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Report: Blackwater buys Brazilian-made fighter plane

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posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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I'm probably going to get bashed for this BUT why is everyone so down on Blackwater? What have they done to you? Did they break into your home and beat you up?

My ring tone on my phone is the Doobie Brothers "Blackwater." Coincidence?? Humm

They are over in a country that loves to kill Americans. They were being fired upon so they defended themselves. Yes it's sad that innocent people were killed. You can't - I know I can't - imagine what was going through their minds when the scenerio unfolded. I dunno maybe I'm wrong.




posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by Lone Star Patriot
 


It's because the creation and funding of a private para-military force by our government creates a dangerous situation. Yes, the company can be used benevolently, but there exist many ways in which it can be used nefariously and in ways that our constitution was meant to prohibit.

Our military was never intended to be engaged against US citizens, but with Blackwater (and many other similar groups) the government has a tool which (in certain situations) could be used to intimidate it's own citizens. Many times in past history, governments have created para-military forces and turned them against their own populations. In these previous examples, many people have found cause for great concern.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by SystemiK
 
I understand; but I truly don't think that would happen. If they were to be used against US citizens I feel it would be in a disasterous situation - such as rioting during a martial law situation. In that case they would have just cause. Don't you think?



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by Lone Star Patriot
I'm probably going to get bashed for this BUT why is everyone so down on Blackwater? What have they done to you? Did they break into your home and beat you up?


Not to me personally, BUT, there are documented cases of abuse by Blackwater's "troops", some of which are still under investigation:


The U.S. State Department and the FBI are investigating the incident.

Survivors told harrowing stories of being shot at by the guards despite presenting no threat. The FBI has been in the process of speaking to the survivors.

The first U.S. soldiers to arrive on the scene after the incident told military investigators they found no evidence contractors were fired upon, a source familiar with a preliminary U.S. military report told CNN.

The soldiers found evidence suggesting the guards fired on cars attempting to leave and found weapon casings on the scene matching only those used by U.S. military and contractors, the military source said.


Source

They have been deployed in New Orleans. This from September 2005:


Officially, Blackwater says its forces are in New Orleans to "join the Hurricane relief effort." A statement on the company's website, dated Sept. 1, advertises airlift services, security services and crowd control. The company, according to news reports, has since begun taking private contracts to guard hotels, businesses and other properties. But what has not been publicly acknowledged is the claim, made to us by two Blackwater mercenaries, that they are actually engaged in general law enforcement activities including "securing neighborhoods" and "confronting criminals."

That raises a key question: under what authority are Blackwater's men operating? A spokesperson for the Homeland Security Department, Russ Knocke, told the Washington Post he knows of no federal plans to hire Blackwater or other private security. "We believe we've got the right mix of personnel in law enforcement for the federal government to meet the demands of public safety," he said.

But in an hour-long conversation with several Blackwater mercenaries, we heard a different story. The men we spoke with said they are indeed on contract with the Department of Homeland Security and the Louisiana governor's office and that some of them are sleeping in camps organized by Homeland Security in New Orleans and Baton Rouge. They told us they not only had authority to make arrests but also to use lethal force.


Source


My ring tone on my phone is the Doobie Brothers "Blackwater." Coincidence?? Humm


Trying to tell us in a roundabout way you work for them?


They are over in a country that loves to kill Americans.


*sigh* No, they're in a country that America is occupying, which if you understood anything about Middle Eastern culture means Americans are "fair game"--the only thing folks over there hate more than competing tribes is occupiers, regardless of what nationality the occupiers are. Iraq is in the middle of a civil war with too many factions to reliably count. The Iraqis our troops train today to handle security will shoot at them tonight on patrol. It has nothing to do with our being American. Let me repeat that:

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR BEING AMERICAN.

It's because they don't want occupiers there. ANY occupiers. It wouldn't matter if they're Americans, French, Russian or Saudi, occupiers are occupiers, and the enemy of all.

Would we really be any different were the situation reversed?


They were being fired upon so they defended themselves. Yes it's sad that innocent people were killed. You can't - I know I can't - imagine what was going through their minds when the scenerio unfolded. I dunno maybe I'm wrong.


According to accounts thus far, you are. More info about Blackwater's operations is surfacing all the time, and in many situations such as the one I noted above there is ZERO evidence that Blackwater's people were fired upon.

Aside from all this, there's the simple fact that there's something un-American about taxpayers funding "private contractors" to do work our military traditionally is supposed to handle on its own. Blackwater, and others, are there for several reasons: To manage support jobs for the real military so more troops can be put on the line without instituting a Draft; to take over protection duties for State Department diplomats and others; and to be used for operations "official" American soldiers can't be caught doing.

