Iraq death toll and questions about the war:

Recipe For Terror: Assassinated Reuters Camaraman Uncovered Evidence of Mass US Casualties in Iraq

Could the U.S government be lying to us about the amount of casualties? How many people are unnacounted for? How many Iraqi civilians have been murdered? How have the U.S forces been ordered to deal with journalists? I have a feeling that we are being lied to in these repspects. The Iraq death toll after seven months exceeded that of the first three years of Vietnam. Could there be a conspiracy regarding the deaths of US soilders, unnamed Iraq soldiers and the deaths of a dozen reporters?

"thirty major news gathering outlets wrote to the Pentagon complaining of intimidation, arrest, destruction of note books, video tape, recorders and film. The circumstances of the death of ITN's Terry Lloyd and disappearance of his colleagues is still obscured by the US Administration as has been the US tank attack on the Palestine Hotel with deaths of three journalists."

"Mazen Dana, the Award winning Reuters camera man, shot dead by US troops whilst filming outside Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison in August - with full permission and press accreditation from the US Authorities in Baghdad - told his brother Nazmi, a chilling tale days before he died.

Mazen told me by phone few days before his death that he discovered a mass grave dug by U.S. troops to conceal the bodies of their fellow comrades killed in Iraqi resistance attacks. He also told me that he found U.S. troops covered in plastic bags in remote desert areas and he filmed them for a TV program. We are pretty sure that the American forces had killed Mazen knowingly to prevent him from airing his finding."

another article.
Secret US Mass Graves of Green Card Hopefuls.. a scoop in progresswww.indymedia.org.uk...
"Nael Al-Shyoukhi said "after we filmed we went into the car and prepared to go when a convoy led by a tank arrived and Mazen stepped out of the car to film. I followed him and Mazen walked three to four meters. We were noted and seen clearly. The soldier on the tank shot at us. I lay on the ground. I heard Mazen, I saw him scream and touch his chest with his blood-covered hand".

The Pentagon Response: The U.S officials said that the troops mistook Mazen's camera for a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) launcher"

Mistook a camera for an RPG? In broad daylight? You decide.







Fury at US as attacks kill three journalists media.guardian.co.uk...


The Arab satellite television channel al-Jazeera is to pull its reporters out of Iraq after one of them was killed during a US air raid on Baghdad.
"I cannot guarantee anyone's safety," the news editor, Ibrahim Hillal, told reporters. "We still have four reporters in Baghdad, we will pull them out. We have one embedded with US forces in Nassiriya; we want to pull him out."

The move followed a day in which three journalists were killed by US fire in separate attacks in Baghdad, leading to accusations that US forces were targeting the news media.

MARCH 11: British veteran Journalist Kate Adie warns that US. plans to target independent journalists. (story on Adie's interview on an Irish radio station: www.theinquirer.net...

MARCH 30: As of this date, at least 5 independent and/or non-embedded journalists in Iraq have died from car bombs, friendly fire or mysterious accidents or have mysteirously disappeared.


DEAD or presumed dead:

Gaby Rado, ITN journalist, in northern Iraq from mysterious fall from roof
Terry Lloyd, ITN journalist in southern Iraq - "friendly fire"
Fred Nerac, ITN cameraman "" "friendly fire"
Hussein Othman, ITN translator "" friendly fire
Paul Moran, 39 Freelance cameraman with the Australian Broadcasting Corp., no. Iraq - car bomb

INJURED (partial list)

Daniel Demoustier, ITN cameraman - friendly fire
Eric Campbell, ABC correspondent - friendly fire

MISSING:

Matthew McAllester, journalist, Newsday, Baghdad
Moises Sama, cameraman, Newsday, Baghdad

These two newsfolk were declared missing as of March 25 from Iraq after being ordered to leave. Their hotel room was completely cleaned out, no word left. Here's the story from Newsday:www.newsday.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.newsday.com...

baltimore.indymedia.org...





[Edited on 3/2/2004 by earthtone]

That's AOT of information and various links there Eathtone, but it does tell a themed story if you follow along.

I guess the only question is if you believe the indy news services on this. If one ascribes to the broken clock principle, even they should be 100% on target at least twice a day (or 730 times a year!)

I'm of the opinion that SOME of this must certainly be true. Some probably not. All good info though for digestion.

Originally posted by RANT

I'm of the opinion that SOME of this must certainly be true. Some probably not. .

I share this opinion with you rant. I am presenting as much valid info as possible as I think that the Iraq death toll has been covered up and possibly the U.S army has lied about it's actions in the country. I think that these sources at least begin to display the harassment journalists have had in Iraq; what are they being shielded from? This is a themed story RANT, but I personally believe there is something in all this.

