Why vote for a socialist? Re: Sen. Obama

reply to post by Hal9000

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You know what? I want to answer this right. So, I will go and download the right plans, and highlight and give you the response you deserve. Now, I have to be at work in 6 hours, so look for it in about 15. It will be here when you get the time. I will also highlight his liberal agenda that marks, IMO, the beginnings of a march towards socialized programs, the likes of which have not existed in years. Hence, the term I used, a socialist.

But you deserve a real answer. So because I am not some troll, info at my fingertips, ready to spew, I will have to get back to you. But I will.
P.S., it was not a link, but the thanks they sent me for a donation.

Last I saw the Dalai Lama and Jesus were not on the ticket. I have seen a lot of Obama hater threads of late. I like it. What? A semi black man leading the country? Horrors. We don't have any good candidates that will sink their teeth in the necessary issues.
I hope you realise the seething irony of my words.

[edit on 6/1/2008 by jpm1602]

At any rate, no matter what obama's plans may be he obviously has the support of big business, corporate power, and the powers that be.... otherwise he would have gotten the ron paul treatment.
Also his 4 top campaign contributers are all Big Business

A military/industrio complex? Right in our backyard? No way! Just shoot me now. Look up on any available media. Utube etc. Eisenhowers address of the nation of the military industrial complex. Tell me he didn't just look like he saw a ghost.

[edit on 6/1/2008 by jpm1602]

The problem with the Liberals and their Socialist agenda is it is directly in opposition to freedom...

Liberals and Socialists both advocate more power to the government. Then the Liberals proclaim loudly how they support freedom, BUT... The freedom they proclaim is that GIVEN by their form of government...

Government CAN NOT GIVE US FREEDOM!!!!!

They can only restrict it for numerous reasons.

THE FREEDOMS ARE OURS....

So Obama, Hillary and the lot all want to control profits, raise taxes, reduce defense and then GIVE us freedoms...

Am I the only one that sees the hypocrisy in that?

How can it be a free country when you want to TAKE someone else's money? So what if Exxon makes billions? YOU would also if you could and deep down no matter how you may deny it and proclaim your concern for mankind, you know you would.

The very definition of TAKE precludes the idea of FREEDOM...

The very idea of raising taxes to support a larger government, is directly opposite of any concept of freedom..

If you want higher taxes, you don't want freedom.. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS...

Freedom requires, no DEMANDS, a small government....

In todays world sadly, it also demands a strong military. something else the Liberals will take from us..

A vote for a Democrat is a vote against freedom.. Plain and simple

Semper

Oh boy. I don't even know where to begin Semper. I somehow remember my past being so much better under Clinton. I kind of have a problem with whacking a 100k Iraqis for whats under the ground. I have finely set myself up for flame. Flame away. I asked for it. I will take it.
Question. How do you let our Mexican border run rowdy with cartels and think we are doing so good? And God only knows what sleeper cells can fly into Mehico and f us up?

[edit on 6/1/2008 by jpm1602]

reply to post by semperfortis

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Have you noticed how large the government has become under the current conservative administration? Have you noticed how many freedoms they have restricted? Yet you say a vote for someone different will only make it worse? That is frightening.

I know its popular here to call democrats socialists and conservatives Nazis or to associate those terms with them in any way possible...

...but in your hearts you guys know that conservatives are not Nazis and liberals are not socialists. Keep it real, will ya?

Universal Healthcare is practiced by some of the most wealthy European countries who saw healthcare as a basic right of everyone and was certainly not practiced properly by communist/socialist countries who never had enough money to provide any sort of good healthcare.

[edit on 1-6-2008 by Skyfloating]

Healthcare for all!? You commie nazi pig. Just who do you think you are? The audacity! Sick people needing help. Let them die. Irony.

