Minn. mom fights church ban on her autistic son

6 feet tall!!?
Here I thought I would be getting into some interesting legal issue and controversy but this is so obvious.
Autestic, mentally distrubed and dangerous, etc.... it comes down to safety. Sorry. Remember Lenny from Mice and Men? I'm...I was Catholic, and if my child got beaten by "Lenny" I would sue the Catholic church for as much as I could.
Are some of you saying that they should wait until this really happens before doing something about it?
They could make arrangements for a priest to come to their house and give mass. That is the acceptable compromise. If the family doesn't like that then too bad, find another church.
This issue is so moot as far as my Christian self goes.

Has the church PROVEN any of it's allegations yet or are people just assuming he's guilty based on his autistic label?

this has been talked about in this thread as well.
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

....Adam, who stands taller than six feet and weighs more than 225 pounds.....

According to Walz, Adam struck a child during mass, nearly knocks elderly parishioners over when he hastily exits the church, spits and sometimes urinates in church and fights when he is being restrained.

He also one time assaulted a girl by pulling her onto his lap and, during Easter mass, ran to the parking lot and got into two vehicles, starting them and revving the engine, Walz alleged.

There were people directly in front of the car who could have been injured or killed if he had put the car in gear," Walz wrote.

Adam's parents have to sit on him and sometimes tie his hands and feet to get control of him, Walz wrote.

kstp.com...

No offense to the person working at Burger King, but Adam is focused there on the food, it is easier to control him there. I speak from witnessing such behavior at my friend's school, severely autistic kids are much easier to control when they have a task to work on. Eating would definetly be one.

I have a friend who works in an autistic program, he is 6 foot 3 and over 300 pounds and he has a hard time controlling his students at times. I have witnessed him get thrown to the floor by a 16 year old like he was an old lady. I seriously doubt Adam's parents can control him when he gets worked up. I'm sure they try, but trying isn't enough in certain social situations.




[edit on 2-6-2008 by pavil]

I stand by the witness statements that I have received in person. He says that Adam is harmless. Anything anyone else says is lumping all people of one disability into a group. Lets be real, the church is saying one thing, the parishioner another. Now we have a person backing the family. Anyone backing that particular church? Or even a contrary fact?

Originally posted by pavil
this has been talked about in this thread as well.
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

He also one time assaulted a girl by pulling her onto his lap and, during Easter mass, ran to the parking lot and got into two vehicles, starting them and revving the engine, Walz alleged.

There were people directly in front of the car who could have been injured or killed if he had put the car in gear," Walz wrote.
kstp.com...

What..? So now he almost killed or seriously injured people based on "If he put the car in gear."? Pure SPIN.. [he's a possible murderer now..] I'd like to see that argument used in a court room. Did he have an evil laugh too then? Walz is using imaginary scenarios to defame the kid now and people are actually eating it up as some sort of evidence. I also find it kind of strange that the kid got into and was revving two vehicles? Really?

How was he able to start them without the keys?

Did the two car owners give him the keys or did he break in through the glass and just hotwire them instead? I'd really like this one explained to me as right now it sounds like complete bs.

This is how mob mentality works.. believe any and all rumours that defy logic and pick up a pitchfork. :shk:

[edit on 2-6-2008 by riley]

I dont understand where the motive lies in the priest for telling lies if this is what he did. Im not saying he isnt, but he doesnt get anything out of it. Also, doesn't the article state that the mom violated the protective order and will have to go to court now? Even if the priest is a liar, she is demonstrating poor judgement. If she has to be present for church mass, there must be other Catholic churches around who will allow her to worship along with her son.

Originally posted by raven bombshell
I dont understand where the motive lies in the priest for telling lies if this is what he did. Im not saying he isnt, but he doesnt get anything out of it.

I dare say the same motives a white supremist has against a black person.. what he gets out of it is not having an autistic person in his church.

..unless you think it's more likely that the kid was given sets of keys or hotwired two cars.

[edit on 2-6-2008 by riley]

reply to post by riley


OK, but where are the parishoners in all this? There have to be others in the church attending regularly who witnessed either the young man under control as the family says or being disruptive and urinating himself like the priest says. It cannot be the mother against the priest here. IF the child is sitting in his pew and not bothering anyone then how is the priest able to do this? There is a room full of people- probably hundreds of people who could say that he is lying.

Originally posted by raven bombshell
reply to post by riley

 

OK, but where are the parishoners in all this? There have to be others in the church attending regularly who witnessed either the young man under control as the family says or being disruptive and urinating himself like the priest says. It cannot be the mother against the priest here. IF the child is sitting in his pew and not bothering anyone then how is the priest able to do this? There is a room full of people- probably hundreds of people who could say that he is lying.

Very true.. they might be conciously lieing or just believing hearsay as well. We all know how witch hunts start. The car revving story is riddled with holes.. why would people be standing in front of two cars with someone they were so scared of at the wheel? A more likely scenario would be he was hiding from them. He apparently ran out in the middle of a mass.. so why weren't they still in there enjoying his absence? Did they chase him perhaps? Makes alot more sense than the official story.. I'm surprised people believe it at all.


