A QUESTION for all the "believers"

One of the earliest frames of reference in life is the experience of pain. Pain alerts a living creature when something is threatening it. Pain equals bad, and likewise, pleasure is synonymous with good. Humans (and all creatures) figure this out very early.

From here it is not a stretch to imagine Mother Teresa did good because she gave people pleasure. Additionally, it seems logical that since Saddam Hussein caused others so much pain (physically and emotionally), he did bad.

Do you feel this is a clear indicator that God is showing us what to do and how to be? What is your honest answer?


Edit: changed title

[edit on 4-6-2008 by Scramjet76]

I am sorry, I don't have an awnser but I do have a point.

I was reading up on Catholic saints and many of them prayed to God to be able to suffer and feel the pain that Jesus suffered. Also according to the bible, God caused Job pain in order to test him. So I do think some believers equate pain as a test of God and therefore don't neccesarily see pain as bad.

What about when an emergency requires amputation or excision without narcosis? Is the pain caused in that situation "evil"?

reply to post by snowflake_obsidian

So I do think some believers equate pain as a test of God and therefore don't neccesarily see pain as bad.

So if an individual lives a life of relative ease and does good, how does this compare to an individual who finds himself born into painful circumstances which causes them to commit "bad" acts? Why then does God test some, but others not?

Sorry, hate to ruin your fun, but life is not a test.
Where do you get that from, exactly?
And why would you think that "believers" necessarily subscribe to such a notion?
Do you think God created man in order to test them?
Look, whatever test may or may not have been, is over.
Period.
We are not here to be tested.
We are here because we were born.
If you accept Jesus, you can be born again.
Jesus has been given the authority over who can and can not continue on.
I can not tell you by what criteria Jesus makes these determinations.
But the fact is that we are, without some sort of Divine intervention, doomed to go to our grave, regardless of what happens in our life.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Sorry, hate to ruin your fun, but life is not a test.
Where do you get that from, exactly?

Oh how can you say this when so many religious folks suscribe to the concepts of "right" and "wrong?"

We are here because we were born.
If you accept Jesus, you can be born again.

I take this to mean one can have any thoughts or commit any action with no regard to right and wrong? The only important thing is accepting Jesus. Is this your view?

Since you are the person who started this thread, and I went ahead and put some negative sounding post on it, I should have the decency to answer your response to my post.
Awfully long sentence.
There are certain ways of looking at religion.
What we end up with is not necessarily all that similar to what we started with.
There is a tendency for establishments to have rules of conduct, to prevent chaos and keep order and maintain a level of respectability.
So churches fall under that category, so you have to expect that sort of thing.
The way Paul would talk about things, in his letters, preserved in the New Testament, he seemed to have the attitude that certain people were beyond redemption and we should avoid them.
Since we do not all have direct communication with Jesus, Paul had to lay out some guidelines for us to use to make a judgment as to who we should have associations with.
The law was given to help people to get along in life.
God added some more particular laws concerning the worship of Himself, as part of forming a national identity. Infractions of these were taken to be something that had to be punishable.
Paul introduces us to a new concept, one that is global and not based on a limited geographical location and racial make-up.
The whole salvation thing is not based on a set of rules.
People who are saved tend to want to be better people.
But all this breaks down once people think that being good makes them worthy of their salvation.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Here's something to ponder on:

3:5.5 The uncertainties of life and the vicissitudes of existence do not in any manner contradict the concept of the universal sovereignty of God. All evolutionary creature life is beset by certain inevitabilities. Consider the following:

1. 3:5.6 Is courage —strength of character—desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

2. 3:5.7 Is altruism —service of one's fellows—desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.

3. 3:5.8 Is hope —the grandeur of trust—desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.

4. 3:5.9 Is faith —the supreme assertion of human thought—desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

5. 3:5.10 Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

6. 3:5.11 Is idealism —the approaching concept of the divine—desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.

7. 3:5.12 Is loyalty —devotion to highest duty—desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.

8. 3:5.13 Is unselfishness —the spirit of self-forgetfulness—desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

9. 3:5.14 Is pleasure —the satisfaction of happiness—desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.


I believe that since we are not created perfect beings having the inherent ability to choose good, we have to be exposed to contrastive realities to be able to wisely choose good and value it as every other positive thing too...

Alexandros

well firstly to Jdewey.. life is sort of a test... You cannot be a bum and make it into heaven, you just cannot slip into this prefect kingdom without being tested.. God was tested and so are we..

and as for the gospel not being set on a list of rules.. Our faith is set on love and rules.. why? because God is like a real father to us.. When I was a kid my real dad gave me many rules, most of them I didn't like but later on I found out the help build my character today...