Ummm, question:
Have you bothered to dig, while compiling this wonderous list of above information, to see what the numbers were for journalist and photographers that were killed in and during Vietnam or WWII, etc.?

Correlation maybe? Or would this also be a tragic situation that journalist and photographers shouldn't be no where near a combat zone but that if they intend to, that they take their lives into their own hands? Heck, how many deaths of reporters and photographers could have been saved if they weren't allowed within a combat zone or area of operations.

Some may call what I am saying as excuses, but in respect to WWII, and previous conflicts and wars since, reporters and photographers have repeatedly lost their lives, accidently or purposely, while within the "combat zone(s)" and sphere's of contested or controlled areas.

Also, I am failing to see how this relates to the issue of the US 'hiding' casualty numbers, but then again, historically, who doesn't 'hide' or manipulate those numbers? Again, WWII, Korean War, etc, will also confirm this and also confirm that the US wasn't and isn't alone...and yet....we are obviously only addressing just the US here, right?



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by Seekerof]

I hate doing this but it's the easiest way to debate.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Ummm, question:
Have you bothered to dig, while compiling this wonderous list of above information, to see what the numbers were for journalist and photographers that were killed in and during Vietnam or WWII, etc.?

I don't see how this is relevant. Obviously there will be casualties if journalists go to war, does this mean their deaths should be ignored altogether?


Correlation maybe? Or would this also be a tragic situation that journalist and photographers shouldn't be no where near a combat zone

" Mazen Dana was killed by the U.S. Army outside Abu Ghraib prison, where (the U.S army) had previously given him permission to film.

According to my colleague, Nael al-Shyoukhi, who was with Dana at the time of his death, the camera team was known to the U.S. military personnel at the prison. Al-Shyoukhi said that they had asked for permission to interview an officer, which had been denied. The soldiers had seen their IDs and knew about their mission and intentions. "

Combat Zone?



but that if they intend to, that they take their lives into their own hands? Heck, how many deaths of reporters and photographers could have been saved if they weren't allowed within a combat zone or area of operations.

Many I'm sure.

Also, I am failing to see how this relates to the issue of the US 'hiding' casualty numbers, but then again, historically, who doesn't 'hide' or manipulate those numbers? Again, WWII, Korean War, etc, will also confirm this and also confirm that the US wasn't and isn't alone...and yet....we are obviously only addressing just the US here, right?

Don't try to make this look like just some anti-America thread because it is not. I am not like that at all. I looked at a number of articles relating to this and I thought I would present a few of these facts whilst also questioning the methods implimented in Iraq (such as counting the dead which this ties in with)

I am trying to uncover facts Seekerof, thats all.

[Edited on 3/2/2004 by earthtone]

This is the 'nail in the coffin' on this administration regarding this war: the management of statistics.
With one medical hospital in Germany processing over 8K and another stateside processing 11K, the numbers being fed to the populace are hysterical.
Prepare for the spin upon full disclosure of dead & wounded: "It shows our committment to fighting TEH-ROAR!!!"
History repeating itself, in the form of government lying to sway the masses about staying the pro-war effort route, ....your point? It's acceptable because that's the way it's always been done? No.
I've read the same threads here that have folks like Rumsfeld stating that reporters will not be aided, and that photojournalist organizations have noted an abnormaly high casuality rate in this Afgan/Iraqi war of journalists.
The US has something to hide as well as not needing a hunting liscense on those who stand to uncover it. Too convenient.

I'm pretty much with Seekerof in this.....

Mistook a camera for an RPG? In broad daylight? You decide.

Sure, they see a glint aiming at them, reflected sunlight off the lens, and sure, they think their number is up... They likely didn't have time to verify the address as a hotel housing journalists....

Bob: Hey Dave, bogey at 12 o clock!
Dave: Hold on, let me look at my list, just to be sure it's not a hostile.....*papers rustle*
Bob: Dammit! He's gonna fire, its aimed right for us!
Dave: Fire!!!

War is hell....they know that going in...it's their choice to be filming in a combat zone....

I do hear what you are saying Gaz, soldiers are out there in very tense situations having to look out for themselves.

but

Camera



RPG

Some simple questions again:
Since according to BT this is the "nail in the coffin" for this administration....

Are any of us in a combat situation? Are those who are not saying that a 'camera' cannot be mistaken for a RPG or even a sniper rifle? Combat decisons are made on a split second whim, in most cases, are they not? Irregardless, and despite an/a "confirmed", yet unconfirmed report of an "out-right killing" of a media person, this is again proclaimed as "unbiased" natural unambigious, unobscured fact?

Not buying it, and it will take more than one or three "confirmed", yet unconfirmed reports of such before to even raise one my eyebrow's. I see no pattern here except what I initially mentioned concerning accidental and intentional deaths of news media in the combat zone, war situations, etc.....but hey , thats just me.




regards
seekerof

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by Seekerof]

Ok Seekerof, have a gander.