Edited to be more concise.

[edit on 2-6-2008 by riley]

What I don't understand is, why don;t they all gather around this kid and pray real hard for a miracle? These things happen all the time if you're a believer right?Right? Surely God would heal this boy as a show of compassion for all to see, I bet the kid would be a faithful follower for the rest of his life, as would anyone there to witness such an event. Don't tell me it can't happen, cuz I see it on those evangelical shows all the time.

/end sarcasm

Is this church in some uppity suburban white upper class area? I can see it now: "Pardon me maam, but the folks in the congregation donate a lot of money, and they don't appreciate you're little imperfection ruining the illusion they they live in a perfect little world shielded from reality. Please remove him lest he shatter their delusions"

hey, again, its not a democracy. People choose to congregate together to pray, and they can choose whom they ask not to pray with them.
As far as the people whining about the animal comments.... i dont associate special needs people with animals...i associate ALL people with animals. I thought i made that clear, as thats what we are, and as i also said, the cherry blossom, the dolphin, the human, all are equally beloved of god. Dont try to spin my words like im saying that autistic children have lesser worth than other people. I dont look down on them, Nor do i look down on those who take their spiritual practice seriously as some of you seem to do. i cant imagine why you want to FORCE this child onto this congregation who obviously feel they get more out of their mass without him there.
Further, you cant go blaming this specific group for the crimes of the whole catholic church. Has anyone at this church been proven to be a molester, a hater, or a hypocrite? They did not originally try to exclude the family from being a part of the flock, just the child from disrupting mass. If the parents of this child, or ANY parents of ANY child, cannot control the childs behaviour, then the places that child should be allowed are limited. We AS A SOCIETY do not allow ANYONE to just walk around out of control. If a grown up urinated in church they would be given a ticket. And people have been arrested for assault for spitting on people. These are unacceptable in our society, and im sure the child gets much allowance, but i would imagine that allowance should end BEFORE serious spiritual practice.

reply to post by pexx421

whoa! comparing a child who is autistic to a barking dog don't know who is lower this particular church or pexx421. As a mother of an 11yr. old autistc
boy, I can only sympathize with this mother. We too attend church on a regular basis and have had to deal with the fact that at times our son can be quite disruptive and certainly unpredictable. However, rather than ban
us from service, the church has come beside us as one of our biggest supporters.
The pastor first chose a mentor i.e. babysitter from within the body of the church to be with my child at all times. secondly they gave my child something specific to do such as stack cans for the food pantry. He also has the option of going to the room where there is sound proof glass and
speakers on the wall. For us this has been heaven sent! We not only have the opportunity to worship with peace of mind, he has the added benefit
of feeling like he is helping someone less fortunate and that makes him
very happy.

The church has failed this mother and her son very egregiously.

reply to post by riley


Read the articles, then make your accusations.

That you don't think a young autistic boy getting behind the steering wheel of a car and revving an engine is cause for concern to me shows lack of judgement on your part. I'm sure the parents feel they are doing enough, but it seems rather obvious from the articles that Adam is sometimes beyond the control of his parents. How does the boy get behind two cars or grab a girl onto his lap if his parents are in supposed control of him? Obviously they are not if full control of him at all times.


The Church has tried to reach accomodation with the family, the family, from reading the articles is not trying to reach something of an arrangement with the Church.

Originally posted by Gigatronix


Is this church in some uppity suburban white upper class area? I can see it now: "Pardon me maam, but the folks in the congregation donate a lot of money, and they don't appreciate you're little imperfection ruining the illusion they they live in a perfect little world shielded from reality. Please remove him lest he shatter their delusions"

Open mouth, insert foot.

For someone taking such a tone on people they don't even know, I find it funny that you are ready to assign them such a role. Have an agenda do we? It's a town of less than 500 people from a simple search, something you have obviously forgot to do before you typed your tirade.

Estimated median household income in 2005: $24,300 (it was $22,625 in 2000)
Bertha $24,300
Minnesota: $52,024

Estimated median house/condo value in 2005: $50,000 (it was $37,100 in 2000)
Bertha $50,000
Minnesota: $198,800

www.city-data.com...
Looks like you are wrong on this one. Guess you will now be calling them poor white hicks clinging to their guns and religion eh? Find a sterotype and run with it, right?

[edit on 3-6-2008 by pavil]

Originally posted by riley
I also find it kind of strange that the kid got into and was revving two vehicles? Really?

The mother didn't deny he started the cars, and in fact gives an explanation for why he did it:

She also said they do use soft straps to bind Adam's hands and feet on occasion because it calms him, as does the revving sound of engines, which is why he started the cars.

What a sad situation...I'm always for equality and everyone being treated fairly, but this is tricky.
While he has a right to be there, I think the congregation has a right to worship in peace. So..whose rights are more important? I don't understand why the family refused other accommodations.

