Romans 13

When looking for deliborate editing or changes to the Bible, be it for Religion or Government, one way to check out your Bible is to turn it to Romans 13 in the KJV and then compare it to other Bibles. I don't have one here with me so I am not going to directly quote the KJV.

Instead I am going to quote Romans 13 from the Gideons, The NIV Topical Study Bible and NCV (New Century Version)

Gideon's Romans 13

1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

2 "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall recieve themselves to damnation."

3 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"

4 "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon them that doeth evil."

5 "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

6 "For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing."

7 "Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to who custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."

9 "For this, thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

10 "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

11 "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed."

12 "The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light."

13 " Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wontonness, not in strife or envying."

14 "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof."

NIV Topical Study Bible Romans 13 Titled "Submission to the Authorities"

1 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. the authorities that exist have been established by God."

2 "Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement upon theselves."

3 "For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you."

4 "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is god's Servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer,"

5 "Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishnment but also because of conscience."

6 "This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. "

7 "Give everyone what you owe him: if you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if resoect then respect, if honour, then honour."

"Love, for the day is near"

8 "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law."

9 "The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not commit murder," Do not steal," "Do not covet,"and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love yourneighnor as yourself."

10 "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is fulfillment of the law."

11 "And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake from your slumber, because salvation is nearer now then we first believed."

12 "The night is almost over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light."

13 "Let us nehave decently, as in the day time, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy."

14 "Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature."

NCV Romans 13 Titled "Christians should obey the law"

1 "All of you must yield to the government rulers. Noone rules unless God has given him the ower to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God."

2 "So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves."

3 "Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you."

4 "The ruler is God's servant to help you. But if you do wrong then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God's servant to punish those who do wrong."

5 "So you must yield to the government, not only because you know you might be punished, but becasue you know it is right."


6 "This is also why you pay taxes. Rulers are working for God, and give their time to their work."

7 "Pay everyone, then what you owe. If you owe any kind of tax, pay it. Show respect and honor to them all."

"Loving Others"

8 "Do not owe people anything, except always to love each other, becasue the person who loves others has obeyed the law."

9 " The law says, "You must not be guilty of adultery. You must not murder anyone. You must not steal. You must not want to take your neighbors things." All these commands and all others are really only one rule. "Love your neighbor as you love yourself.""

10 "Love never hurts a neighbor, so loving is obeying the law."

11 "Do this because we live in an important time. It is now time for you to wake from your sleep, becasue our salvation is now nearer than we first believed."

13 "The "night" is almost finished, and the "day" is almost here.So we should stop doing things that belong to the darkness and take up the weopons used for fighting in the light. We should not have wild parties or get drunk. there should be no sexual sins of any kind, no fighting or jealousy."

14 "But clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ and forget about satisfying your sinful self."

[edit on 30-5-2008 by 12.21.12]

Moral of the story. The government uses religion to control us. This should serve as proof.

That reminds me of Proverbs 16:12:

New American Standard Bible: "It is an abomination for kings to commit wicked acts, For a throne is established on righteousness."

Douay-Rheims Bible: "They that act wickedly are abominable to the king: for the throne is established by justice."

King James Bible: "It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness."

Same verse, just different translations. More versions and commentaries here.

That's why the LDS church uses the KJV, it's the least corrupt one. Here's Roman's chapter 13 from the King James Version:

1 Let every soul abe subject unto the higher bpowers. For there is no cpower dbut of God: the epowers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that aresist shall receive to themselves bdamnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the apower? do that which is bgood, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is athe minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for aconscience sake.
6 aFor for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; ahonour to whom honour.
8 aOwe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that bloveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit aadultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not bsteal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not ccovet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy dneighbour as thyself.
10 aLove worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the blaw.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high atime to awake out of bsleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the aday is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of bdarkness, and let us put on the carmour of dlight.
13 Let us walk ahonestly, as in the day; not in brioting and cdrunkenness, not in dchambering and wantonness, not in strife and eenvying.
14 But aput ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the blusts thereof.

King James Version - LDS.org

See the major differences in every verse?

Honestly sometimes I wonder if the whole book of Romans was just added in, after all it is called Romans. Some of the newer bibles even go on to say obey police officers and such, is this the religion they are shaping for the New World?

No matter how the various tranlsations have it, if you want to check, you can always go back to the greek from which the translations were translated from. Variations in words here and there are not evidence of the original Bible texts being changed or manipulated, simply their modern versions to suit the doctrine of the translator. The original texts are actually quite accurate when compared to each other, and there are many....

www.carm.org...

If you wish to check for yourself how the original greek or hebrew states things throught the Bible, there is a nifty program you can download for free that has built in concordances, modern translations etc.....

www.scripture4all.org...

also, Romans is named so because it was a letter to the Roman church, not because it was inserted by Romans

Hold up there tigers, let's look at the big picture and remember what happened in the Old Testament. Remember God wanted no government, but that all mankind to serve Him and obey His law, HOWEVER, even when judges were appointed to settle smaller matters, His children demanded a king. Thus He had provided and appointed one, did He not?

Do you believe that governments are appointed AGAINST the will of God?

Do you believe God has no control over a king/president/prime minister and they are outside of his authority?