So semper, you then would mostly advocate anarchism? I do myself as well, anarchism is the only true freedom. but anywho, i disagree with the taking peoples money bit...see the thing is, the whole idea of massive possession is anathema to freedom too. The whole reasons the corporations buy up all the resources and food is so they may make other people serve them in order to get any. I remember reading the words of some 13th century bishop in that "there is plenty bread on the world for everyone to eat...but a few men go out and gather up all the bread to themselves, that you must go the them for bread and serve them for it". Our belief in possession is one thing that needs to be overhauled, but i dont mean posession for personal security. We can own a house, thats good....and food. But buying up all the land in an area so no one can get food but through you? passing legislation that makes it so small business cant compete and folds under? what kind of freedom is that? Setting the system up so most people are working their whole lives to pay bills and support our corporations, thats servitude, and its almost impossible nowadays, DUE TO THE SYSTEM, to merely buy a plot of land and eke out your living off the land. I mean first off you have to pay taxes on your land each year so you are forced to have some income even if not for yourself. What kind of freedom is that? We pay tax on all our posessions or they are taken away (house, car, land) that sounds more like rent to me. We need licensing for our work and need to pay regularly to stay licensed in many jobs....what kind of freedom is that?
Why is it that a small percentage of people are allowed to own the majority of the production in the world while other people are allowed to starve? because their parents and grandparents earned it? That just means they were better killers liars, and robbers than everyone else, thats where most big money came from, like the rockefellers and the carnegies. It is immoral to allow so much power and wealth be held in the hands of so few for the benefit only of themselves. After WWII the income tax on the top 15% of americans was 90%. Now the top 15% pays about 7% of their income in tax, while I pay close to 20% of mine, 35% if you include SS and all the rest. Thats close to the highest taxes among industrialized nations, and what do we get for it? Other countries get free healthcare, free college, and a plethora of government services. We....I....get Nothing from my government. If i am sick, they dont help. If i go broke, they arent there for me. I get no free education, shoot, they wont even repair my roads or pick up the trash littering my streets!!....if i lose my house they wont help me pay for...but they'll bail out the big businesses when THEY go bankrupt with MY tax dollars!!! That must be what they mean by freedom. Our country DOES have socialism....it has socialized backing for our corporate world....they get their costs subsidized by our tax dollars, and now they get their loss subsidized by our taxes....but their profits they get to keep to themselves. If we are paying for their subsidies we should be profiting from their earnings! So see, there IS socialism in our country, just not for the average working man. And the corporations seem to like that socialism a lot....they just dont want us figuring out how nice it can be, so they keep running these propaganda ads against it, and printing proganda papers against it, and attacking every country that tries to be socialist so that the world can never see what a succesful socialist country can truly be like.

But....Monsanto is our friends. We...were messed up by 16 bad saudis. That we cowtow to. Another fine mess you've gotten me in Mossad. Wake the heck up now.
I just have to add this for effect. Bush warned the Saudi hiearchy they will need to go back to goat farming when we unlock the antipetrol secrets. Do you remember how to laugh?

[edit on 6/1/2008 by jpm1602]

I'm just throwing this out there... A quick little Photoshop piece I made:

image source: http://atsmedia.cachefly.net/uploads/ats54490_foodthought.jpg



I guess it could be used by either side in the debate

If revelations is any good source of info mattguy, the yellow people will take over israel in the end. I am not anti Israel. I think they pull us into more than we can handle. And if they gave an inch once in a while maybe people could live in peace. Laughs....nice stretch.

Well guys, it really is all a matter of personal responsibility...

You see, I would prefer to take care of myself than have someone elected to care for me.

I would rather trust in my abilities in the free market, than trust someone else to provide for me...

I'll take care of my own, and my family's health care thank you. I don't want the government or anyone else to be responsible for me and my family..

I see all of your points, but to me it is plain and clear.

1. I don't want to be cared for.
2. Yes, Republicans have been disappointing, but at least it is the "true" Republican ideal to have small government. It is the Liberal Democrat ideal for HUGE government.
3. I don't want my freedoms "given" to me.
4. I don't want ANYONE taking the money I earn for programs I don't advocate. (Ever hear of the Boston Tea Party?)

Universal Health Care, Huge Government, Taxation Increases...

All just wanting someone to care for you and relieve yourself of that responsibility.

Self Reliance...

That is really what I advocate.. At least as much as possible and still maintain our Representative Republic...

Semper

If you think Barack Obama is a socialist... you have no clue as to what socialism actually is.

Universal Health care is a joke. You know what a joke is the fact that in the number one economy in the world the majority of bankruptcies is medical bills. Majority of people who file for bankruptcy because of medical costs are middle class homeowners WITH health insurance.

Your right Barack Obama has done nothing ever. He was literally born in Jan right before the Iowa caucuses, he came out of his mother as a 6 foot plus 46 year old man.
Columbia, Harvard Law School, Running the Harvard law review, Community Organizer, Teaching Law at University of Chicago. State Senator,Us Senator Yeah your right has not done anything.

