Time travel question.

I personally think that time-travel technology is just question of time. Really. But i recently started to have my doubts that person/object from Earth's future could travel just in time and visit Earth.
Here is the reason - Earth is not standing in place , it goes around the Sun. Solar system is not stationary - it is traveling in the space with great speed. So future "tourist" will have to be traveling both in time and in space just to get to the same spot in the different time, and the bigger the time gap - the faster he must travel in the space.
Also , acceleration of two systems could be different too. So movement of physical object in time might not even be the biggest problem.
Does it mean that time "guests" will have to use spaceships in order to visit time "hosts"? Or am i simply missing something?

Consider that time is not a physical place that can be traversed using traditional mechanisms but rather a dimension that is accessible to us. The dimension moves with us and is not stationary. I believe that this may be the key to many paranormal sightings. Obviously, I have no proof of such but the more I see and the more I read, it makes this scenario more sensible.

Well, it is hard for me to just imagine it. Time is not an axis, but property of our "being"- is that what you say?
I understand that before discussing time travel it will be wise to agree upon what time itself is, however there are so many different and complicated views on it that it is hard to reach consensus. I simply go with the level of physics i still can understand. There can be time difference between two people in he twin paradox, so it can differ to the individuals who are in the same "being" interval. Thus i think that since the time - gaps are possible , there is an axis of time with past present and future.
My head now hurts!!!!! Boy it is heavy issue. If you take movie which is a set of photographs in correct order and change slide A with later slide B - it is time travel or not?

I think that time is a self imposed belief system that limits our ability to traverse it. Time, in our minds, always moves forward. And it moves faster as we get older. Think of time when you were a kid, every hour seemed like an eternity and yet today, we blink and years have gone by.

I guess what I am saying is that we have the ability to control time, or at least our perception of it. As such, I believe that we have the ability within ourselves to traverse time. Time in this regard, is a dimension of our being. Some, but not all, paranormal events may be a result of these dimensions "conficting" or infiltrating each other such that each can peer into the other. Exactly what causes these dimensions to do this is the million dollar question. When that is discovered, we will be able to "time travel" at will.

Actually the more i think about it , the more confused i become. Your theory of course has at least the same amount of credibility as mine (or what i think as mine), so i need to seriously consider it. The main problem for me that time concept is very hard to understand. I still cannot see how a person in given point of space and time can move through time disregarding that there was change in space. Of course it can be due to not be able to think outside the box.

My theory may be completely out to lunch, but not being of a scientific mind, I have a hard time grasping scientific theory that is as advanced as this.

If you think of it in terms of, for lack of a better example, a portal to the past and future. These portals open and close unknowingly and under unknown conditions. Certain areas act as such portals that allow the past to be seen in the present. UFO's and such are manifestations of the future seen in the present.

That having been said, I am aware that there has been some successes in transmitting smaller than atomic sized particles to a point only nanoseconds ahead of its time, which certainly opens the doors for the scientific method.

reply to post by gordstephan


Okay, just randomly reading through here mabye I can explain a few things

Surprising as it may be to most non-scientists and even to some scientists, Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. In 1952, in his book Relativity, in discussing Minkowski's Space World interpretation of his theory of relativity, Einstein writes:

Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.

Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now. He believed there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence. His most descriptive testimony to this faith came when his lifelong friend Besso died. Einstein wrote a letter to Besso's family, saying that although Besso had preceded him in death it was of no consequence, "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."

Most everyone knows that Einstein proved that time is relative, not absolute as Newton claimed. With the proper technology, such as a very fast spaceship, one person is able to experience several days while another person simultaneously experiences only a few hours or minutes. The same two people can meet up again, one having experienced days or even years while the other has only experienced minutes. The person in the spaceship only needs to travel near to the speed of light. The faster they travel, the slower their time will pass relative to someone planted firmly on the Earth. If they were able to travel at the speed of light, their time would cease completely and they would only exist trapped in timelessness. Einstein could hardly believe there were physicists who didn’t believe in timelessness, and yet the wisdom of Einstein's convictions had very little impact on cosmology or science in general. The majority of physicists have been slow to give up the ordinary assumptions we make about time.

The two most highly recognized physicists since Einstein made similar conclusions and even made dramatic advances toward a timeless perspective of the universe, yet they also were unable to change the temporal mentality ingrained in the mainstream of physics and society. Einstein was followed in history by the colorful and brilliant Richard Feynman. Feynman developed the most effective and explanatory interpretation of quantum mechanics that had yet been developed, known today as Sum over Histories.