They get a free pass to conduct activities real soldiers can't get away with due to the Geneva Conventions.

They are not beholden to the UCMJ.

They take no oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, like real soldiers do.

There was a time when the idea of "mercenaries" (which is what Blackwater personnel really are) was relegated to men's fiction books, fringe publications like Soldier of Fortune Magazine, and banana republics who would hire ex-soldiers to beef up their own forces. Now mercenaries are "accepted" as a "vital" component of DoD planning and strategy.

Does anyone else see a problem with this?



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by The Nighthawk
 
Humm, OK if they are so evil then why are they still around? What can we do about it?



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by Lone Star Patriot
reply to post by The Nighthawk
 
Humm, OK if they are so evil then why are they still around? What can we do about it?


They're around because like most companies who do things they shouldn't, Blackwater contributes heavily to the right people's campaigns and those people in turn invest in Blackwater to profit from the very same contracts they sign off on.

It's a huge conflict of interest and most rational people would consider it a clear breach of ethics but there's no enforcement.

Also, thus far the military and Congress have not as yet decided how Blackwater should be held accountable for actions they take, since as I said before, they are not beholden to the UCMJ.

They're in a legal "grey area" where there's no way to enforce the law because nobody is entirely sure what the law is or should be or whose responsibility enforcement is.

Who do you arrest? What court oversees the trial? Civilian courts? Military tribunals?

Basically they are allowed to exist because the people we elect to prevent this kind of thing aren't doing their jobs, and in many cases are raking in money from it.

The very fact that there exists a company, privately-owned and operated, with weapons and equipment to rival the standing Army (at least in terms of personal weapons), that has NO official ties to either the DoD or the Justice Department, and yet can be hired as desired to work for both without reliable oversight and can and has been used against United States citizens, should be enough to cause any patriotic American real concern.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 12:59 PM
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Blackwater do a hard job in a hard environment. They are a fantastic PMC company with great assests and ability.

They have recce teams, they have int assests, they have helicopter evac capability for wounded and have many times been at the scene and assisted American ground forces who needed extra guns on target.

Yes they get paid more, yes they have a free reign, but at the end of the day, when in hell you use all the water you got to put out the fires.

as for them being used on mainland America - No bloody way. Thats an overstep too far. Army yes, private PMS companies acting as police ? nope, totally disagree.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:03 PM
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www.youtube.com...

Tucano bad boy in action over colombia with the Colombian armed forces. As you will see it is no slouch on ground attack missions and will cause bloody havoc for and against ground assests.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Dan Tanna
as for them being used on mainland America - No bloody way. Thats an overstep too far. Army yes, private PMS companies acting as police ? nope, totally disagree.


But that's the problem. They HAVE been used here in a policing function.



By Griff Witte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 8, 2005

Companies in the Gulf Coast area hit by Hurricane Katrina are turning to an unusual source to protect people and property rendered vulnerable by the storm's damage -- private security contractors that specialize in supporting military operations in war-torn countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

The mission is to guard against looters, not fend off coordinated insurgent attacks. But the presence of the highly trained specialists represents an unusual domestic assignment for a set of companies that has chiefly developed in global hot spots where war, not nature, has undermined the rule of law.

Source



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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Yeah I pointed that out earlier in the thread and it is a dangerous precedant.

They are not law enforcement officers they are private military contractors who are former special forces / marine recon / SEAL / SFOD-D operators at the sharp trigger pulling end.

That is not a group that are going to tread softly in any given situation. Thats a bad thing.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by SystemiK
 
Explain to me why that was a bad thing?

I live on the gulf coast, trust me, they were badly needed. If you had been through the situation you might think differntly about using Blackwater.

I HAD to, mandatory, exacuate for hurricane Rita. They were estimating 100' flood surges. ONE HUNDRED FEET. That would have wiped my entire town out. All I could think was "my God when we get back our home is going to be completely gone." Think about it: if there is a situation where your home is subseptuble to being looted - and you aren't there because you have no say in the matter - wouldn't you want some kind of protection?

Not to mention I had a one week old baby. It took use THREE hours to cover what was normally 10 minutes of road. This was a situation that had all of the local athorities under tremendous stress and very short handed. Organizations like Blackwater are very useful for these types of scenerios. I'm not saying what they did in Iraq, in anyway, was right. However if they can help in the US during a time of crisis then why not utilize them?

I'm not bashing you I am just trying to understand why it would be bad to use them for something like this. Granted considering the current setup they need some kind of regulation and a system put in place should they take advantage of their "authority".



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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To me it seems like a bad idea to contract out military services, especialy domestically.

Lone Star, in your situation, i would much rather have seen us mobilize the Texas National Guard instead of Blackwater.

