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Why do we die, and where do we go afterwards?

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posted on May, 28 2008 @ 04:48 AM
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WHY DOES DEATH EXIST?

death wasnt part of god's original plan. the beginning of genesis testifies to GOD creating man to live peacefully on earth. The first 2 chapters tell us alot. before we move on from this though certain basic facts must be seen

chapter 2 verse 7 says: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

the language is very particular here. many view the body and the soul as being separate entities, but thats not whats being said here. Adam (flesh and blood) was a soul.

another thing to note is the warning god gave adam and eve. ch 2 vs 16+17 says: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

this is where death is first mentioned. you'll notice its stated here as a consequence. but what is death? eccl 9:5 says "but the dead know not any thing", verse 10 says "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." death is non-existance. if one was to die and be resurrected, what would it feel like? well jesus tells us at john 11:11 that "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." So GOD was warning of non-existance (see also psalms 146:4)

again, death was not part of GOD's original plan.

so why provide that commandment? the answer lays in free will. GOD created us as free moral agents. He wants us to be close to him because we want to be. some might say "well, he gives us a choice while putting a gun to our heads". its true that it sounds that way, but notice verse 17 doesnt say GOD was going to kill them, it says they will die.

to understand this is to understand HOW humans were designed. we were not designed to live independently of GOD. there is an underlying spiritual need, a desire for things spiritual. even jesus said at matt 4:4 : But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

this was illustrated to me by someone with a fan. take a fan that is spinning. now unplug it, what happens? does it stop immediately? no it keeps going, but it slows down until it stops because it doesnt have power. a fan wasnt designed to work independently of the outlet in the wall.

the same is true for humans, adam lived on for some 800 years after he sinned. but because he unplugged himself from god by rebelling, he in effect lived a way he wasnt designed to live. and just like a fan, he slowly stopped some 800+ years later.

so was it god telling him he was going to kill him? or telling adam that certain choices have consequences?

what does this have to do with us? well we inherited this sin. i know a few on this forum will claim otherwise, but the proof lays in the world. if we didnt inherit the sin, wouldn't we be tending to the earth like a garden? if death is a consequence of sin, then wouldnt we all live for ever? we dont, because we are sinful. is it that far fetched that a child can inherit qualities of the parents? genetic disease can be passed down through parants.

so what does god do? he immediately finds a solution. adam and eve sinned deliberately. they made their intentions clear, so salvation is not an option for them, but its for those of us born with sin, who will die because of adam and eve, it is.

so GOD immediately made the first prophecy. Gen 3:15 (talking to satan) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

this seed would later be know as jesus christ. the bruising on his heel would be his death. it would be a temporary victory for satan as jesus would be resurrected (hence, only a bruise in the heel) but satan's death would be permanent (bruising of the head). later in the greek scriptures, it is also referred to as a crushing. but the point is, jesus' death would be a way out of original sin (or inclination to sin)

so there you have it. why we die. but now what happens after we die? the bible talks about an after life doesnt it?




posted on May, 28 2008 @ 04:48 AM
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HELL

“Hell is an outrage on humanity. When you tell me that your deity made you in his image, I reply that he must have been very ugly.” - Victor Hugo

the catholic encyclopedia defines hell as "hell in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men;"

NOTE - immediately this is in conflict with gen 2:17 where death (non-existance) is the punishment. it should also be asked, if a person is suffering in hell, doesnt this make him alive in some way? this also is in direct conflict with eccl. this is also in conflict with 1 john 4:16 "God is love" .

so what do the scriptures say about hell? an excerpt from the catholic encyclopedia


The Latin infernus (inferum, inferi), the Greek Hades, and the Hebrew sheol correspond to the word hell. Infernus is derived from the root in; hence it designates hell as a place within and below the earth. Haides, formed from the root fid, to see, and a privative, denotes an invisible, hidden, and dark place; thus it is similar to the term hell. The derivation of sheol is doubtful. It is generally supposed to come from the Hebrew root meaning, "to be sunk in, to be hollow"; accordingly it denotes a cave or a place under the earth.


what the encyclopedia doesnt mention is that the words sheol and hades can also mean "grave"

so there is nothing wrong with the world its self. if you examine the scriptures with the meaning of the world in mind then you will see there is no conflict with gen 2:17. for example:

job 26:[6] Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

job 14:[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!(some translations use hell)

prov 7:[27] Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

jonah 2:[2] And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.(jonah was in the belly of a fish at the time.)

matt 23:[33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

acts 2:[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (yes jesus did go to hell (the grave) when he died)

so we see that hell (the grave) is not in conflict with the bible. but, i want you to know that hell (the grave) is different than death. hell and death is also different than the lake of fire. to understand this, one must define them. we already defined death. it is non-existantance. a person who is dead feels nothing. as such, hell and the lake of fire are not state of beings, as there are no "beings". they are catagories. ill start with hell.

