Original Sin Farce

We are all born of Sin... That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.
Judged before you were born with out a trial.. No say in the charge what so ever. All because it is written in the Good Book..

If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough people will believe it.

Don miguel ruiz believes that "original sin" is actually the social contract accepted by our parents that is impressed onto us as little children without our choice, that forces us into a system of judgement, criticism, and victimhood. He also gives us his "four agreements" or four laws to live by that help us break free from this original sin, and to be free of the "judge and the victim" that live within our heads (due to original sin) that criticize us for everything we see or do.

Never heard of him. I will have to look into what he believes..

Thanks,

~L

I did not eat the apple. I was not there. I do not have original son.


If God was so kind why would we all still be paying for the Temptation in the Garden of Eden?


I am an ex Catholic and proud that I have elected to NOT follow ANY religion. Religion is the scourge on this planet. Religion is a construct to control the masses.

Having said that, I respect the rights of others to choose. Just do not preach to me.


take care all
res

[edit on 28-5-2008 by resistancia]

[edit on 28-5-2008 by resistancia]

religion is one thing, spirituality is another. If you are an ex catholic, you should read the Sophia creation myth of the Gnostics (earliest christian mystic sect) you might enjoy the differences from the christian version of genesis

reply to post by Lantian


ok, so lets assume original sin is a farce. then why do we die?

if we are all sinless, then why do we die? why would god send jesus? why is the world wicked?

(you do realize that its not sin we inherited, but the inclination to sin right?)

Just because it's not understood doesn't mean it's false or true.

This world that you think of as your reality has an echo of taint handed down long ago. It was part of a rebelion against the forces that be for the GOoD of all. Because of the rebelion of several beings the world was plunged into darkness so that the darkness didn't effect others elsewhere. However it leads to mass confusion in the here and now. It sets up a quest to solve a question. It sets up the journy to desolve the mist of darkness within and become a true light for all to see.

Don't give up. The truth is in there. You could just take my word for it and read the Urantia book, but through the confusion of ORIGINAL SIN you don't know if that book is good or bad, something or nothing.

Originally posted by Lantian
We are all born of Sin... That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.
Judged before you were born with out a trial.. No say in the charge what so ever. All because it is written in the Good Book..

If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough people will believe it.

Yes, but the doctrine of Original sin is a doctrine of the Catholic church, not the Bible. Yes we are all called sinners in the Bible, but that is because we all sin, it has nothing to do with being judged before we were born.

[edit on 28/5/08 by doctorex]

you ask "why do we die" like its a punishment. We dont even know if death is a bad thing or not. You ask why jesus came as if it is fact. You ask why the world is wicked, when there is much love in the world.
these are all huge assumptions of yours.

as to original sin being not in the bible, that is true. It wasnt a theme until around the 1200's i want to say, about the same time that Mary the virgin and Satan the devil came into prominence. Before that time, mary was only a passing figure, and never worshipped, and the devil had very little true mention in the bible, and certainly was never described the way we see him.... Most of this came from st augustine, cept for the descriptions of the devil which mostly came from dante's inferno. And now, strangely, these are the predominant themes in most sermons you hear! ah well. Indeed, i believe "satan" is only mentioned once in that name. Lucifer also is mentioned only rarely by name. I prefer to think we are born with "original blessing". And thats a feeling we can carry with us, and look to any time we need it. Much more motivating than original sin.

From memory Satan in the hebrew means "the adversary" or "the accuser", as in the adversary of God, and is talking of what we would call "the devil". He is mentioned by this name numerous times. Lucifer is used when referring to Satan in his pre-fall state, the Light bearer, or morning star, since that is what he was before the fall. In the greek new testament writtings he is called santanas, or variations of that, which is simply the greek rendering of the Hebrew word Satan. Sometimes he is referred to as Diablos (where devil comes from), which is the greek word for the meaning of the Hebrew word satan, being accuser, slanderer etc. He was always a key figure in scripture.

Originally posted by pexx421
you ask "why do we die" like its a punishment. We dont even know if death is a bad thing or not. You ask why jesus came as if it is fact.

your asking a question about a doctrine that is claimed to be from the bible.... according to the bible, yes death is a punishment, yes jesus came. why would you open up a debate about these things now?