"He has only denied his white heritage" So where do you get your klans robe washed. Barack looks black, if you saw him on the street would you say hey look at that white guy.

Heres some of his nonexistent polices
2 Lugar Obama, Cooperative threat reduction act- 48 million for reduction of shoulder fire missiles and anti tank missiles off the black market

Coulburn-obama american transparency act- the creation of website that allows citizens to view government spending, requires all government institutions to report where money is going

Honest leadership and government act- bans gift of flying on corpoarte jets for canidates, bundled donations must be properly reported

republc of congo relief,security, democratic promotion act-self explanatory

Obama- Hagel Nuclear weapons threat reduction act- self explanatory

I'm just going to answer this in general, and take it as the answer to all of you obamiacs....

No one has answered any of my questions, except maybe this guy above me. Although I see, in no way, any real accomplishments by Obama. I see no real legislative role. I, of course, do not find sen. to make good presidents. I would vote for anyone other than the big two this year, as you Obamiacs have turned me off Obama. When it came time for answers, sadly, his supporters present none. But now I have to vote for Mccain, because as Semperfortis said, the republicans are not acting in my interests towards smaller government, but the dems are looking much worse. So here is some of my arguments to your questions...


Ah, the nice way of putting it. So, I see that communism is socialism gone bad, and I point out, that on an island, or in a family, socialism works. However we are not a family, or a small island.
If you read the above, then I stand by my statement that Sen. Barrack Obama is a socialist. Whether it be through legislation, or illegal taxation, his goal is to take money from the haves, and give to the have-nots. Please explain to me how this is not socialism?
Capitalism dictates that the market is open to anyone, to provide anything, and charge whatever they want. If an industry gets out of balance due to supply and demand, then it self corrects through alternatives and price fluctuation. The governing bodies that represent the interests of free and equal markets should identify and maintain standards , preventing in the process illegal acts and dangerous monopolies. That is the role of government.
Health care is so expensive for many reasons.

Elective surgeries are at an all time high. How many great heart and brain surgeons are wasting away dong breast jobs?

People are leading unhealthy lifestyles. We smoke, eat too much, drink too much, and exercise never, and then wonder why we get preventable diseases like diabetes.

People can't read. Every time I start a new insurance, and yearly from the VA, I get a book that lists common ailments and ways to treat them. It also has has healthy living guides, and a 24 hour nurse line for questions and opinions. But according to the medical staff I know, an overwhelming number of visits are from people who didn't need to go. Increased visits for non-threatening reasons, or lack of research, has led to a waste of doctor time, and is a huge strain on the industry.

Malpractice suits have reached disastrous levels, accounting for huge costs on other patients.

And my last point, that no one has addressed...At what point did we assess that every person has the right to do whatever they want, both in their private life and public role, and yet they have the right to not be responsible for their decisions. We are obviously not talking about kids, but adults. And who said we all have the right to not go to college, work one menial job, and have 5 kids, yet get all the benefits of those who planned better? There are many ways to fix our healthcare system, but forcing others, through taxation, to pay for others care is beyond me.

If the government wants to help, do a military type contract with doctors.
Give them a free ride through college and med school, and then they have to take a certain percentage of low income individuals at lower costs (for a specific amount of time). The doctors pay back the loans at little to no interest, therefore making this a very attractive option to a lot of inner city MD candidates.

I know that some people get trampled in this machine called capitalism, but as other countries have shown, socialism tramples a lot more.

Nothing can be a "right" if it places a burden on another citizen. Please think about this concept.

The minute you imply that healthcare is a "right" it means somebody else is *required* to administer it. Take this to the extreme. What if people stopped going to school to become doctors? How would the government enforce the "rights" of people to have healthcare if there were no doctors?

Likewise, how is the government going to force doctors to provide healthcare at government assigned wages?

This isn't a right, it's a step towards totalitarianism.

reply to post by jamie83

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That's nonsense... ALL societies are based on mutual need and responsiblity... the whole notion that someone is independent of the society they live in is absurd.

reply to post by grover

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Grover, answer my points, would you? I see that you think we are dependent on each other, while I contend that we are dependent on ourselves and our families. This other matrix was created to foster a socialist ideal that will never exist. The truth is, I can't depend on my neighbor to go to work and support me and my choices.