2 peter 2:[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

in this case, we know that the demons are still alive and active. so in this respect grave is a category. the category of being reserved for judgement. it applies to both humans and demons because rev 20:[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

so we see hell is not a place of punishment. it is a catagory. it can be said that you are categorically awaiting punish whether you are alive (demons) or only exist in god's memory (dead(humans))

further proof

john 5:[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

john 11:[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

acts 24:[15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

NOTE - this is in harmony with the rest of the bible. sin leads to death. those dead from adamic sin are in hell (the grave) until the time they are resurrected for judgement. Hell is a temporary category



posted on May, 28 2008 @ 04:49 AM
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LAKE OF FIRE

first, some background. the word commonly used to denote the lake of fire is "gehenna". "gehenna" is derived from "ge hinnom", meaning "valley of hinnom" which is a literal place in jerusalem. after around 600 B.c., the valley became a garbage dump (literally) for jerusalem

many of the OT references refer with false worship, this is where they made thier children "walk through the fire". but by jesus' time, it was a grabage dump. it is also interesting that fire were kept with brimstone, so there was always something burning. criminals deemed not worthy of a burial were also thrown here. jesus would later use this valley metaphorically

matt 10:[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

i mention this scripture because it ties everything together. the word hell here was actually gehenna in the original greek. he is literally refering to a "lake of fire". he talking about death and he is talking about destruction (not suffering). "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul". man can kill you (make you dead (nonexistant)) but they cant prevent god from resurrecting you. it is GOD who can decide not to resurrect you. to which case it is like being thrown in the lake of fire. eternal destruction

now this scripture makes sense

rev 20:[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

what this scripture is saying, is that death from adamic sin will be destroyed forever. those of us who suffer because of adam will have a choice of life or death. once the choice is made, then thats it. either we put the plug back in the wall or we slowly stop.



posted on May, 28 2008 @ 04:49 AM
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THE STORY OF LAZARUS THE BEGGER


luke 16
[14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
[15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
[16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
[17] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
[18] Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


this was an illustration that jesus told to the pharisees. the question is, can this illustration be taken with a literal interpretation, or is it a metaphor. the problem is that it conflicts with other scriptures. why would jesus do that?

amoungst the conflicts is the obvious, the 2 men died and each went to places after they died, which jesus himself conflicts when he talks about lazarus (real one, not the beggar) being asleep. notice too abraham is mentioned as a father. we know god is not abraham, we also know that at this point abraham is dead. even if he was to be raised to heaven, he wouldnt be yet because jesus hadnt died yet.

the logical conclusion is that the illustration is a metaphor for something. most people read this and assume its an illustration of karmic retribution, rich man gets what he deserves.

but look at the context, jesus is talking to the pharisees about the law. 15 he talks about their haughty attitudes as religious leaders, 16 talks about the law and prophets stopping at john. 17 talks about the perfect of the law. 18 he talks about marriage and grounds for divorce.

matthew gets alittle more in-depth.

matt 9:[3] The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
[4] And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
[5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
[6] Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
[7] They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
[8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
[9] And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

you see the law allowed for people to get divorced for multiple reasons, and the pharisees supported it. they claimed to hold the law. jesus was saying that there is more than the letter of the law, there is the principle.

it can be said the pharisees are likened to the rich man in the parable.

lazarus was the people who the pharisees lorded over. the people needed to go to the pharisees for spiritual things. the pharisees also made the law a burden. trifling over small things. you can say the people were starved and sickly. people in jesus' ministry were sometimes pittied by jesus because they were "as sheep having no shepard"

so you have the rich man (pharisees) and you have lazarus (the people). they both die, how?

verse 16 explains. jesus, proclaimed by john, would fulfill the law. a jew's life was never going to be the same again. in a way you can say that their lifestyle had died.

in the parable, the rich man and lazarus are reversed in their situations. lazarus is in comfort while the rich man suffers. this was evident at pentecost when holy spirit was poured out on the congregation. this noted that GOD's favor changed to the christians. no longer did they need the religious leaders for spiritual guidance.

the rich man then begs for lazarus to relieve some of the torment. keep in mind, jesus and his disciples caused the pharisees alot of torment. their preaching and miracles cause quite a stir with the people. that mixed with their dieing system whose destruction was sealed when the romans destroyed jerusalem.

when the rich man is refused, he asks to warn his brothers. its possible that the brothers represent other isreali groups that existed in conflict with jesus. he is than told that they can follow moses and the prophets (which point to jesus as the messiah). the rich man insists that he needs to return, and that following moses and the prophets isnt enough. god replies that if they can listen to moses, than even raising the dead will not convince them