Just as Einstein's own Relativity Theory led Einstein to reject time, Feynman’s Sum over Histories theory led him to describe time simply as a direction in space. Feynman’s theory states that the probability of an event is determined by summing together all the possible histories of that event. For example, for a particle moving from point A to B we imagine the particle traveling every possible path, curved paths, oscillating paths, squiggly paths, even backward in time and forward in time paths. Each path has an amplitude, and when summed the vast majority of all these amplitudes add up to zero, and all that remains is the comparably few histories that abide by the laws and forces of nature. Sum over histories indicates the direction of our ordinary clock time is simply a path in space which is more probable than the more exotic directions time might have taken otherwise.

Other worlds are just other directions in space, some less probable, some equally as probable as the one direction we experience. And some times our world represents the unlikely path. Feynman's summing of all possible histories could be described as the first timeless description of a multitude of space-time worlds all existing simultaneously. In a recent paper entitled Cosmology From the Top Down, Professor Stephen Hawking of Cambridge writes; “Some people make a great mystery of the multi universe, or the Many-Worlds interpretation of quantum theory, but to me, these are just different expressions of the Feynman path integral.”

(below is not in book)

What is still not quite resolved in modern physics is how to properly combine Quantum theory with Einstein's Relativity Theory. It appears evident that time is purely a direction in space but how then do we explain the uncertainty of quantum mechanics? Why does it appear that God plays dice with the world. The two theories, each having been proven by their usefulness, do of course tell the same story about this one universe, but we just haven't learned yet to hear the story right. The best modern theory going is probably the No Boundary Proposal, put fourth by Stephen Hawking and Jim Hartle. This theory introduces a second reference of time which has been inappropriately named Imaginary time. Hawking, writes of the no boundary proposal, "The universe would be completely self contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE."

In my book Everything Forever, and here at my website, I explain how fourth dimensional spatial directions travel through a series of independent three dimensional block-like spaces, which in science we call states, but they can also be thought of simply as patterns. Hawking has already proposed that imaginary time can be found at right angles to ordinary time. I further explain that it is possible in an objective way to understand the universe to be like a book or a movie film. Each moment is a separate universe just like each frame of a movie or page of a book is separate. Yet those separate states simultaneously form the larger whole of the movie or the book. Seeing each moment as a continually existing place sheds light on why particles would then travel as a quantum wave, rather than linearly from point a to point b. This is explained better elsewhere, but if each moment of ordinary time is a solid, static, "block of now", or field of space, then time each new moment is a distinctly different universe. What we call time is a spatial direction that travels through many static three dimensional universes.

In such a model, what we call time is created purely out of space. Special directions in space travel through each static three dimensional space, therein producing a new realm of space beyond three dimensions, which we call time. The interesting quality this produces, is how the inhabitants of this fourth dimension of space travel a linear path from past to future, but the surrounding environment of each path is shifting from one pattern to the next. This sends particles from one position in four dimensional space to the next without moving linearly. As a result, each individual observer in the fourth dimension experiences a continuous linear time, even though everything in their immediate environment is moving sequentially from place to place. Hence each temporal environment of four dimensional space is constructed relative to each independent observer.

One can imagine oneself smoothly traveling a direct and interconnected path through time, but in looking around at one's environment, one sees that all other directions of time are broken, causing particles to appear to sequentially leap from one place to another. Paradoxically, everyone observes their own path and experience of time to be linear, while all else around them is sequential.

In fact, when we explore time as a direction through many 3D spaces, we find qualities of curvature, time dilation, and spatial contraction, precisely as relativity describes those qualities within our own spacetime.

There is one quote I have found from Einstein which is more or less a contemplative mental thought about the notion of infinite spaces, which doesn't directly relate to my own approach of describing a shape to all possible spaces, but it does at least open up the subject of an infinite number of spaces to speculation. And it also shows the open minded nature of Einstein's thoughts about empty space, which some have thought were closed.

When a smaller box s is situated, relativity at rest, inside the hollow space of a larger box S, then the hollow space of s is a part of the hollow space of S, and the same "space," which contains both of them, belongs to each of the boxes. When s is in motion with respect to S, however, the concept is less simple. One is then inclined to think that s encloses always the same space, but a variable part of the space S. It then becomes necessary to apportion to each box its particular space, not thought of as bounded, and assume that these two spaces are in motion with respect to each other...

Before one has become aware of this complication, space appears as an unbounded medium or container in which material objects swim around. But it must be remembered that there is an infinite number of spaces, which are in motion with respect to each other...

The concept of space as something existing objectively and independent of things belongs to pre-scientific thought, but not so the idea of the existence of an infinite number of spaces in motion relatively to each other. This latter idea is indeed unavoidable, but is far from having played a considerable role even in scientific thought.

I can testify that Einstein's speculations revealed here concerning infinite spaces in motion do at least carry us in the right direction in how they suggest space might have an unseen and possibly infinite content. Similar ideas were introduced by David Bohm, who claimed there are two kinds of order in nature, what he called explicate order and implicate order. Implicate order for Bohm was a way of acknowledging how quantum mechanics reveals a hidden order where our world is influenced by the whole of all possible states. However, that order is much more visible than Bohm ever realized, as explained in part two.