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by Gigatronix


Is this church in some uppity suburban white upper class area? I can see it now: "Pardon me maam, but the folks in the congregation donate a lot of money, and they don't appreciate you're little imperfection ruining the illusion they they live in a perfect little world shielded from reality. Please remove him lest he shatter their delusions"

Open mouth, insert foot.

For someone taking such a tone on people they don't even know, I find it funny that you are ready to assign them such a role. Have an agenda do we? It's a town of less than 500 people from a simple search, something you have obviously forgot to do before you typed your tirade.

Estimated median household income in 2005: $24,300 (it was $22,625 in 2000)
Bertha $24,300
Minnesota: $52,024

Estimated median house/condo value in 2005: $50,000 (it was $37,100 in 2000)
Bertha $50,000
Minnesota: $198,800

www.city-data.com...
Looks like you are wrong on this one. Guess you will now be calling them poor white hicks clinging to their guns and religion eh? Find a sterotype and run with it, right?

[edit on 3-6-2008 by pavil]

How about you get off your high horse, and remove thine own foot from mouth. For someone taking such a tone with me about making assumptions, you're awfully quick to make your own. Allow me to make a suggestion, should you find a post you find distasteful, ignore it rather than compound it with your own jaw flapping. Seeing how I made no assertions,(I did ask a question did I not?)you have nothing to refute except,hold your breath for it, a joke! The whole thing was a joke. Maybe a bad joke, maybe offensive, but all you did was illustrate how it got your panties ina bunch.

And for the record, aside from the affluence part, I'd be willing to bet there's a small element of truth to what I said. It's human nature, no matter how religious or pious or righteous you think you are, you still are uncomfortable with things you don;t understand. I smell mob mentality in this story. That's my opinion, and if you don't like it, well I'm sure you'll let me know.

You know, when it comes to being human, I've never found anyone more fitting as against it, than the religious.

The humane thing to do with a person with autism, would be to recognize them as still being a human being, and treat them as such.
Is an autistic person a physical threat to members of a church? No. People without autism have a far better grasp of their surroundings than autistics, and hence, can defend themselves against any outbursts.

Is the child with autism a threat? Absolutely not.
Is the child with autism in some form, not worth humane treatment? No.

So whats the HUMANE thing to do?
Treat the child as one of your own.

What is religion NOT doing?
The religious are NOT treating this child humanely.

Religion isn't humane.
The humane thing to do, would be abolish religion.

Originally posted by pavil
Guess you will now be calling them poor white hicks clinging to their guns and religion eh? Find a sterotype and run with it, right?

[edit on 3-6-2008 by pavil]

And what is this? Some kind of Obama reference?What kind of smarmy joke are you trying to get off here? I won't be calling anyone anything, nor did I originally call anyone anything. And since I was "wrong"(I use this term for your benefit since I never asserted anything) what I said doesn't apply to the people in question now does it? Who's got an agenda now?

all of what you people say still doesnt change this one fact. If i am doing my daily meditation, i dont want any loud out of control influence around. These people, as you folk fail to realize (some mental block here) are not rejecting the child as a whole....just during a solemn ceremony. The church tried to work with him. Of course the autistic mother posting above is going to side with the Family she feels a false sense of kinship. The church TRIED to work with them on this, the mother refused. People have a right, as a group in religion, to decide what their own faith entails.....and if that is a mass that is urine and spittle free, then so be it for them. I find it speciesist of you folks who keep harping on my dog comment as if YOU are above dogs. you have no more right to life, and no greater value to god than do my children loopy (my dog) and mr clean (my cat). It is rank arrogance and egocentrism to think so and pride is one of the 7 deadly sins....but then religious folk are known for pointing out the faults of others, and judging themselves as better than non believers.

If the child is extremely disruptive to the church services, and or a danger to others then i really don't think they have much choice but to ask that the parents take the child to another room to worship. If the parents do not wish to cooperate then it seems as though the church has no other recourse but to ask that they not attend with their child.


What i'm not understanding is that it seems as though some of the things that the priest is complaining about could be avoided by the family. The public urination, the mother says the boy sometimes has a problem with incontinence, so why then don't the parents have him wear an adult diaper, or pull ups in case of an accident ?


She says that her & the father sometimes sit on him as the wieght calms him down, and this is probably why he pulled the girl down on top of him. So then why don't the parents have him wear a wieghted vest and put a wieghted blanket over his lap during church service ? These are items that are frequently used in occupational therapy with children with certain disorders and work quite well to help keep a child calm.


They may try bringing something with to keep him occupied during the service. It seems as though they may be trying to have this boy sit through a service as any other 13 year old would be expected to do, Which i'm sure is something that he is incapable of doing and is probably frustrating for him which makes him act out.


I am not siding with the church, however it does not seem to me that the parents are doing everything possible to allow the parishoners to welcome the boy being there. IMO it seems as though they may be expecting their son to behave in a way that he can not.


The mother said that they have been attending that church for years without any problems. Could it be that the parish members are now at a higher level of concern because the boy is now going into puberty ? I would expect that anyone would be upset at the idea of any boy pulling a girl onto his lap. They could have very well have thought that there were some sexual undertones to his action, being that he is at the age where puberty usually starts.