There is this from the Guardian:

US troops 'crazy' in killing of cameraman
www.guardian.co.uk...

"Journalists who were with a Reuters news cameraman shot dead by US troops while filming outside a Baghdad prison yesterday accused the soldiers of behaving in a "crazy" and negligent fashion.

They claimed the Americans had spotted the Reuters crew outside the jail half an hour before Mazen Dana was killed and must have realised he was not a guerrilla carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. "

Stephan Breitner, of France 2 television, added: "We were all there for at least half an hour. They knew we were journalists. After they shot Mazen, they aimed their guns at us. I don't think it was an accident."

In an open letter to Donald Rumsfeld, the Comittee to Protect Journalists wrote:

" "He was filming in an area where no hostilities were taking place, raising questions about whether U.S. troops acted recklessly in targeting him."
www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/20/photographer/

If what Manzen said he saw was true, then this is big. The evidence suggests he was targeted and there is also a motive as to why he would've been a target.







[Edited on 3/2/2004 by earthtone]

Got a class, but I'll address this further earthtone.

I appreciate you taking the time to find another article on this.


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Got a class, but I'll address this further earthtone.

I appreciate you taking the time to find another article on this.

No problem.

First of all, Earthtone's assertions are dead on the money. I've been investigating this since Afghanistan and throughout the Iraq invasion. Reporters were imbedded for two reasons: News management and reporters were told in no uncertain terms, unless they were pre-approved embeds they might be targets. There was nothing remotely friendly in this warning. That is exactly what it was. "Unless you're approved, you're on your own."

No one wants to think this of our military because it's obscene in inhumane. It's true, though. This whole damn thing has made done the same thing to our soldiers as Vietnam did. We are sending our young men and women into this most hostile, unprotectable and unwinnable environment and creating monsters.

As far as the camera man that the troops thought was holding an RPG, that's complete Bu#. Of the highest order. They had already identified the crew as being journalists. We call that a hit. He had information/film the military did NOT want shown. He was killed.

As far as the numbers being skewed. Yes, they are being terribly skewed in different ways. Take that to the bank. If the American public had any idea how so, they would be outraged. Investigate this. You will discover it is more true than you know. It's all about PR. Keepin' the good spin, or the best possible spin onnit. It's always been this way with the military.

When we were getting ready to ship out for Desert Shield we were in formation one day and our commander gave us all a (blanket) direct order - we were NOT, and I mean under threat of court martial - NOT to speak to ANYONE in the media - who had their trucks all camped right outside the main gate at Ft. Campbell.

This has been worse than Vietnam. Earthtone brought up a good point, and it's solid fact, more people have died in Iraq in one year than the first three years in Vietnam. Bad frocken bizness.

'Course, I blame that completely on the Pentagon NeoCons who wouldn't know what end to aim an M-16 if their life depended on it.

Ran across this information:

"U.S. MILITARY CLEARS SOLDIERS IN
CAMERAMAN'S DEATH".....September 22, 2003
www.pbs.org...

"Iraq: US Army killing of journalists Stressed soldiers claim lives and lose wars"
www.indexonline.org...

Excerpt:

"Reuters cameraman Mazen Dana did not take his job lightly. He was a veteran of years of frontline work in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, many times honoured by journalists and media freedom groups.

His courage seemed limitless to those who saw him at work. Yet like most of the media in Baghdad, and almost all the Iraqi civilian population, he was cautious of the US military. Dana was shot dead on 17 August by a US soldier while filming near the US-run Abu Ghraib prison in western Baghdad.

Moments before he was killed, he told a colleague that working up close distance to the American military was not a problem "as long as they don't shoot me". It sounds flippant, but most of the international media in Iraq and all the Iraqi civilian population approach US troops in Iraq with extreme care, and for the civilians, if possible not at all.

The constant threat that comes from being on the streets makes them trigger happy - around 60 soldiers have been killed and hundreds injured in Iraq since US President George W. Bush declared an 'end' to major combat operations.

The killers are in civilian clothes and deliberately mix with crowds to cover their actions. The appalling heat, up to 50 degrees, is endured by troopers weighed down by up to 40 kilos of kit and weaponry and corseted by tight body armour. Sand mites, dehydration, and heat rashes add to the discomfort."


And of major interests is this site showing a quick analysis of different camaramen with camara's. Worth a look to see what I was implying about a soldier having mere seconds to make a decision on whether to shoot or not:
www.technochitlins.com...

Maybe it will work here:


In such and as applied to the above rotating image, look at this animated GIF and guess which is the camera and which the anti-tank missile. Then imagine the same quiz with the person a hundred meters away, in the middle of a crowd or around a corner, etc. (May have to refresh to get it to revolve).