Unfortunately it wasn't until Einstein died that scientists began to consider the a Many Worlds Theory in science. It's safe to say that in Einstein's time we were still getting used to the idea of the Big Bang, adjusting to the ever more visible vast sea of other galaxies, and the possibility of alien life on other planets. The universe and reality were still primarily considered purely solid and material based. Quantum theory, which eventually led to the theory of many worlds, had not yet fully withstood the test of time. Einstein even rejected its implications, saying "God does not play dice" with the world, even as he himself established that there is more to the universe than a single evolving moment of now.

In my explorations of timelessness I reveal that ordinary space is not merely full of other empty spaces, but empty space is actually the whole of all physical realities; all the universes of the many worlds theory. Profound as it may be, if the theories I propose are correct, space is full, rather than empty. Material things are less than the fullness of space. In fact, it may be that space must include all possibilities in order to seem empty to us. So in summary, the universe we see is just a fragment nested in a timeless (everything) whole, rather than a single material world magically arisen above some primordial nothing. All universes exist without beginning or end in the ultimate arena of time, and each moment we experience exists forever.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Whats done is done I'm afraid.

But energy processes are being renewed.
Matter can not be destroyed, just made smaller.

Time goes slower might have been some Einstein result nonsense,
to what, an imaginary scenario of high velocity particles.

Time, nothing can be done with it, it goes on with us in different forms.
Non existent, baby, grown up, dead, heaven, hell...

Don't go past heaven.

ED: UFOs do not travel in time. We are lucky to see one sparking
across the sky or stuck in one place. They are perhaps 100 year
old static electricity inventions of Tesla that do not fly well at times.


[edit on 5/26/2008 by TeslaandLyne]

reply to post by peacemaker33


What would happen if the both person(one is on spaceship with speed of light and other is on earth) would carry a electronic clock (rigid clock)
Will the time of clock on spaceship will STOP ????

>>>pritam mhatre

Time is a funny thing. It can be thought of as a dimension at times, but it isn't.

Like a dimension, you cannot jump points along it. You have to travel the distance between.

However, the interesting thing about time is, it can be slowed down, and sped up in relation to an outside observer.

Which means, to someone observing from outside whatever device you use to manipulate time with, they can either view your actions as being faster than what should be possible, or slower.
You can't really pause time, but through manipulation of the interaction of matter and energy, it is theoretically possible to speed up and slow down events in one area, in relation to another.

We haven't managed this yet. But we know time is a relative variable now, thanks to Einstein and a few others.

But you cannot jump points along a time line.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge

Also , acceleration of two systems could be different too. So movement of physical object in time might not even be the biggest problem.
Does it mean that time "guests" will have to use spaceships in order to visit time "hosts"? Or am i simply missing something?

WTF???? Do you really expect somebody here on ATS to know the answer to this question?????

What's next, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin???

Originally posted by jamie83

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge

Also , acceleration of two systems could be different too. So movement of physical object in time might not even be the biggest problem.
Does it mean that time "guests" will have to use spaceships in order to visit time "hosts"? Or am i simply missing something?

WTF???? Do you really expect somebody here on ATS to know the answer to this question?????

What's next, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin???

Pfft, you're just not trying hard enough.

Now firstly, to work on this line of thought with you, I'll have to abandon my pre-conceived notion that jumping points in time is not possible, and assume for the moment it is.


Now. As you stated, yes. If you were to simply remain in your physical location and skip back say, 20 years, you wouldn't be in the same physical space. The rotation of the earth, and it's orbit would place you somewhere other than where you started.

Now... some would ask, why not just jump to the same Date and Time of 20 years ago... you should be in the same place then right?
Wrong.

The earths orbit is not as stable as we'd like to think, and (here's the kicker) the universe is expanding. If you were to attempt to line up the date and time, you'd still be very surprised to find yourself drifting in space, suffocating, and staring at the earth from a VERY long distance away.


Okay, so now that we've come this far...

Acceleration.

Acceleration of course is dependent on time itself. A change in speed versus time.
Now, we know that the relative passage of time is determined by the interaction of matter and energy... and can be used in an equation as being influenced by mass.

So basically, if anything is near the earth that wasn't before... such as an asteroid etc... time itself would have a slightly different aspect to it... which would mean, if you were traveling at 100 Kph in your own time... when you make the jump to 20 years ago, that 100Kph just might end up being something else.

You could jump back, thinking you've got enough time to stop again, and subsequently smash right into a wall that was supposed the be hours away.


So...

If you were able to travel back in time, you would have to go to the location in space that you know the place you want to arrive at occupied at that time. Taking into account, rotation, orbit, the expansion of the universe, and and other distortions of mass that might have affected the earth since then.