On the whole, have governments had a tendency to create order or chaos? Does God side with order or chaos? Is God's creation an order or chaos? Does anarchy/anarchists side with order or chaos? Have governments historically conflicted with the 10 commandments? The Golden Rule?

[edit on 30-5-2008 by saint4God]

Thanks Doctorex, very useful information and that would make sense of course, I guess the Romans must have seem this as a way to establish their church.

reply to post by saint4God


Well to answer your question, I do believe that MOST humans are capable of living in a free world, without government overshadowing them. Unfortunately their are still many who would oppose this and try to establish control. Don't get me wrong, I think there are many benefits of having government. But I think that the intent of Romans 13 was originally intended to declare God as the highest and to love one another is fulfilling the law. In other words I can think of many circumstances when doing the right thing is considered illegal, as in the evolution of Romans 13 this is quite clear. Obviously these modern adaptions are teaching to fear authority rather than question it.

reply to post by doctorex


It was not a letter to the Roman Church, it was a letter written by Paul to the Roman People, who were opposing the the idea that Christ, The Apostles, and Peter, we're appointed by God to teach, and spread the Good News.
They we're questioning the One God concept, and that of Christ.

Hence the letter speaks to the Roman people, and establishes Peter's authority set out by Christ.

Rome at the time was the Center of The World, culturally, and lawfully speaking. Paul lay forth the whole scope of Christian Doctrine, that Christ held all the answers to life's most important questions.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
In other words I can think of many circumstances when doing the right thing is considered illegal, as in the evolution of Romans 13 this is quite clear. Obviously these modern adaptions are teaching to fear authority rather than question it.

Remember Paul also said, "Test everthing." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

It's always best to keep all things he said into consideration.

The plain and simple fact is one can use the Holy Bible to prove, or to dis-prove, just about anything. Secondly, Christians and all others who follow the Book Religions need to wake up to this: God did not write any books, men wrote the Bible(s) all of them, and those in power use that to scare you and control you, and...it is still working after all these years!

Originally posted by autowrench
God did not write any books

The first one he wrote was broken out of anger.

Originally posted by autowrench
men wrote the Bible(s) all of them, and those in power use that to scare you and control you, and...it is still working after all these years!

Oh noes! I'm scared and controlled! Whatever shall I do! I must recruit more of the masses...look into my eyes @_@ Run autowrench! Only you can break free, the rest of us will become zombies!

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


Are you sure that God himself / herself / entity actually wrote any of the books that appear in the holy bible ?????

I thought that he spoke to men to write the books.
hey If I'm wrong i'm wrong.

I am also not slating the bible in any sense. I have been reading the book, like I will also do with the Koran and as I will do with all other holy books during my life time.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by colec156]

Originally posted by colec156
Are you sure that God himself / herself / entity actually wrote any of the books that appear in the holy bible ?????

Ya, after Moses broke the first writing, he had to go back up the mountain to get another.

"When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God." - Exodus 31:18

"The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets." - Exodus 32:16

"When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain." - Exodus 32:19

"The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke." - Exodus 34:1

It would be fair to say then that Moses was the first law breaker.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by 12.21.12


This is part of the dangers of isolating verses instead of looking at the entirety of scripture. A couple of things to point out in reply to the original post:

1). Look at the complete context of the quoted passages. Remember, Old Testament Jews were used to a combination of church and state. Their religious and state laws were one and the same. Because New Testament Christians are no longer under the Old Testament Laws, they will now have to function with their Christian faith under whatever governments they are citizens to. Look at the passage- it talks about love being the main law, briefly references the fulfillment of the OT laws, and lists some basics like not committing adultery, don't lie, pay your taxes, etc. So it's talking about living under the laws of whatever land they live in as the OT laws were fulfilled with Christ.

It was to help Christians (mostly still Jewish converts at this time or those living in Rome) to show how their faith is compatible to other governments.

2). This is not a commandment for us to be mindless sheeple. This is where we need to take the entirety of Scripture into consideration. A New Testament example of this would be the passages in Revelation dealing with Christians under the end times Anti Christ government. Not only are they not to submit to his government and rule, we are warned that to do so is to be eternally lost. Following the AC, taking the mark (which will be law), accepting the religion of the false prophet is an instance where we are absolutely not to submit.

In summary, all this passage is stating is some fundamentals and giving Christians some real world advice that their faith and following the laws of the land were compatible. Then with the entirety of Scripture taken into consideration (an example in Revelation was given but several are found throughout the Bible) we're shown that there are limits when it comes to ungodly government.

The Bible was written in a way to let THE HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE rise to power.

Simple really. Pay your taxes and obey these people. That was their message.

Obey.

reply to post by 12.21.12

The Bible was written in a way to let THE HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE rise to power.

The Jews really shot themselves in the foot with that one, didn't they?

Jew is a term I try to stay away from as it is used in so many ways. So did the Jews shoot themselves in the foot? Perhaps. But did the Zionists? Definitely not. This play into their hands completely.

reply to post by 12.21.12


So you didn't get it. That's cool.

Maybe you say I didn't or don't get it. That's cool too.

To each their own.

Thanks for the laugh anyhow.