IMHO, was this a real and true case of shoot first and live, or wait and see if your alive from the wait?



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Ran across this information:

"U.S. MILITARY CLEARS SOLDIERS IN
CAMERAMAN'S DEATH".....September 22, 2003
"Iraq: US Army killing of journalists Stressed soldiers claim lives and lose wars"


Maybe it will work here:


In such and as applied to the above rotating image, look at this animated GIF and guess which is the camera and which the anti-tank missile. Then imagine the same quiz with the person a hundred meters away, in the middle of a crowd or around a corner,
50 meters (55 yards)
Manza was with a number around half a dozen journalists outside the prison, why would they target one out of a group of people with cameras?




etc. (May have to refresh to get it to revolve).


IMHO, was this a real and true case of shoot first and live, or wait and see if your alive from the wait?

These articles highlight the same points I am making about the incident, with the exception of the fact that the U.S army has cleared it's own men of any wrong doing. It could quite well be an 'irritated soldier' who shot someone because of 'heat rash and sand mites' as that article pointed out, stress and fear of attack leading to them shooting the guy. Due to the disturbing story that Manzen apparently told before his death relating to the U.S army I think it is nessecery to look into wether or not this was an accident.

I would really like to see the camera footage manzen shot becuase apparently the U.S troops knew they were there. Seeing as they knew he was there why was it so difficult to recognise a man with a camera in a gruop of journalists, waiting at a place they had been cleared to be ny U.S troops. Something is wrong here.

I'm going to try dig up more on this .

This is interesting, not specifically relating to Manzen, but certainly on topic in terms of the cause of his death.

Briefing to the 60th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights

Extracts:

"Human rights and humanitarian law violations in postwar Iraq. Since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, the military forces of the Occupying Powers in Iraq have been responsible for human rights and international humanitarian law violations. Those in authority have failed to investigate many of these violations or to hold accountable those responsible. Armed groups opposed to the occupation have committed war crimes by carrying out attacks that targeted or indiscriminately harmed civilians.

In the initial aftermath of the overthrow of the government, the United States and United Kingdom failed to meet their responsibility to protect civilians under their control by allowing a serious security vacuum to develop, giving rise to conditions of extreme lawlessness. Months later, women in particular have remained vulnerable to sexual violence and abduction and neither Iraqi nor occupation authorities have provided sufficient protection or redress.

Many subsequent violations have related to excessive or indiscriminate use of force by troops resulting in serious harm to civilians....... In Baghdad alone between May 1 and September 30, 2003, Human Rights Watch documented the deaths of twenty Iraqi civilians in questionable circumstances and collected information concerning ninety-four civilians killed by U.S. troops in circumstances that merited investigations. In the five investigations that the U.S. said it had completed as of the beginning of October, four concluded that soldiers had operated within official rules of engagement.

U.S. troops have carried out other actions that appear to have violated international humanitarian law. On at least four occasions between mid-November 2003 and early January 2004, U.S. troops demolished homes of relatives of suspected insurgents or former officials in order to punish the families or compel their cooperation. On two of these occasions, U.S. troops took into custody family members not themselves suspected of wrongdoing � in effect, taking hostages, a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. Human Rights Watch is also concerned about the prolonged detention without charge or due process of thousands of Iraqis since the beginning of the war. "

You don't hear this stuff on Fox news. . . .

The UN makes a reccomendation..
"Request the Special Rapporteur to monitor and report on steps by the Occupying Powers and Iraqi governing authorities to safeguard forensic and documentary evidence and ensure custodial standards that will preserve the evidentiary value of such evidence in future criminal trials of those alleged to be responsible for crimes against humanity, war crimes, and genocide. "

So essentially the UN wants the occupying force to be monitered. Theyare questioning their methods by the looks of things.

As with your last post and mentioning this earthtone:

"The UN makes a reccomendation..
"Request the Special Rapporteur to monitor and report on steps by the Occupying Powers and Iraqi governing authorities to safeguard forensic and documentary evidence and ensure custodial standards that will preserve the evidentiary value of such evidence in future criminal trials of those alleged to be responsible for crimes against humanity, war crimes, and genocide. "

So essentially the UN wants the occupying force to be monitered. Theyare questioning their methods by the looks of things."



In the advent of war or conflict there is and are always going to questions, controversial or not controversial, agreed? The situation that you bring forth is a tragedy and "if" there was an implied "malicious intent", and is backed by a judicial finding and review, then those involved should be punished.
As to what you have mentioned that I quoted above....I would agree, there should be some sort of independent monitoring done...as to it being the UN, I have serious reservations.


regards
seekerof