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:9-11

[edit on 29-5-2008 by saint4God]


isaiah 34:9-10 - Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.

this was god's pronouncement against edom. was edom thrown into hell? no it was destroyed and still remains desolate to this day. even the scriptures after explain

11-12 - But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness. Its nobles-- there is no one there Whom they may proclaim king-- And all its princes will be nothing.Thorns will come up in its fortified towers, Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities; It will also be a haunt of jackals And an abode of ostriches.The desert creatures will meet with the wolves, The hairy goat also will cry to its kind; Yes, the night monster will settle there And will find herself a resting place.The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggs there, And it will hatch and gather them under its protection. Yes, the hawks will be gathered there, Every one with its kind.

not hellfire. desolation.

the beast is an organization that exists in conflict with god. it will be destroyed forever.

if a city is destroyed, and you want to rebuild, you have to wait untill the fire dies down right? otherwise anything you build will be burned. god is making a point by saying it will smoke forever. noone will ever be able to rebuild.

like edom, the beast will be desolate forever.

revelation 18 (talking about babylon the great)

[5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
[6] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
[7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
[8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
[9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

utterly burned with fire, or destroyed. last verse, they shall see the smoke of her burning

revelation 19

[1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
[2] For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
[3] And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

notice her smoke rose for ever and ever. like the literal city of babylon, babylon the great will never be rebuilt

(if you notice, babylon is also given torment. but its obvious from the context, it is before she is destroyed.)



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 02:17 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by miriam0566
or... its simply saying that they didnt repent, they are not going to repent so thier destruction will be eternal.

fire destroys


Usually it does, yes, but:

"They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:42

If it were physical, this weeping and gnashing of teeth would be merely seconds. This kind of pain is mentioned 7 times...but strangely enough Christ doesn't say people die when they are thrown into the fiery furnace. Why is that?


again, you quote from a parable.

matt 13
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

what happens when you put tares (weeds) into a furnace? they burn up. in fact if you take a weed and throw it into a furnace you will never see it again. the illustration is clear

jesus later explains the parable

[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

so jesus sows the seed.

[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

after jesus and the apostles leave, weeds are sown within the congregation (apostasy) compare with acts 20:29

[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

so the harvest is around the time of armageddon, obviously alittle before.

[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

again, furnace, fire, destruction. just like weeds being thrown into a fire. its obvious from the context the wailing and gnashing happend before they die.

the other 5 references

matt 8:[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

darkness is where the weeping and gnashing is

matt 22:[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

the wedding feast illustration. again darkness

matt 24:[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

parable of the faithful and evil servants. doesnt even say where he will go

matt 25:[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

the parable of the lazy servant. again darkness

luke 13:[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

the master shuting the door. this one only says that they wont be in the kingdom of god

-----------------

so literal or figurative?

well literal is impossible. is it darkness or torment in a fiery hell? they are opposites.

its figurative.

all of the scriptures have several things in common. all of them except matt 8 are parables. symbolic of something. ALL of them refer to the people who should know better. matt 13 talks about apostates in the congregation who should know better, matt 8 talks about jews who should have reconized jesus as messiah, matt 22 is refering to a guy who was invited to the feast and attended, matt 24 is about a servant of the master (someone who claims to serve jesus.) matt 25 is the same. luke is the same

the weeping and the gnashing is because the people know what is in store for them. they have seen the truth and acted upon it but have ultimatly rejected it and have worked against it for whatever reason. they sin against holy spirit

heb 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

that means the second death. total and final destruction for those who not only dont repent, but never will.

it does not mean eternal torment for them



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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We die because life would be nothing without a death.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by eye open doors
We die because life would be nothing without a death.


first off, you didnt really read any of the post did you?

second, why would someone need to die for us to appreciate life?



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 12:44 PM
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No I didn't read the full post. I don't need to read bible passages to understand.

If people just went on living forever the value of life would be nil. Without downs the ups wouldn't be.

As for where do we go after wards. I don't know, I haven't died. I do believe we are in hell now, trapped in a material world that is susceptible to temptations, doubts, and all sorts of illusions.

In a way, we don't die. We just change form.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by eye open doors
 


ok, while your opinion is valued and respected, i made this thread from a pure biblical point of view.

there are many atheists, agnostics, and people of many different faiths on this board, but this is information from a purely biblical point of view. i specifically pointed this thread to people who believe in the bible.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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That's a whole lot of reading lady. I was answering from my heart. What do you need all those bible passages for?



