the 25th time I've asked them without an answer, but here goes:.
f the government has nothing to hide, why not release the evidence, ...
Evidence can legally be withheld for many purposes. You know that. Your question is a classic red herring to divert everyone's attention AND to absolve you from having to deal with the existing known evidence that never originated with, nor was in control of, the government from minute one of the 9/11 attacks that form the foundation of ALL of the investigations.
Sorry to burst you last bubble, but your question has been addressed so many times it's hilarious that you think it's something new.
...and if you truly are a skeptic for the good of the people, why don't you look into the governments claims about Iran. You know they lied to us about Iraq, so they may try it again. You say your tired of the same old claims from truthers, but debunking us saves no lives, investigating Iran could save millions.
As a true skeptic, I have seen no demonstration from you what is happening in Iran or Iraq, justified or not, has one iota of evidence behind it to suggest Bush or our government had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks.
Again, it is just another demonstration of the need of 9/11 Truthers to latch onto any fallacious argument lacking any reason to try to connect out government to the 9/11 attacks.
Look forward to your next post where you'll pick out one nebulous line in one of our posts and yell about it, then call us all delusional, say we don't have evidence (which you think is important for us to release but not the government), then you'll say people are making attacks at you.
One again, I demonstrated the illogical thinking of you and your fellow truthers.
One last note. I would like to thank most of the debunkers here (not all) for your argumentative style, contradictory statements, and refusal to answer questions. You have manage to convince two of my friends that I have been trying to for years that something is fishy with 9-11, and there needs to be another investigation. I can't wait to show the rest of my friends how debunkers argue!
Sure. That will make you feel better to hide from reality, but I have a better solution. Instead of going around arguing illogically and claiming "there is something fishy", what you and your comrades really need to do is start asking questions - of yourselves. You need to follow the scientific method and try as hard as you can to disprove your own hypotheses and beliefs. And to do that, you need critical thinking skills.
Good luck. Remember, the burden of proof is, always has been, and always will be on YOU to demonstrate and prove your OWN claims. As long as you all continue to try and shift the burden of proof, as you and Griff have done, you're going nowher