I am going to tell you one thing: if i were to come across someone sporting a weapon, i am going home to get my weapon. Not to attack, but to defend. And after hearing what Blackwater has done in Iraq, it gives me a little more impetus.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:36 PM
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Explain then why a PMC company had to be used not say, another set of agents / officers from a designated real law enforcement agency ?

There are enough law enforcement agencies that to use Black water trigger pullers who have little or NO law knowledge is tantamount to saying any joe blow can grab a gun and patrol the streets in a disaster as long as he has a company that supplies PMC personell to war zones.


Your experience was bad, i don't doubt that, but a SEAL / SOFD-D / Marine Recon trigger puller from Blackwater is NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.

In a disaster military units are used i.e. national guard and regular units yes, but again they are from the government, for the government, and not some private armed group.

It would be like sandline being used here in the UK when we had the floods down south.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
To me it seems like a bad idea to contract out military services, especialy domestically.

Lone Star, in your situation, i would much rather have seen us mobilize the Texas National Guard instead of Blackwater.

I am going to tell you one thing: if i were to come across someone sporting a weapon, i am going home to get my weapon. Not to attack, but to defend. And after hearing what Blackwater has done in Iraq, it gives me a little more impetus.


If i was in your shoes i'd do just that.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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A plane of this sort can stay on station and provide close in support for a much longer period than any jet. During the S.E. Asian war the U.S. Air Force used prop driven Sandies as support for downed pilot rescues with great success. Enlisted Marines directed air support missions from the ground and relied heavily on OV-10 Broncos to suppress enemy fire while waiting for the fast movers to arrive on station. For ground support against enemy in the open, I would have been happy to have had the kind of support offered by this little plane.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by Lone Star Patriot
Organizations like Blackwater are very useful for these types of scenerios. I'm not saying what they did in Iraq, in anyway, was right. However if they can help in the US during a time of crisis then why not utilize them?


If the National Guard and a lot of their equipment wasn't thousands of miles away being used to occupy a foreign land that wasn't a threat, they'd have been there to help, as they should be.

It's not only ex US miltary, Special Forces, SEALS that are being hired, there are also a lot of personnel from other places with much lower levels of human rights.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by Lone Star Patriot
reply to post by SystemiK
 
Explain to me why that was a bad thing?

I live on the gulf coast, trust me, they were badly needed. If you had been through the situation you might think differntly about using Blackwater.

I HAD to, mandatory, exacuate for hurricane Rita. They were estimating 100' flood surges. ONE HUNDRED FEET. That would have wiped my entire town out. All I could think was "my God when we get back our home is going to be completely gone." Think about it: if there is a situation where your home is subseptuble to being looted - and you aren't there because you have no say in the matter - wouldn't you want some kind of protection?


Well, frankly, you couldn't pay me enough to live in a hurricane zone in the first place. Not to say you're wrong for doing so, but it wouldn't be my choice.

As for your home being looted, well, there's something to be said for preparation; having the stuff you can't leave behind such as pictures, etc. backed up on DVDs is a good idea, and having an emergency kit that can include those small things you can't do without and can't stand to lose is an absolute necessity.

Everything else is just stuff. Yeah, it's stuff you worked hard for, but stuff nonetheless. Leave it behind and hope your insurance pays it off (which many homeonwners, to their horror, got the short end of the stick on after Katrina).

Your home has as much chance of being looted under security as it does without, depending on the cleverness of the looters. and, who's to say those mercs you're trusting your home to won't loot it themselves?


Not to mention I had a one week old baby. It took use THREE hours to cover what was normally 10 minutes of road. This was a situation that had all of the local athorities under tremendous stress and very short handed. Organizations like Blackwater are very useful for these types of scenerios. I'm not saying what they did in Iraq, in anyway, was right. However if they can help in the US during a time of crisis then why not utilize them?


Because they're outsiders. They have no real stake in protecting anything. Because their only loyalty is money they cannot be trusted. Whatever happened to deputizing members of the community and equipping them to do their own policing? If something happened in my town and we needed to evacuate I'd gladly offer my services over trusting "contractors" any day of the week.


I'm not bashing you I am just trying to understand why it would be bad to use them for something like this. Granted considering the current setup they need some kind of regulation and a system put in place should they take advantage of their "authority".


That system does not exist, and there's no telling how long it will be before it does. My position is that they should not exist, PERIOD. They have too much firepower concentrated in the hands of people with no loyalties besides cold, hard cash.

There's legitimate debates burning across this country right now over arming sworn police officers with military weaponry. If arming professional law enforcement officers who live in the very community they are sworn to serve and protect (whether or not they overstep their boundaries) is cause for serious concern, why is it automatically okay to have a private company with even more firepower doing the job?