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by eye open doors
 


from my point of view, the bible is inspired of god. if god is telling me why i die and where i go after, its good to make sure of the details.

but thats only because i personally believe in the bible.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


If our spirit leaves our physical body after we die then perhaps we don't die, just our bodies? We are made up of energy that is vibrating at differing levels, and therefore our spirit vibrates at a different level. It hasn't gone away, it's just transformed into something different?



posted on Jun, 4 2008 @ 05:48 AM
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what if we arent spirit? what if we just have a spirit but "we" are the body? like a computer, the computer is a collection of parts, the processer and the HD are the brain, its what gives the computer its "personality" and memories, but the electricity (spirit) used to run it is just electricity.

take a hammer to the thing and the computer doesnt live on in energy. the only way the computer lives on is if there was a backup (god's memory) and the components are remade or bought new.

think people have an obsession with immortality because the alternative is depressing. nobody likes truth if its depressing right?

the concept of nonexistance after death also implies that to live, one must be dependant on a god. this too rubs some the wrong way.

im trying not to bring up scriptures for our little discussion, but its hard because i agree with the bible on many things, so forgive me if i happen to quote a few here or there.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by eye open doors
 


You fail by claiming ownership of your spirit.
The spirit that creates life in your body does not belong to you.
You are right when you say the spirit lives on, but it is not yours for longer than your body is intact for it to dwell in.
You, as an individual, ceases to exist, when your body dies.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 04:25 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


im glad, you brought that up. a scripture to back you up

eccl 12:[7] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 08:31 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


This is one post that I was happy to see here. Being a new studier of the United Church of God, one of a handful of apostolic Church of God assembies, I was glad to see a christian post something like this. Most mainstream christians, (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical, etc) believe you go to heaven when you die or hell when you die and that hell is a pit of fire for you to burn in for eternity. After further research I learned of the translation of hell to hades in greek and that hades actually translates to grave. Also, in contrast to the hell debate you should note that scripture points out that no man has ever entered heaven except the son of God. That leads to one conclusion.... all who die stay dead until the return of Jesus. The first ressurection will be that of the faithful christians dead and alive as well as faithful Jews and Hebrews of the pre-Jesus times. The second ressurection happens post-mellenium as the judgement in which those who didn't repent before the return of Christ would have one last chance to repent before being sent to the grave forever. This is a Church of God teaching and a teachings the early apostles teached in the first century. The Idea of heaven and hell and our spirit going to one place or another after death is a concept created by the Catholics... who are also responsible for the institution of unauthorized holidays in the christian community such as pagan Christmas or Easter and the switching of the Sabbath from saturday to sunday. They are all man-made and pagan inspired. But that's an argument for my thread, "God's Holy Day Plan and the Truth About Easter, Christmas, and Sunday Worship" here on the spirituality board. Join in if you would like, for there is much info and good discussion going on there. Star and flag for your thread.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by eye open doors
 


You fail by claiming ownership of your spirit.
The spirit that creates life in your body does not belong to you.
You are right when you say the spirit lives on, but it is not yours for longer than your body is intact for it to dwell in.
You, as an individual, ceases to exist, when your body dies.


My body is not me, my spirit is me.I disagree that I cease to exist when my meat sack rots. You can call it a failing if you like. That is your judgment and dogma. I do not adhere your beliefs.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by eye open doors
My body is not me, my spirit is me.I disagree that I cease to exist when my meat sack rots. You can call it a failing if you like. That is your judgment and dogma. I do not adhere your beliefs.


which is cool. you can disagree and believe whatever you like, its a perk of free will.

im just saying that the bible (inspired or not) doesnt agree with you. if your faith is not based on the bible, thats cool too.

i may sound self righteous, and like im trying to convert people, but im not. it just annoys me when people say "the bible says this or that" (not you, but people in general) when it clearly doesnt. thats why i make threads like this. general information.

if someone reads it, thinks about it, digests it alittle, then walks away, then im content.



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by eye open doors
 


Sorry for using that term.
I wondered if it might sound harsh to use that.
But I decided it fit the situation and kept it in.
I might have been more on point to say something like, "Your argument breaks down at this point."
I decided that by saying Fail, the meaning may be expanded to include the consequences of holding to a bad concept.
Having such a fundamental flaw in something that may be pivotal in future decision making, can be detrimental to you.
Back to the discussion: Accepting that what you see, and what you feel, is you, may be jolting and wreck your happy childhood thoughts.
Thats why when you are little, you have to have parents to watch over you.
As a toddler, you might enjoy taking kitchen knives and inserting them into electrical outlets.
You are not aware of the fact that doing what you like, could kill you.
You do not even have a concept of what death is.
So, my point is, if we were still in our mother's womb, we would have a limited view of the world, but we would feel pretty safe.
To imagine that all we are is a meat sack is a rude awakening and disrupts our feeling of how everything is right, in the world.



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