I don't see why athiets disbelieve in a god.

God doesn't have to be a human. God can be anything. The term god is used to describe the force thing or person or whatever that created the universe. Things aren't made out of thing air. Yes, an atom was split, or, something caused the big bang, but, what is the likelihood that a whole universe like this would have ever been created without some intelligent design on it? Maybe there is a god but we can't prove it because it's unobservable, but, when we think about it, there has to be a god, since everything in this universe is so organized. That's my evidence for the existence of god. That the universe is with order. If there was no force bringing the universe into order the universe would be in chaos. So I believe we can prove the existence of god through the fact that there is more order than chaos. Why are there people that don't believe in a god? Is it because they are depressed? Or is it because they don't believe in the Christian god so they don't believe that any god could exist?

What do you think about my argument for the existence of a god?

[edit on 27-5-2008 by Frankidealist35]

Who then, created God? Was it just there? Has it always been? Does it matter?

The idea of an external creator just bothers me for some reason. I prefer that we are everything and everything is us, because if you go small enough, we are. Atoms and Molecules. Maybe they are god.

"when we think about it, there has to be a god, since everything in this universe is so organized."

I fail to see your logic as you just assume that there is a god because "the universe is so organized." First, you have to define "organized" I presume you mean our current understanding of the laws of physics, or perhaps your hasty conclusion of the complexities of life. Well, the complexities of life can easily be explained without the presence of God(s) due to natural selection. Or, just because we are all ignorant of the physical universe and you just assume that there has to be a creator. I choose rational thought and science to help bring all us closer to the answer, of which I will admit, is a slow, but I stress, a rational method in our attempt to reach an answer. Makes more sense to me to question and learn rather than to blindly believe in the tooth fairy or unicorns as faith, or , is by definition, irrational.

Contrary to what one may gather from what I wrote, I'm not out to bash faith; I just laugh when persons jump to conclusions without asking real questions. And sorry, "God created everything" doesn't cut it because my response is, "prove it."

You stated, "Maybe there is a god but we can't prove it because it's unobservable." Sorry, but the absence of evidence is not evidence for the contrary. Last time I checked, there is no evidence for the tooth fairy. So you are saying since there is no evidence, the tooth fairy (or something similar to) has to exist.

You stated, "If there was no force bringing the universe into order the universe would be in chaos. So I believe we can prove the existence of god through the fact that there is more order than chaos. "

What do you define as a force? And what's the proof of the absence of this force would result in chaos? Again, pure speculation and not at all evidence.

If you believe in something more than the world you see, be my guest. I certainly hope it makes you feel better and makes you a better person for it. Just because you have your viewpoints doesn't mean that everyone else shares it, and I know you understand this as you simply asked the questions in the first place (and I commend you for it).

In summation, I stress you continue to ask questions, but remember for some people, you will be opening a whole can of worms from close minded people (often tend to be zealots).

Best wishes!

reply to post by Frankidealist35

What do you think about my argument for the existence of a god?

I find it fascinating. I agree with what you say, but here is why it intrigues me: before I read the Gospels I had little or no concept of God, other than maybe 'something, somewhere out there' in a very very vague sense'. And I'm pretty certain I would never have noticed that apparent design is so intricate, so downright beautiful, that it ought really to make us stop and think.

This thread is one of the first I ever read on ATS, and it still blows my mind:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Not only are the videos it contains some of my favourites on ATS, they are some of my all-time lifetime favourites, which is why I've selected this as one of my three favourite threads in my profile. (There are more than just the initial two short videos - keep going, and towards the end you'll come across several more.) They are astounding.

If we, being so intelligent, couldn't possibly make an organic, self-replicating, self-healing living entity - even an insect - how could living things possibly be the result of chance? The implication would be that chance is infinitely more intelligent than the human race, with all its knowledge and technology. And there's an awful lot more than insects on this planet, not to mention human beings.

As I say, I can only see this with hindsight. You must be a deep thinker.



reply to post by Kronik98

I prefer that we are everything and everything is us, because if you go small enough, we are.

Just wondering, are you going to stop at what seems preferable, or keep digging?

If we were just atoms and molecules, how did they become so mind-bogglingly organized? Purposeful design is strongly indicative of... design. When archeologists dig something up they look to see if it contains indications of design: a purposeful shape, or some artistry. Look at the animal world. Look at the colours, shapes and patterns just at an external level: there is a lot more than camouflage. I'm convinced there is deliberate beauty.

Sometimes modern artists use random processes to create their work: paint streaming from cans tied to string hanging from a ceiling, and given a push, for example. The results are interesting, but not beautiful in the way real art is. (Could you imagine a portrait or a landscape being painted in this way?!)

Think of the coral-reef fish, the birds of paradise, the eagle, the giraffe, a beautiful woman. Close your eyes and think through what this world contains. To say nothing of flowers, plants and trees in their endless magnificent variety.

Who then, created God? Was it just there? Has it always been? Does it matter?

Boy are you asking important questions! The media and much of the modern education system try to quench people's desire to ask such things.

If there is a prime mover of everything, He was never created - it's logical, but difficult to get your head round at first. That's what 'eternal' means, though: always there, and always will be. When God revealed Himself to Moses He said His name was "I am", also translated "I am that I am".

I've got a discussion going at the moment on what 'eternity' is, which you might also find interesting:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

It's not just philosophy - the idea is to try and begin to understand how God can be eternal.

The idea of an external creator just bothers me for some reason.

That is so honest and articulate. I believe it has to do with the fact that if He's there He's my Maker, and I don't even know who He is.

