I don’t know why this topic has gotten under my skin.

I think it is because, here at ATS, I immediately get defensive when someone casually suggests insanity, or delusions, or perhaps psychosis as a way of dismissing someone. It is very easy to imply that someone is mentally diseased when actually they are quite normal, but just thinking progressively.

And if someone truly has a disorder – it makes it harder to bring that forward because that accusation is so often made inappropriately.

Labeling someone as delusional (which is a very specific, painful, and often dangerous condition) should require more proof than has been presented here.

I think most Obama supporters would characterize him as smart, tolerant, reflective, and sympathetic. This seems to go against your assertions.

Originally posted by Buck Division
I think it is because, here at ATS, I immediately get defensive when someone casually suggests insanity, or delusions, or perhaps psychosis as a way of dismissing someone. It is very easy to imply that someone is mentally diseased when actually they are quite normal, but just thinking progressively.

Labeling someone as delusional (which is a very specific, painful, and often dangerous condition) should require more proof than has been presented here.

I think most Obama supporters would characterize him as smart, tolerant, reflective, and sympathetic. This seems to go against your assertions.

You misunderstand NPD entirely. It is FAR from delusional or psychotic, and is very often seen in some of the most intelligent people. It's a personality disorder, not a psychotic condition.

You make a couple of great distinctions. Supporters find him tolerant, i.e., he cultivates his following. Non-supporters find him intolerant. Watch the video of the guy who wanted a photo. Also, there is a difference between being sympathetic and empathetic. I truly don't see Obama having any actual capacity to sincerely relate to other people. His bitter/clinging comment exemplifies this.

Actually, those criteria fit Hillary as well as they do Obama, maybe even more so, since Hillary is trying to convince us that being the First Lady is the equivalent of being the Secretary of State, the Vice President, and Ambassador-at-Large, all rolled into one.

I think it goes without saying that anyone who runs for office has a pretty good self image.

It should also be remembered that DSM criteria are not meant to be used to label people who have not been under clinical review and for whom some collateral information has not been gathered.

Obama may very well have some narcissistic features, but having some features is not the same as having a personality disorder.

Certainly, Obama is an ambitious, aggressive, confident young man and those are not bad qualities. I happen to believe that those qualities alone are not sufficient to qualify someone for the office of the presidency, but I can hardly comprehend someone convincing the public that he is qualified to be president without those qualities.

[edit on 2008/5/28 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Actually, those criteria fit Hillary as well as they do Obama, maybe even more so, since Hillary is trying to convince us that being the First Lady is the equivalent of being the Secretary of State, the Vice President, and Ambassador-at-Large, all rolled into one.

Yes, I think it's obvious that HRC is a prime example of NPD as well. Probably McCain too. But the reason I made the comment about Obama is because he is relatively unknown, and the more that I learn about him, the more obvious his NPD seems to be.

And yes, I'm well aware of the intended use of the DSM-IV. That said, the symptoms are pretty obvious.

Just my 2 cents.

It's amazing that a man on a message board says that Obama has no achievements... He's a U.S *SENATOR* Not a Congress person in the lower house - he is a SENATOR of the United States.. Do you know the requirements to be a Senator? They are much much higher than that of the lower house.

So being a Senator of the United States is no achievement at all? - Come on now!

What do you do? Pump gas?

The other thing to keep in mind is that many good Presidents had little to no political experience - Abraham Lincoln sucked at everything he did until he was President (Read up dude was a total loser until he became POTUS)

And Andrew Jackson who was a talented military man but had no real political experience and yet he was the only President to pay off the entire national debt, ever.

Nice post .. it does seem Obama has unsubstantiated bloated self-esteem that comes off selfish and disrepectful.

He is not a humble persion, nor suffice it to say, has never been humbled.

Maybe losing this election will humble him.

It is so difficult to diagnose these things with certainty from afar, but the excellent point has been made several times above that many politicians are highly narcisstic. A sense of entitlement, a love of attention (narcisstic supply), power, a feeling of being unique. Politicians exhibit these traits so much more than the rest of us - as do actors, judges and other people who have been driven to achieve much and to have a career in the public eye. Obama certainly does have great charm and charisma which can be red flags for NPD... Those who seek out power are those who value it - and most of us just don't value it enough to give up our lives in pursuit of that goal. The danger is when narcissism is pathological and an actual personality disorder - informing every aspect and relationship in that person's life.

However, point them in the right direction and narcissists can achieve much - look at Picasso! They have far much more drive and self belief than most of us. They achieve greatness, but are hideous to the people around them who they treat with contempt. I am not sure if Obama treats his wife and daughters with contempt - if he does it's well hidden. (Unlike Mckain's well documented verbal mauling of poor Cindy - when he called her a trollop and worse...)

Mckain also exhibits other narcisstic traits - not least narcisstic rage when he feels slighted. [Even the tiniest slight sends him into a complete tail-spin and there are many reports of him jabbing people in the chest with his finger whilst swearing at them, simply because they have disagreed with him (incurring a 'narcisstic injury').] He has a massive sense of superiority (look at his body language in debates - his refusal to look at Obama, shake hands with him, the 'that one', comment. And paying attention to his earlier career certainly indicates a sense of entitlement.

But then Bush also clearly felt very entitled (even to an election win which wasn't necessarily his)... Bill Clinton too also showed many narcisstic traits - not least an astonishing charisma and a feeling that rules simply didn't apply to him. Sarah Palin also seems to have some of that charisma and her career is also characterised by a sense of entitlement, a willingness to bend the rules, an unsavory vindictive streak and unshakable self belief.

I believe, when it comes to politicians it is more relevant to ask 'who does not have a personality disorder?' The answer to that, unequivocably, is Joe Biden.



[edit on 9-10-2008 by silverfiligree]