My mom an the other hand gave us whatever we wanted, we walked all over her and didn't respect her and she treated us and gave us everything to keep us happy yet without discipline... which caused un countable problems in me and my brothers life..


the ten commandments are just simple little rules like a dad would give you that is for our own good..

and think about paying for sin.. When you get in trouble with a mother or dad on earth, what happens? they either beat the daylights out of you or punish you/// This is what God does and that's why sin is punished and accounted for or esle God would be less discipline then our earthly parents..

he cares and that's why he does what he does and so he gave us rules..

People say, I want to be free... Yea so what does that mean? Go rob a bank then. Go shoot someone then.... Go cheat on your wife... Go beat someone up for no reason..

you see people who say they don't want rules live by rules everyday no different then the commands because they live a life of love.. people don't understand that God is not saying don't enjoy your life, he is saying abide by my rules for your own good and a perfect world...


as for the original post...

Suffering brings much good but only if a soul knows what to do with it and offers it up to God for sins...

like being poor... I know that we went through many times where we had no food in the fridge... and when you actually get some you really appretaite it.... it's like a postivie from a negative...

Like when I have a headache... It hurts like crazy without asprin... yet when it's gone you are so grateful and it's just unexplainable...

suffering can bring so much good to the soul because it humbles you out..


peace.

reply to post by JesusisTruth


wow, misogyny much?

most mothers i know are closer to drill sergeants than they are to carpets...

seriously, that's the sort of 50s leave it to beaver type of lie that really has no place in society today.

reply to post by JesusisTruth


Too bad the salvation train passed you by.
I hope you catch on, eventually.
The gospel?
You talk about the gospel being based on rules?
How about the gospel being based on throwing away all the rules?
You personally were able to improve your life, from a disadvantageous position.
So an identical person to yourself, who for whatever reason, did not manage to end up with as impressive a list of achievements as yourself, does not pass the test?
We are all sinful beings and that is why we are not given the authority to judge others.
We should exorcise what choices we do have in order to improve ourselves, just for the greater good of mankind, but,that having been done, does not qualify us for entering into that perfect place.
We are all admitted to that place, despite having failed whatever "test" there may be to keep out the riff-raff.
Our ticket in is the one name that we need for our salvation because he did pass the test and entered before us to prepare a place for us.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Jdewey.. I have no acheivements.. I am far from perfect brother,,

" You talk about the gospel being baised on rules "

No brother I said it's baised on love and rules...

" god passed the test "

yes and he wants us to too in our own special way...



Madness..

women hatred?

My mother was I honest to God am not lying, was the exact opposite of a drill sergeant... but that's besides the point...

This happens all the time with parents who let their kids walk all over them, it happens, and it happened to me when i was a kid.. like I said I would throw things at my mother when I was a kid, she didn't beat us or nothing, she's just innocent and not stern..

My dad on the other hand I was sacred beyond measure of, and this brings up another thing that a (holy) fear of God is good and a good sign of respect...

and about the 50 cleaver whatever that show was called..

there was alot more innocence back then, I am like someone out of those days now, not when i was younger..

peace.

reply to post by JesusisTruth


Sorry about that.
I kind of woke up this morning thinking I should make my statement a little understandable.
I do not mean that you are not saved.
What I should have said was you missed the point.
The point is pretty basic, that we all fail, one way or another.
I should not use you as an example, but you kind of open yourself to being used.
What I mean is that you have a right to be proud of your self, for making your life worthwhile when it could have easily gone the other way.
I guess I am trying to deal with the original post.
I think about it a certain way.
Like the OP but not exactly in those terms.
Anyone who is sitting around and reading posts on forums, on the Internet, are better off than at least half of the rest of the world.
OK, so, we have our own standards of achievement that we can judge ourselves, or others, against.
But, what about people who are born in a situation that they may or may not have a chance to have enough food to get to the age of three?
How can we judge them?
It is impossible for us to even think about.
We have lives, and opportunities, and we can look at how they worked out and feel pretty good about ourselves.
We have to think, That has to count for something, right?
It is a trap that even the best of theologians fall into.
That you want to carry something of your own life into the judgment.
Imagine being in the court of heaven.
You stand there and claim that you are covered by the blood of Christ.
Then you think, Hold on, there is this one spot that I think can show, that will make me look good.

[edit on 8-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

Our ticket in is the one name that we need for our salvation because he did pass the test and entered before us to prepare a place for us.

So we all are sinners and regardless of how we conduct ourselves anyone can get "admitted" to the "perfect place" after death.. The only thing we have to believe is Jesus was God who died for our sins? If we honestly believe that we're in like flynn... am I understanding you right jmd??