You ask why the world is wicked, when there is much love in the world.

where in the US? there is more to the world than america. i was talking to a friend of mine from nigeria that was saying while he was there he was eating the grass off the side of the streets because he was so hungry, wheres the love there? do you want to tell that to someone in myanmar where the government is quoted saying that they would rather let people die than for the US to provide aid? what about in the congo where they are chopping off kid's hands so they cant pick up guns?

and you mean to tell me that your life is so good right now that you dont have problems? you've never been lied to or cheated?

come on. yes there is good in life, but there is enough evil that it cant be ignored

Originally posted by pexx421
as to original sin being not in the bible, that is true. It wasnt a theme until around the 1200's

matt 26:[28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

john 1:[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

have you ever seen a sinless man? of all the good motivated christians out there, have you ever seen one that to would say is sinless? perfect? have you ever wondered why?

rom 3:[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


now just to let you know, im not catholic or any other denomination for that matter so i dont know what the exact belief of the doctrine is. (im noticing other people have an interpretation of the original sin ive never heard before.)

romans 5:[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

what adam gave us was an inclination to sin. alcoholism is a good example. if a father passes it to his son, it doesnt mean that the son is a drunkard, but it doesnt mean that the son can drink whatever he wants.

[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

this was the whole point of jesus coming to earth. adam sold us to sin and death. jesus bought us to life. so in a way we die for adam's sin, because now we have the inclination to sin

ezekial 18:[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

but we still die for our own sin

I prefer to think we are born with "original blessing". And thats a feeling we can carry with us, and look to any time we need it. Much more motivating than original sin.

2 tim 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

ah, i see, all your arguments are based on doctrine. and of course i cant argue with doctrine because its the "word of god". at any rate, the "devil" had many names in the bible, most taken from names of gods of other religions that the christians were trying to demonize. As far as original sin again, sins of the father are only passed to the son in a metaphorical way, and we certainly cannot be held accountable for the actions of someone else. Its just humans trying to give a reason for something they think is a punishment because they have no other way to understand it. death may actually be a wonderful thing.

The idea of sin is misunderstood. When the universe was updated with a new dimension and earth remade, it had the effect of plunging this world into confusion and chaos. Original sin is just a primitive way of saying that our reality went out of balance. It wasn't anyone's fault, and blaming God doesn't help because he experiences this all with us... seeing as we're just copies of the original, thoughts of the divine.

Maybe there was an Adam and Eve, and maybe they did actually eat some "forbidden fruit". But if so, it was just a result of what happened in the higher planes and perceived in a different fashion. As above so below.

Well, all I can say to this thread is that the evidence is by far in our favor. I have yet to know or know of a single person who has lived a perfect, sin-less life (with the obvious exception of Jesus). The only other exception I can think of would be newborns/infants but even then the Bible takes that into account with the age of accountability. So, being that nobody is perfect I would say original sin is the real deal. Even if you want to get into the debate that morals are relative, it is still pretty obvious that everyone has cheated, lied, stolen, etc., some time in their life.

[edit on 5/28/2008 by AshleyD]

Thank you people for your input.

Yes I still don't get why just because Adam sinned we all have to suffer for it. Because one man in the entire history of the world "sinned" we all have to suffer?

BS I think so.

reply to post by theendisnear69


That is why I posted a Thread on it.. I will never accept undeserved guilt or blame for something which I have never done!

Take care,

~L

reply to post by Lantian


Yes you keep on shouting,

your post are utter tripe with no coherent argument within them

instead of slating why not, for just a change like, offer what local police forces across all over the world like to gather, EVIDENCE?

now i realize this may be a new concept to you and perhaps the word is even challenging, however as you and your ilk are so fond of wikicrapedia, you may find this link manageable for you.

en.wikipedia.org...

I don't think there are any pictures, my apologies, but if you are having any more difficulties with any of this, just stop and ask the nearest 5 yr old who may just be able to put it together for you.

be a grown up and put together a decent post instead of trying to get points by launching a new thread about the same rubbish in every one.

I dont often get tired of hearing people but with you i feel bordem setting in very quickly.

You seem to be abnormally preoccupied with God and us Christians. If you want in, just pray and ask for forgiveness and repent of your sins, That would be sins listed in the Bible. Either that or put a sock in it for 5 minutes

david

cheerio