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 
Heeeyyy buddy!!


I agree and they were here. BUT, like I said most of the guard is over seas so there weren't that many here to help.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by The Nighthawk
 
In reply to a few of your comments. I can see how most people would question living in the area I do. My family has lived here for hundreds of years. I couldn't imagine being anywhere else. Lucky I've been on this Earth for 38 years in the same area and have only endured one hurricane. Thank the Lord Rita totally missed us!
I think the same thing about people who live where there are quakes.


As for all the preparing you mentioned that is a given.
Every year when hurricane season starts they start drilling it into our .s about what we should do to prepare. I do know that after Rita I will NOT evacuate again!! The dang thing went right where we had evacuated to and didn't touch my town. We were without power for a few days but I can deal with that.
I'll load up on the neccessities, beer and, amo then ride it out.


As for Blackwater I guess I'm being naive when I think they would do what they are paid for. For instance - police are paid to serve and protect right? Not all of them are on the up and up though. Some are just as bad as the criminals they put behind bars. BUT, that is a very small fraction. For the most part they have a job they get paid for so they do it well. The better they are at their job the more promotions and money they will get.

I find it hard to think that a former military officer would shrug his duties -
duties he's being compensated for VERY well - to become a some kind of rebel militia fighter. Again I could be way off. I just think if there is a group of men that consist of former SEALS and special forces it would be a waste not to utilize that kind of prowess. Maybe I'm trying to hard to find a positive with the situation??

You are right though. It's a dangerous situation with out some kind of regulation. Regulation that will probably not happen.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Lone Star Patriot
reply to post by The Nighthawk
 
In reply to a few of your comments. I can see how most people would question living in the area I do. My family has lived here for hundreds of years. I couldn't imagine being anywhere else. Lucky I've been on this Earth for 38 years in the same area and have only endured one hurricane. Thank the Lord Rita totally missed us!
I think the same thing about people who live where there are quakes.


Yeah, my fiancee wants to move to Frisco... Aside from the high cost of living I'm not sure I want to be there when the Big One hits.


As for all the preparing you mentioned that is a given.
Every year when hurricane season starts they start drilling it into our .s about what we should do to prepare. I do know that after Rita I will NOT evacuate again!! The dang thing went right where we had evacuated to and didn't touch my town. We were without power for a few days but I can deal with that.
I'll load up on the neccessities, beer and, amo then ride it out.


If they give you a choice you'll probably be a lot better off



As for Blackwater I guess I'm being naive when I think they would do what they are paid for. For instance - police are paid to serve and protect right? Not all of them are on the up and up though. Some are just as bad as the criminals they put behind bars. BUT, that is a very small fraction. For the most part they have a job they get paid for so they do it well. The better they are at their job the more promotions and money they will get.

I find it hard to think that a former military officer would shrug his duties -
duties he's being compensated for VERY well - to become a some kind of rebel militia fighter. Again I could be way off. I just think if there is a group of men that consist of former SEALS and special forces it would be a waste not to utilize that kind of prowess. Maybe I'm trying to hard to find a positive with the situation??


See, what worries me is, I've known some of these folks. In my experience ex-Special Forces types, the REAL ones (lots of people like to pretend) largely (but not always) fit into a few of categories:

Guys who quit because they feel remorse for the things they've done as a soldier and refuse to go anywhere near guns or the Service again.

Guys who are bat-manure crazy and super gung-ho, and looking for more thrills than the Service, with its strict rules and regulations, can provide. Combat addicts who want a free hand, basically.

Guys who left the service for one reason or another, and have realized that once you've spent most of your adult life training to be a human killing machine, and using those skills on anyone you've been ordered to, there aren't a whole lot of other job options out there. Sure, there's law enforcement, but the pay compared to mercenary work with Blackwater frankly sucks, and the daily grind of civilian life under supervision of civilian authorities holds no joy.

Given the experiences I've had with these guys, I have little faith that many of them still hold to the ideals of service they swore to uphold as soldiers. Many even feel like their time was wasted, and are bitter towards the traditional Services.

And remember, not all Blackwater troops are ex-soldiers. There's assorted ex-cops, wanna-be SpecOps guys, gun nuts, etc. As long as they fit the requirements they're in. And, also understand not all Blackwater employees are American. A growing number are recruited from foreign countries, thus they have no loyalties to the USA and its citizens whatsoever.


You are right though. It's a dangerous situation with out some kind of regulation. Regulation that will probably not happen.


And that's the real scary part. Even if there is regulation, how do police arrest a force of men who are better-armed than they are when something really bad happens?



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