And somehow, you would have to know if your speed of time is at least relatively the same as the speed of time as it was back then (I have no idea how to do this), otherwise, you might be re-approaching the 20year ago earth a little faster than you should like



Of course, all of this is ridiculous in the first place, because we just can't jump points in time in the first place... so everything here-in is speculation.

reply to post by johnsky


Thank you for your response. I gave this issue some thought and definitely reconsider my "time-travel possible for humans" approach, so your post came in time ( couldn't resist .
To allow time travel we will have to add another "dimension" to our perception of universe and IF we somehow will be able to do it - we will become something totally different - "them".

peacemaker33
Thank you also, however since i am a little "thick" this very valuable info ,sadly, was somewhat spent on me. I bought book by Hawkins and , even though he tries to present it as simple as he can, i still got stuck.

jamie83

Actually there are a lot of very smart people on ATS. I do not know how many of them could fit on head of pin though.

Time and Motion ( space ) are interlaced with each other. If all in the Universe ground to a stop, then time would stop as well. If motion accelerates, time does also. But to manipulate Time around the order of Motion, is not possible.

What would the foundation be to skip through moments in time without experiencing them...If something in the universe existed that allowed Time to circumvent Motion, The system breaks down, like a river running into itself. Today, tomorrow, and yesterday would all coexist in Chaos, there is no evolution, there is no completion. it is a jumbled mess and organization will never realize itself.

An exploratory research projects found early indications to possible teleport and time travel mechanisms. The process involves bending time and space. Theoretical molecular physics provides a model of constructing a computer-simulated environment of “dark matters in isolation of any gravitational effects.” The computer simulation shows how dark energy or matter can help in bending time as well as space.

The concept can be mind-boggling. When perfected, the technologies can help us travel thousands of miles instantaneously. We will be able to time travel in the future or in the past. Space travel can happen easily and we will be able to explore the whole Universe and multiple Universes.

The whole concept came from reverse engineering concepts of UFO propagation and propulsion systems. When computer models were asked to solve the puzzle of living beings crossing endless radiation belts in the space protecting planets and stars and traveling at a speed several hundred or thousand times faster than the speed of light, the systems politely pointed towards theoretical impossibilities.

The speed of light is 670,000,000 miles per hour – a number no human being can ever physically sustain in any craft for a long or short period of time. Does that mean UFOs are unmanned or extra-terrestrial beings are totally different? It is possible but not likely. Theory of evolution in the Universe says that intelligent life forms are abundant in the Universe but they have evolved in a similar way.

This made the researchers aware of some other means by which time and unlimited space travel can be made possible in a short span of time.

UFOs appear and disappear all on a sudden. Their flight pattern based on recently declassified reports from Air Forces have made it clear, even with an electromagnetic stealth there is something even more unimaginable working for their all on a sudden disappearance.

The research team focused on the structural dynamics of “dark matter”. But gravitational interference caused a major problem. The dark matter is the root cause of anti-gravity in the space. Gravity is affected by the planetary and cosmic level structural disturbances in the dynamics of electromagnetic flux.

If by some means these gravitational effects can be neutralized, the dark matter creates wonder. Time and space can be bent to make unimaginable things happen.

In the absence of gravity, these wonders of theoretical physics can be controlled to create the propagation and navigation systems through space and time.

It is an early indication where the scientists and engineers have started to focus to make instantaneous time and space travel possible. There are also indications that besides dark energy, there are other wonder objects that can make a specified space and time collapse into a point and then expand the same to its original configuration.

www.indiadaily.com...

Let me tell you a secret. Time doesn't exist. Its only usefull as a tool for measurement on a graph. Much like an inch, centimeter, or liter - it is a imaginary concept used as a useful measurement tool. It is a man-made concept and nothing more. Time travel doesn't exist because the only difference between "the past" or "the present" is simply states of mattter.

Every subatomic particle that exists today existed in "the past" and will continue in "the future" to exist, although not exactly in the same location. In that mannor of speaking we are concurrently in "the past," "the present," and "the future" simultaniously. No "time travel" is possible.

I know some of you would reply that time is proven to exist by astronauts and such. The phenomenon they experience IS real however the conclusion reached as to what has happened is quite flawed. Their "time" isn't moving at a different rate than our down here on earth, but rather their matter does not move at quite the same rate. Why? Consider that in space they do not have exactly the same amount of forces (both weak and strong) acting upon their own subatomic particles.

I don't have "time" to explain further but hopefully you get the idea.

[edit on 3-6-2008 by JOINTHERESISTANCE]

reply to post by peacemaker33


What we are assuming regarding time is not true but what we are experiencing is true. And what we are experiencing is correct reference.
Apart from time we all have one reference which is unique EVERYWHERE !!!!!!!
777pritam mhatre