The message of the Gospels and the whole Bible is: the Maker is not only real enough and intelligent enough to have made it all, He is (logically) also intelligent enough to communicate with us. He is revealed as not visible, because what is visible is just something He made. But He thinks and feels emotion, as we do. It goes as far as to say we were made in His image.

That's why, I believe, we differ from all other creatures.

If this is so, we are a lot more than atoms and molecules. Just as the essence of God is not visible, so with the essence of man. Our physical bodies are just a tent for 'the real me', the intangible, yet oh so real conscious self. That, I believe, is the essence of being human. We think, remember, reflect, ponder. We are aware of a moral dimension to our existence. Right and wrong. This is a realm beyond flesh and blood: it is the spiritual realm, and we are aware of it because we have a spirit; or, rather, are a spirit, plus a body - that just enables us to inhabit the physical earth.

Do these questions matter? Well, if what I say is correct, there is no reason to assume we cease to exist when the tent expires. What lies ahead? Now there's a question...

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
God doesn't have to be a human. God can be anything. The term god is used to describe the force thing or person or whatever that created the universe. Things aren't made out of thing air.

How very illogical of you. Things aren’t made out of thin air yet your God or creator force was? Ha ha ha! Nice try.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
Yes, an atom was split, or, something caused the big bang, but, what is the likelihood that a whole universe like this would have ever been created without some intelligent design on it?

Actually, the Big Bang Theory says nothing about what banged, why it banged or what caused it to bang. The Big Bang Theory explains the evolution of our universe based upon observable evidence.

Your second question is entirely nonsensical as we can't make any experiments that would give us a useful answer.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
Maybe there is a god but we can't prove it because it's unobservable, but, when we think about it, there has to be a god, since everything in this universe is so organized. That's my evidence for the existence of god. That the universe is with order. If there was no force bringing the universe into order the universe would be in chaos. So I believe we can prove the existence of god through the fact that there is more order than chaos.

The Universe is not getting more orderly, the overall entropy of the universe is going up, not down. The universe is slowly getting more un-orderly.

That's not evidence anyway, it's a non-sequitur.

Oh and before you ask why there's complex life on Earth, remember, the Earth is not a closed system. The sun provides us energy: en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
Why are there people that don't believe in a god? Is it because they are depressed? Or is it because they don't believe in the Christian god so they don't believe that any god could exist?

I don’t believe in any Gods because there’s no evidence in reality that supports such a belief and therefore believing in something as silly as the God of the Bible becomes nothing more than a negative drain on my mind.

There is no reason to believe in something, much less base your life around, something that is not supported by empirical evidence. We only get one life, treasure it!

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
What do you think about my argument for the existence of a god?

I think it is rubbish.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
What do you think about my argument for the existence of a god?

i honestly think it's old and doesn't hold much weight. order in the universe and its origins don't inherently imply the existence of a god.

reply to post by AveIMil

Of course while some of my statements seem to be mere assumptions to people that are skeptical I believe they hold some ground. The big bang created the universe. I didn't say that god was created out of thin air. If god is like a human and created man in his own image he is probably a scientist whom lived on some other planet. If he is dead as some people say then he probably passed away on his own planet and can't look over the universe anymore.

There has to be some force that made the universe organized. There is no reason what-so-ever to assume that the big-bang was programmed to be able to create an entire universe filled with matter and structure without anything else's in-put. You say you can't create things out of thin air yet you believe in the big bang.

I know science may contain some answers but god would have to be either external or all around us at the same time. Also, the fact that everything in the universe is so organized does prove the existence of god or some external force created the universe to some extent. All matter seems to know what to do at all times. All people seem to know where to go. They have to be guided by something. The voice in our heads may come from a super natural being that was asked to look over humans.

Animals seem to be guided by some super natural spirit too. There is even evidence of the existence of ghosts that indicates more of a spiritual world awaits us after we leave this one.

Maybe it's so hard for some of you to believe that a god exists because all of the theories you've heard about god seem a little outlandish. However, it is very possible that god exists.

I believe god exists at a quantum level. God is affecting the course of the universe. That's why quantum physics is so hard to understand because when we're studying how these particles behave in strange ways we learn more about god or about the force behind the universe.

See? God can exist. I know that the big bang theory doesn't state what caused the big bang, but, I just don't buy that the big bang created the universe, life, and everything, just like that. There must have been some outside input into the big bang. I believe the big bang was programmed to create a reality. I also believe there have probably been other big bangs but i believe these have also been programmed in much the same way.

The essence of God could be the energy that holds it all together... he is energy, he is light. It is so obvious to me, he is everywhere. It is a undeniable reality.



[edit on 5/31/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
The essence of God could be the energy that holds it all together... he is energy, he is light. It is so obvious to me, he is everywhere. It is a undeniable reality.



[edit on 5/31/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Maybe, but He created light, He created energy and He is not bound by the constraints of time and space which light and energy (as far as I know) is bound by those constraints, we are only carnal and fleshly, to understand the true nature of God, we have to have a body and mind uncorupted by sin. Sin isn't just the act of doing bad things, it's something that is physically and spiritually destructive, it is what's at the very root of what is destroying the world, so to understand something without sin, something that is beyond our spectrum of understanding, we must step into that spectrum, one day we will BW, that will be amazing!

-Jimmy

[edit on 31-5-2008 by jimmyjackblack]

reply to post by Frankidealist35


The way I see it, god is a man made concept just like time. Everything is nothing and reality is perceptual. I don't even consider myself an "Atheist," as it just seems like you're playing into heavy handed human terminology. I don't believe there is something "bigger," but have I died? Have any Atheists died and come back to verify their assumptions? Have any Christians comeback with verifiable evidence that something "more" exists? No. As in life, death is our own and even there, I think we'll make it what we want it to be.